GGG, that is exactly what I was looking for. Great perspective, and thank you for the honesty. Whenever you have time, I would greatly appreciate your advice as Wonka is asking.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
But let me say that words will mean little, beyond a heartfelt apology for your actions. When the time is right, per your peanut gallery here.
But a sincere apology consists of stating the ways you believe you hurt her, based on what she said. "I am so deeply sorry for having made you feel...whatever she felt"
You take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions 100%. No, she's not perfect, but right now this is about how YOU made mistakes.
No deflecting, no "buts", or "becauses". You did what you did, you caused her pain, and you regret your actions.
No excuses: "I didn't know it was hurting you..." because after the first go-round, you DID know. "I didn't have the right help/support/info..." While that may be true to some extent, it shifts the blame.
If you didn't have the right program, then it was your responsibility to find another one, and another one...until you got it right.
You stopped trying and started hiding.
You show REAL REMORSE for harming your relationship. You RECOGNIZE the harm that it has done by sharing more with her, ways it caused distance between you that might not have occurred to her.
You TELL THE TRUTH. If she blows up, take a break, then you keep telling the truth. Her getting angry or crying is not am excuse to quit unless SHE wants to stop talking about it. You answer all her questions, no matter how it pains you. But be sensitive--you will feel under attack and there will be a tendency to think: "Okay. You want to hear all the gory details? Here ya GO!!!"
Underline this whole convo with how much you love her, always did, that she is beautiful and desirable and how your actions in no way diminished that. It was about you and your issues and not her at all.
That if you had it to do over again, with your eyes wide open, you would never, ever mistreat her like that again.
Because it was mistreating her; it was detrimental to the bond between you and it eroded so much emotional intimacy.
You tell her how you can see how it was destructive, to yourself (the shame), to her, (her self-esteem and sexual/emotional connection to you), and to your marriage, (because a healthy partnership cannot exist when there are secrets.)
There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. The first destroys R, the second is a healthy personal boundary.
Don't confuse the two.
Now all this ^^^ is just the talking part.
It means exactly nothing without a serious plan in place to get healthy and rid yourself of this crutch.
For her to pay any attention to what you say, you HAVE to prove you're serious. Long term. And don't expect her to turn cartwheels when you're just starting the road to recovery.
Anyone can START a path to recovery.
What she's going to be looking for is long term, consistent change, and PROOF of this change.
Willingness for 100% transparency, no more lies (which are the worst, really), accountability---all done ON YOUR OWN without her asking.
No wife wants be be in a situation where we're the "police". It's horrible. We want you to do it on your own and the results will speak for themselves.
---(G)GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
I'm not suggesting that you engage in heavy talks with your W all day/night this week. Step back for a while and allow her to process her own emotions. I'm putting forward questions to GGG to get the ball rolling for your benefit as I think she'll be a valuable resource for you.
I don't know about WAW, but I'm a little mentally exhausted. I hope she's like me and needs at least a 24 hr break to process. I'm not initiating anything right now
The last thing I said to her, earlier this afternoon, was an explanation of why I have read and followed NMMNG, which she found on my counter one day this fall and remarked at the subtitle (How to Get What You Want in Love, Life and Sex). She's made jokes about it since then, how I'm trying to play the field now. It was lighthearted prior to this revelation. I figured if she remembered it now, it would deepen her doubts, but if I beat her to the punch, my explanation might seem more genuine. Here is what I said:
Quote:
Also, in case you're wondering about that No More Mr Nice Guy book, I got that without any thought of sex. It was recommended to me by people from my support group when they learned about some of my tendencies (people pleaser [especially women, like {name of my minor EA partner from 2 years ago}...playing piano for them, etc], conflict avoidance ... those behaviors led to resentment, passive aggressiveness, distance, etc). I was just as surprised as you when I read the subtitle of the book (how to get what you want in love, life and sex). It is not a pick-up book, or anything. It's about being a man. I basically went the opposite of my dad when he was drunk...aggressive, loud, didn't care about others' feelings. That is a big thing that shaped me. It doesn't mean I'm trying to become a jerk, but there are times when I should be more assertive, and especially more open and honest. If I had been, we may have talked about this a long time ago.
Her response was "Maybe". Not sure if that means maybe we would have talked about it, or doubting that I didn't get it to hook up with women. I didn't ask.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
She's going to think what she's going to think. Let the book stay there, maybe she'll pick it up and see for herself it's not about picking up women.
Anyhow, the long post above ^^^. I was just going to jot a few things down, first of which was to echo what Wonka said.
Now is probably not the time for any real discussions. You'll need time to really think things through and try on the words to see how they fit you.
The biggest thing is--for the future--she needs to feel SAFE with you. That means she can trust you not to hurt her. Once we get burned, it's hard to trust.
So expect to bend over backwards demonstrating how she can trust you. That you have integrity and are honest as the day is long.
Even now, separated from my H, I have told him I expect no less from him. That I will continue to be upfront and honest about my actions and intentions, and I expect him to be a man of his word and to treat me with kindness and respect.
He's had his moments, but I have always pushed back when he has crossed the line. And just in the last few days, I see he is being kinder and more considerate of me.
Whether or not we get back together, this speaks volumes to the kind of man he is trying to be. It's a process, and it means a lot to me to see him making improvements.
I don't think most women would flip out if they found that their partners looked at porn on occasion. But the situation you described is different.
I will say that even when my W found out about it the first time, when we had only been dating for a year or so, she was extremely upset then, too. I don't blame her, I'm not saying she's wrong. I agree that it is very wrong, I always have, even while I continued doing it. Just saying here that it is an even bigger deal to her than most women.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
However, you did marry her knowing how she felt. She has a right to that feeling and many women do feel like that even about the casual viewing. I don't share that view, although I certainly understand it. You are using other women for your gratification, instead of turning to her. That can be painful. And how can we compete with a never-ending parade of enhanced bodies and crazy combinations of activities? I can see why she might feel like that.
But beware, this could sound as if you are blaming her for not being open-minded enough, and making it about HER shortcomings--not that I think you are--but the fact that she didn't like it even back then, it's irrelevant, know what I'm saying?
So--knowing you were marrying a woman who was very upset about your porn usage---what was your way around that in your mind? (Because there had to be a workaround, especially since it got out of hand by your own admission.)
I really like this conversation and I see it referenced in other threads, so please know that your honesty is having an impact here, so it must be the same for your W. In fact, it's obvious from her answers.
I said before that I'm impressed but the truth is that I'm also envious. Those moments of openness and honesty are those we fear the most yet they are the ones that provide the greatest satisfaction. There's nothing I'd want more just now than to tell my W what I learned and where I failed her. Not all of us find the right time and channel to do so.
I like especially what you and GoatGal are saying about your W's standards. Perhaps she was more shaken than the average woman, but that's who you decided to marry so you had to live up to her standards. It's even more true now as you're not in a strong negotiating position. She's made clear that this is a deal breaker for her.
Many of us might think that we didn't deserve to be separated because we were not that bad, but the truth is that we were judged by a jury of one: our spouse. It doesn't matter if 99% of spouses would have gladly endured our shortcomings: we chose a specific person who came with their set of expectations and, if we want to be with that person, we have to meet them.
Thanks for the life lessons and good luck with this conversation. Remember though: no expectations.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I hope we can all learn together. I know I've learned just as much in other threads as I have my own.
Ad far as the timing and channel for this conversation...I had been waiting months for the opportunity. It never really came, so after she told me she wanted a D, we finally split our finances, and I was finally officially moving out of the house, I figured there never was going to be a perfect time, so I came out with it. Her reception has shocked me. I knew porn used to really bother her, but I thought this was going to be a 10 minute conversation. I just thought she deserved to know, but I was also hoping it would give her hope in change. I'm not pursuing or expecting that change of heart, though. It has been very hard to hear how much it still hurts her, but I'd take this reaction over indifference.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
Mozza said: "I said before that I'm impressed but the truth is that I'm also envious. Those moments of openness and honesty are those we fear the most yet they are the ones that provide the greatest satisfaction. There's nothing I'd want more just now than to tell my W what I learned and where I failed her. Not all of us find the right time and channel to do so."
This is so good I'm going to steal it for my thread because I wish I'd said it!
