My problem is that she wants me to take some responsibility for her A, which is not going to happen. I'll take a lot of the responsibility for setting the stage, but not for what she decided to do. She also claims she wasn't really in an A since they didn't have sex. I wonder if she would look at things that way if I got myself a GF but didn't have sex with her? (Rhetorical question, I'm not going to do that)
Actually it her problem that she wants you to take responsibility. For whatever reason (ease of guilt, etc.) the bottom line is that people are individually responsible for their own decisions.
No, she probably would not look at it the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Has she ever heard the term emotional affair? I bet she has, and for women an EA can be serious. I wouldn't write off so quick they never were physical. She can claim they weren't b/c you have no proof. The less proof you have, the less she has to own.
Starsky says something about how a WAS will usually tell the facts at least one level from the truth. The more I observe and learn, the more I am in agreement with him. However, I didn't say that so you would start pushing her about it. I want you to be prepared in case it comes out in the near future.
Absolutely true. I have taken full responsibility for my role in getting our marriage to this fragile place. This did force a lot of introspection (naturally); I allowed myself to get lazy and complacent in our marriage. I fell into the trap that many men do, thinking that once she's married to you, you can be off your game, and she'll stay with you based on your years together and investment in the marriage. The sad but true fact is that many people will drop their spouses like rotting meat if they find someone they think is a better fit. The years you spend together, the family you build together, and all the conveniently forgotten happy memories become worthless to a spouse in that state of mind.
I did plenty to drive the marriage car to the cliff; but she's smoking crack if she thinks that I'll take any responsibility for her decisions once OM showed up.
It did get physical. She told me a few weeks ago that they made out in his hotel room, but that she stopped it before it got to intercourse. The only reason that I might be inclined to believe that is I read a text from her to OM after the fact, where she talked about how hard she had found it to resist him that night. She doesn't know I can read her texts so I doubt that it was written for my benefit.
It's awfully ironic that her new definition of infidelity is one level above what she says she did with him. By her logic, I can do anything I want with anyone as long as there's no intercourse. Sounds like a deal to me! [/sarcasm]
I'm not going to push her about it. To be honest, how far they went is almost a detail to me at this point. The lying, the craziness, and the cruel things she's said to me (under the guise of "honesty") hurt far worse than what she and OM might have done one night. The only way I will ever find out is if she confesses. If she wants to take any secrets to her grave, that's her problem.
Last edited by Rzrback; 01/06/1506:24 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I did not have sex with that woman (Monica Lewinski).
By decree of the president of the USA oral sex doesn't count as sex.
Ludicrous.
Quit snooping and interpreting. Get on with your relationship with W and boundary on no OM. You need full disclosure on OM with W and to move on. If you sense W has disclosed then leave this behind you both. Use the Hilary Clinton manoeuvre with grace and dignity. What a lady, DB role model on how to deal with an OW or two. Whatever your views on her politics, she maximised GAL and PMA for her sanity.
In order to move on you will need to leave the past in the past. If you want M with this W then live in the present. Whether it's EA/PA or anything between it's inappropriate, but it needs to be let go as long as it is past.
Stillness Vanilla
Last edited by Vanilla; 01/07/1507:25 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
For the record, she says that oral counts as sex and that didn't happen either.
OK, fine, I can accept that as full disclosure and move on. To be honest I don't give the OM or the A much thought day to day, it just sounds like it because it keeps coming up when I post here. The snooping I did was weeks ago after she confessed. I haven't checked her phone since.
Secretary of State is a little beyond the scope of my GAL plans, but I see your point Vanilla. :-)
The therapist asked me how I felt about things during our last session. I didn't really know how to answer. I don't feel much rage or anger, or even sadness anymore. I don't know if I've done a little too good a job detaching, or if I'm just emotionally exhausted at this point.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I can't believe it's been 5 days since my last post. Time flies when you're having fun :-)
I took some comp time last Friday so we had a long weekend together. Some deep discussion but we did mundane things as well. Seemed to have a good time; we watched a ridiculously bad sci-fi movie on Saturday, curled up together, laughed. No breakthroughs, but it felt like we might have actually been piecing a bit. Perish the thought!
By Sunday night, her life was total crap (her words), everything was bad, there was no way we could ever get back on track, yada, yada, yada. I think if she sees even a glimmer of her old feelings for me, she shuts down. To piece, she needs to trust me, and by definition, make herself vulnerable to me. That's not something she's ever been good at, and not just with me. With her it's all about her fear, her resentment, her mistrust, her, her, her.
I've been really doing well the last few weeks; PMA, GAL, been getting productive again at work. Starting to enjoy some female attention like I haven't had in years. Not going anywhere with that, just enjoying it. I had even gotten myself to the point where I was almost looking forward to her pulling the trigger on our marriage so I could get on with life. If it was our destiny to D, then let's get it over with. The limbo is worse.
Things were going along fine until yesterday afternoon. W had given me a pic of us taken at a Christmas party a few weeks ago to pin on my cubicle wall. I had taken it to work, but couldn't bring myself to put it up...too depressing to look at, like it was a lie. I stuck it in a file folder. I was looking through that folder for some other papers and ran across the picture. I almost lost it. Almost broke down right there in my office. I sat at my desk for the remainder of the day, trying to look busy but mostly just busy fighting back tears. I wanted and needed her. I made it through the rest of the day and got home to her, grabbed her and wouldn't let go. We sat down and talked, both cried. I was pissed at myself for showing her any kind of neediness, but I couldn't stop.
She listened as I told her what happened and what I was feeling. She listened for a few minutes, held me....and promptly turned the discussion back to HER pain.
Geez.
That ended my tears in a heartbeat. I was furious, though I kept it under control. There I was, being vulnerable to HER. Needing HER. Running home to be with HER. She's so wrapped up in herself that it doesn't even occur to her to think about the pain I'm in. I know I shouldn't be surprised at this, but it never fails to shock. Oh, she wasn't being cruel or insulting, she just can't get the discussion off of herself. I did point this out to her and I think it hit home; she broke down in tears and apologized for being so selfish. Whether the lesson sticks or not remains to be seen. It did end my depressed state as I started to wonder if this is who I want to fight for any more.
I had a bad afternoon, but I'm back on top this morning. Safe to say I learned my lesson. I won't be going back to her for comfort any time soon.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I hate to say it, but it's obvious to me that your wife still has never really credibly feared losing you. Your "I will work on this marriage, no matter what" stance oozes from every interaction with her, and unfortunately unless and until she feels like she may have blown it with you, you will never change the current who's-pursuing-whom dynamic here.
I'm not saying that -- in piecing -- the dynamic can't (or shouldn't) be roughly "50/50" -- it should. But at the BEGINNING of piecing, the formerly wayward spouse needs to pursue the betrayed spouse's emotional needs, big-time.
I've never seen that from her, and I've never seen you communicate to her that you needed it for her to come back to the marriage.
I've been in the minority here, and I've kept quiet because you perceived yourself to be on an upward track with her, but I still don't think she's on board here. Still VERY doable and fixable, IMHO, as she obviously loves you and you two have so much shared history, but I still think a "I've decided that this isn't working for me either" confrontation needs to happen.
I had a bad afternoon, but I'm back on top this morning. Safe to say I learned my lesson. I won't be going back to her for comfort any time soon.
See, that's just it. If you ARE in piecing, then now is the time -- after months of having to deny yourself the comfort -- you SHOULD be able to turn to your wife, at least occasionally, for comfort. Reconciliation should be all about the betrayed spouse getting their needs met again, while the formerly wayward spouse makes amends and the two of you work together on the marriage as feelings slowly return.
Has the OM come back to town yet? Can't remember the date he was suppose to show up, and W wanted to have dinner with him.
If she is still pondering this idea of seeing him "for clarity" . then that is keeping her in the WW mode.
Another sign that she's still in that frame of mind, is as you said....everything is about her feelings.
Quote:
I think if she sees even a glimmer of her old feelings for me, she shuts down.
No, that is the thinking of a LBH, not the WAW.
It takes a lot of maturity on the part of the H going into piecing. Honestly, I don't believe you two are "in" piecing yet. You may be in the process of crossing the bridge to get there, but either one of you could turn tail and run at any moment. If you look at the rough waters, you will be afraid to continue (isn't worth it, can't deal with limbo, blaming, etc.). You sound as unsure as she does.
IMO, first order of business is an agreement to a transparency plan. And......don't do like TO did and not include looking at the cell phone without notice. TO's H did not do the work and now he is guarding his cell phone and sliding right back to the other side again. Being accountable is necessary for her. Her WAW nature will detest it, but if she is serious about saving her M, she will do it. Here's the thing, if neither of you have anything to hide, you should not have a problem with it.
You talk about how she's going to have to trust "you". I would not tell her those words, b/c neither of you can fully trust the other one right now. So if you have a transparency plan, it's best that you don't crow about how she will just need to trust you. See what I mean? I know you are referring to her trusting you in a different area, but she will be hypersensitive about that issue and feel that she is under the microscope....while you are playing control cop. So have the transparency a two-way street (even though it is really about her staying on track, I think both of you need it.)
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I hate to say it, but it's obvious to me that your wife still has never really credibly feared losing you. Your "I will work on this marriage, no matter what" stance oozes from every interaction with her, and unfortunately unless and until she feels like she may have blown it with you, you will never change the current who's-pursuing-whom dynamic here.
I'm not saying that -- in piecing -- the dynamic can't (or shouldn't) be roughly "50/50" -- it should. But at the BEGINNING of piecing, the formerly wayward spouse needs to pursue the betrayed spouse's emotional needs, big-time.
I've never seen that from her, and I've never seen you communicate to her that you needed it for her to come back to the marriage.
I've been in the minority here, and I've kept quiet because you perceived yourself to be on an upward track with her, but I still don't think she's on board here. Still VERY doable and fixable, IMHO, as she obviously loves you and you two have so much shared history, but I still think a "I've decided that this isn't working for me either" confrontation needs to happen.
Just my two cents.
Starsky
I guess I'm still unclear on this "not working for me" talk would need to be like. Every time I work on that, it sounds like an ultimatum. How is this different?
Last night was very eye-opening. I guess I should have known that she's still not there yet. I thought I was on an upward track, but apparently not as much as I had hoped.
Last edited by Rzrback; 01/13/1502:59 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
. then that is keeping her in the WW mode.