still holding on - 5

[T-Mom]

THAT was such an emotional letter for me to read, so I am sure it was even more difficult to write it. Thank you. It is clear to me that you know what I am going through and I can't express to you my gratitude at just knowing that.

[T-Mom]

HP and U-Turn.... how are you guys doing?

[u-turn]

T-Mom
Thanks for checking up on me.

The holidays are going to be a definite struggle. In my mind this may be our last together - I am giving in and accepting this a little. this is very painful to me, but I do not express this to W - I wish I could, but I don't think it will be productive.

Had dinner at home with the W and kids and it went pretty well. I try to stay as positive as possible

S20 came home for dinner yesterday which was a surprise. Our interaction has not been very good for the last couple of months and he was going to stay away. He didn't stay here, but it was great that he decided to come home - I think he is coming here again this evening.

W hugged me a couple times yesterday and was crying a couple times. She even gave me a kiss me before she left shopping w/ d14. She has not done that (kissed/hugged) in a very long time. The hugs and kiss all seemed awkward - like we are strangers - and I am scared by this.

I actually hope for a serious talk with W this weekend. I really just want to lay all the cards on the table and figure this out. I don't think that I am going to try to initiate this or remind W that she wanted to talk, but I hope she is thinking of it. The family time seems to be affecting her a little.

[sandi2]

U-turn, when she point blank asks you when the war will be over or how long this is going to continue, I don't think that is the time to give vague answers. I think you were trying to avoid a R talk and made an attempt to validate her feelings. But speaking as a woman, I think it may have made you appear more like you were sticking your head in the sand. But I wasn't there, so I'm not sure.

Personally, I think her question presented a perfect opportunity to hit her with a truth dart. W: "When is this going to be over"? You: "At the moment, I would say when you decide to really commit to our marriage......or I get tired of waiting".

I forget, did she know you found out about OM? Did she say she would end it?

Unless she is willing to work with you on a transparency plan and she will commit to the MR, there is no point in carrying the conversation any further. In fact, it may be more effective if you got up to do something, instead of engaging in her complaints about you or her wanting a S or D. If she says she does, do not try to persuade her otherwise. Just let it go.

Be prepared (now) with an answer to these type of questions. They need to short, to the point, manly answers, instead of a needy, pleading question to her. The minute she starts with the same old stuff (which is basically complaints about you), hold up your hand in the "stop" position and tell her, "Just don't go there again. We both know the truth and I won't engage in another one of these sessions unless you are willing to discuss something other than my faults".

Look, she is willing to live like roommates until a decision is made about her and OM's future. As long as she believes you will passively accept living in those conditions, do you really think she will suddenly be attracted to you and choose you over OM?

A WW has to experience a personal loss (one you probably would not know) before she will begin feeling regrets for her A. It has to be serious enough to cause her SERIOUS doubt that OM is worth her loss. It is not your job to figure out what that particular loss may be. However, it is your job to not enable her to continue with a wayward lifestyle.

Based on your resent post, it sounds as if something did happen in FL, if she has been more distant. But without proof, you simply don't know. If she is not spending more time away from home/work than a couple of hours over the weekend, I would be tempted to think it is not a PA at this time. I don't know anything (or can't remember) the details of OM. As you said, she's still emotionally connected to him. For a woman, that is very powerful. Even after I decided to end all contact with my OM, I thought I would never shake him out of my head. But I did! However, I could not begin working on my M until I was completely over fantasy thoughts of OM.

And let me add this about the transparency. If I had not been on this board, reading about it, I would never have agreed to one. B/c I would have felt like most WAW's feel about it. So, unless it is explained to her that it is to help her and you until she gets through the withdrawal stages of the A, I would not bring it up until she has said she will commit or asks you what it will take to work things out. That JMHO.

[T-Mom]

U-Turn... Visiting with your son must have been great, especially when it was a surprise. I love what Sandi2 wrote up there...

"Be prepared (now) with an answer to these type of questions. They need to short, to the point, manly answers, instead of a needy, pleading question to her. The minute she starts with the same old stuff (which is basically complaints about you), hold up your hand in the "stop" position and tell her, "Just don't go there again. We both know the truth and I won't engage in another one of these sessions unless you are willing to discuss something other than my faults".

That sound like something that would feel empowering to say. She's good!!!

[u-turn]

Thanks Sandi!
I know I missed the opportunity for the truth dart - and I am not afraid of the ramifications of it. I want to do what's best but I squandered the moment.

She does know that I know about the A. She doesn't deny that it happened. Her claim is that it happened - not happening. I know it it still at least an EA and may be a PA. She has said, when pressed by me, that she is trying to end it. We haven't talked about the reality of the EA keeping a wall between us.

She does not yell at me. She does not complain about me (ever). When we have talked she goes back to very old complaints. I really have to be pushing for her to bring it up - It seems to be her only defense.

So what I see is this:

Look, she is willing to live like roommates until a decision is made about her and OM's future. As long as she believes you will passively accept living in those conditions, do you really think she will suddenly be attracted to you and choose you over OM?

A WW has to experience a personal loss (one you probably would not know) before she will begin feeling regrets for her A. It has to be serious enough to cause her SERIOUS doubt that OM is worth her loss. It is not your job to figure out what that particular loss may be. However, it is your job to not enable her to continue with a wayward lifestyle.

I need to hit her with this truth dart but am unsure about the best way to do it. It sometimes seems like she is on the verge of changing - but I don't know why I feel that way.

She has told me that there is no future with OM and they both know it. But that does not change the EA. I wish I could tell her what I have learned about affairs and addictions.

Sorry if I wrote something that misled you, but her trip to FL was to see family, I know this is true and I know it was not with OM. So I was hoping the time away would help her figure things out, but not much has changed besides me being more detached which I think makes her more detached.

Transparency - we have not talked about it - she hasn't said she wants to do what it takes.

[u-turn]

It was great to see him - almost brought tears to my eyes when he walked through the door. Whether he knows it or not, he has also helped me through this. I hope to help him with his troubles.

We didn't get to talk much - he only stayed for about 2 hours. He and his brother & sister were joking and wrestling - so I didn't want to interrupt that. I know my W was moved too.

Also
I need to work on my quick responses. I often miss the moment trying to think of the best thing to say. I have done this so much in my life.

[T-Mom]

I have done that a lot, too. I do think you should let her initiate a conversation, though... which means a little memorization on your part...

[u-turn]

I'm at a bit of a loss right now as to what to do - and if I could get some input maybe I can figure this out.

she is frustrated with me and my distrust.
She asked me (text) if I went through a bag of hers that she had purchased some lingerie. I was teaching and couldn't respond.

Here's how it went:
w:did you go through my VS bag
me:I did see it
w:that was meant for us until our blowout
w:oh well
w:not that you would believe me anyway
w:let's move forward and figure out what we need to do
w:you slept ok last night but we cannot keep doing this
me:I know W
w: you know what?
w: have a good day
w: I don't like where we are at...but I cannot change it
me (1 hour later): I am really sorry you feel that way. I don't like it either.
me: I know this is upsetting
me (big mistake?): I would like to actively work together on this.

That's it. I don't know what to say if anything needs to be said. I do have major trust issues with her - I want to work toward a solid R again. I am tired of being this way.

[u-turn]

the blowout she mentioned was a couple of conversations (some slightly heated where she was getting insulting) that we had over the weekend. We could not get anywhere except that neither of us liked how things are and we need to do something about it.

Neither of us want to D, but she has no confidence in us. And I have very little trust and that does not seem to be improving.