Mozza (7) + Links to success stories

[sandi2]

While I easily get that pursuing is off-putting, it's so counter-intuitive to accept that refusing to interact and meet with her will draw her closer... I'm afraid she'll never come to miss me because she'll remember me as the guy she left, not the man I'm becoming. But I do it. I do it.

I understand how you would be afraid. It is a man's nature (I think) to pursue. Pursuing is how you got the girl the first time, so it only makes sense to you to do it again. Only with a WAW in an A, it has a different dynamic. Remember Mozza, she wanted what she didn't have? Same thing applies here. If she believes she can't have you so easily, her nature will draw her in closer. It is the way of human beings.

To be fair, during the nine days of in-house separation, I was the one soliciting her and she was very distant. Since she left, I've given her space, as per DB principles, and the roles have somewhat reversed. She's the one initiating all communications, trying to engage with fun emails and calls. Also, the day after I said let's communicate only about the kids, she managed to contact me three times about them. So she wants more than I give her. Maybe it's working.

It will as long as you have the right kind of spirit about it. A lot has been said about anger over on HP's thread. It is very important in this stage of your stitch that you not act as if you are mad at her or wanting to punish her. If you do, then that will send her away for good. I know it is difficult to get it just right, and it is not easy for me to describe in words. I am guilty of using the character of Rhett Butler in his way with Scarlett. She would try all her feminine wiles and he would just grin (and sometimes laugh) at her, as if he knew exactly what she was trying to do.....and it wasn't going to work on him. Although he got a kick out of her childlike ways, he definitely drew the line at some of her bad behavior. And when he finally had enough and walked away, she immediately set out to get him back again. In the sequel to Gone With the Wind, "Scarlett", he told her it was never a question of loving her....but living with loving her. That is what you have to do, Mozza, learn to live with loving her. We aren't asking you to stop loving her.

Is she really gone? I admit I haven't accepted it yet. It's crazy, under my sitch, but I feel like we're in this conversation about our R, that she's showing me the extent of the pain I caused her, and that she wants to know I love her enough to man up and become a better H.

She is gone for now. Is she gone for good? IDK, that remains to be seen. However, I have seen many LBH's say about the same thing you have said here, and I don't know that I ever remember a WAW who was in an A saying those things. B/c I don't believe she is thinking along those lines when she gets involved with another man. When she emotionally left the M, she had given up on you becoming better/different or having a better MR. I don't think I have ever seen a LBH express the correct thoughts of the WAW mind yet. And don't take this the wrong way, but since so many LBH's say similar things, I have to wonder if it is their excuse to themselves to not turn loose. "She wants me to fight for the marriage". Not if she's with another guy.

Something in me believes that if I detach, I will lose her forever.

Yet, you admit that just pulling back has drawn her in. I still think maybe you are seeing detaching as a negative action, instead of positive. A lot of people have a problem getting the entire concept. Maybe if we could think of a better term........

What could it be? Telling me she didn't love me anymore, leaving our home, finding an OM, moving in with him... None of this worked. I'm thick. Probably stupid.

No, you are not thick or stupid. Everyone has their own threshold for pain, right? Same thing here. Only you will know when it's time to move on. We push about detaching b/c that is what is best (mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically) for the LBS while the WAS is going through their crisis.

I think for many men, their ego becomes an issue. As you said, this is the first time for you and you really don't know how to deal with it. From what I have read on the boards, some men get too focused on getting her back (like in "winning") and aren't really doing the work they should be doing on themselves throughout the process. So many who have "won" the W back again, then has a big problem with resentment and forgiveness and are on the verge of becoming the WAS themselves.

[Mozza]

I may not have the same LBS experiences that some here on the board have had, but before I met my H I was in love with another young man. He broke my heart and I do know how it feels to be rejected. I am not sure if it was my pride or self respect, but I was determined I would not sit around and grieve over him. I refused to cry over what may have been or how badly I had been hurt. I made myself move forward, and I knew nothing about detaching back then.......but that was really what I was doing. I realize this is a very poor comparison to your stitch, b/c we were not M and did not have hildren. But, my point is that I believe one has to want to detach, be determined, and start doing the necessary action to get there. And, as long as you are afraid of "losing" what you have already lost.......you will never accomplish detaching from her emotionally.

Thanks for sharing. You're right, the kids throw a wrench in the whole thing. I'm afraid that if I manage not to love her anymore and she comes back, I will be the one who threw away our family life and the stability and presence I wanted for my kids.

As I wrote before, we're in my country now but she's from a different continent. Our lives will become a maze once we have different partners with their own lives. She wants to go back in a few years (she told me so), but I might not go with her if we're separated. I've no family or friends where she's from. Oh, the mess.

That is why you have so much trouble with boundaries, b/c in your mind, you fear it will cause you to lose her. Not meeting her for lunch was a step in the right direction. That is an example of determining to take detaching steps.

Thanks. It went even further when she asked why I didn't want to go to lunch and I told her that I needed the space to move on. That means that I've also cut off her informal communications, which were almost daily and openly meant to maintain a certain relationship between us.

Basically, my fear is that she'll want to come back but will feel pushed away by me and not come and tell me. We both have strong fear of rejection that can make us act like jerks (rejecting so as not to be rejected) and against our self-interest. Is this really unreasonable?

[Vanilla]

No Mza, that is not an unreasonable question to ask will coolness and detachment drive away a spouse. I ask it of myself daily, when H is picking at an open wound and making it bleed. The coolness and detachment seems to attract but passiveness, aggression and petulant silence surely will drive H away. He knows there has to be space for love and new shoots of an R, to entice him to bridge the gap in his own soul. Otherwise his shame on realisation of his behaviour will drive him away.

I have my boundaries which are very basic
1. I will be treated with respect and if not my boundary is enforced
2. I will sleep alone rather than with a drunk, and I will not condone alcohol to excess in my home
3. H will pay his share of the daily bills
4. I can go GAL, go to GAManon, have my friends in my home without rudeness or criticism
5. The SO in my life will not be R with another
6. I am financial independent because of gambling


In return
1. H can continue to share a house until we sell and then that will be reconsidered
2. I will continue to love respect and care for H even if no R
3. I will attend to my house and work
4. H can do as he pleases without any explanation
5. I will be pleasant, civil and respond to H concerns, texts and emails, get medicine, soup etc when H is 'ill'
6. I will stand for my M, but R is a joint decision and requires two fully active parties, in growth forever
7. I will detach and remain calm living one day at a time

That is how I live my life, imperfectly, sometimes in pain and hurt, sometimes I am irritable and unhappy, but that is my concern not for H. I have worked hard for those feelings, they are mine and I own them. They are personal to me to work on. As is my DB and the things these wonderful lads and lasses here discuss with me.

Mza, I have never developed as a person as much in my life. I am sure this process is the same for all. You too will have your boundaries and list of self that you are prepared to give.


Vanilla

[25yearsmlc]

I may not have the same LBS experiences that some here on the board have had, but before I met my H I was in love with another young man. He broke my heart and I do know how it feels to be rejected. I am not sure if it was my pride or self respect, but I was determined I would not sit around and grieve over him. I refused to cry over what may have been or how badly I had been hurt. I made myself move forward, and I knew nothing about detaching back then.......but that was really what I was doing. I realize this is a very poor comparison to your stitch, b/c we were not M and did not have hildren.

But, my point is that I believe one has to want to detach, be determined, and start doing the necessary action to get there. And, as long as you are afraid of "losing" what you have already lost.......you will never accomplish detaching from her emotionally.


This^^ makes a lot of sense, as you know.

Mozz, I sense that you want to detach IF IT MEANS you are protecting yourself and Not becoming indifferent.

Detachment is not indifference, so much as the self protection mode of being alright, regardless. And regardless, here, means "independent Of", so there's no co-dependence issues either. And btw, have you read "Co-dependent, No More"? I hear it is helpful on this dimension of DBing.

I can't "prove" that my h woke up when I detached. I know I did.

But he certainly did show more interest in me and our future, when I no longer believed we would make it, but that I was going to be more than "just alright", regardless. I was getting excited about the life I was creating for myself and the children.

Here's an exercise for you, that may help clarify or solidify some ideas.

Imagine that you are a widower, and that enough time has passed that most of your grief over the loss of your w, has subsided.

You've gotten past the most painful parts and moved on and now, you find yourself in a really good place. You are now happy, despite having no w in your life.

What would that picture look like? What would you be doing? Living where?

And any new hobbies? What are they? What about travels? Going or living in a new cool place?

Did you go back to school for fun, AND OR to study something for your job? Did you get a new or better job?
What about getting another credential? Learning a new language?

What about the kids? (In this exercise, they are also doing well). Are you guys doing different things together, making new traditions - and or, maintaining the family traditions they and you always loved?

Flesh out this^^^ picture in your mind, for a few minutes.

Really get some details about your new, happy life, that you're living without your w.

What would life be like if you were without your w, but happy anyhow?

Okay....sit on that for a few....and then ask yourself this:

"Which of those ^^ items/activities, could I be doing, now?"

Thanks for sharing. You're right, the kids throw a wrench in the whole thing. I'm afraid that if I manage not to love her anymore and she comes back, I will be the one who threw away our family life and the stability and presence I wanted for my kids.


Since you now know that Love is always at least partly a choice, you can make a different choice.

BTW, I like the phrase "Love is a verb. Thus, it always requires action."



As I wrote before, we're in my country now but she's from a different continent. Our lives will become a maze once we have different partners with their own lives. She wants to go back in a few years (she told me so), but I might not go with her if we're separated. I've no family or friends where she's from. Oh, the mess.


First of all, things and people change their minds, often. Plus your kids cannot live there without your permission/consent til they are adults.

Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow when you have enough on today's plate.

Besides,when you really think about it, these issues^^ are not your problems, they are your wife's.

That is why you have so much trouble with boundaries, b/c in your mind, you fear it will cause you to lose her. Not meeting her for lunch was a step in the right direction. That is an example of determining to take detaching steps.

Thanks. It went even further when she asked why I didn't want to go to lunch and I told her that I needed the space to move on. That means that I've also cut off her informal communications, which were almost daily and openly meant to maintain a certain relationship between us.

Then when discussions about the kids happen, which I assume they will, you can tweak things as you are more confident and detached.

I don't recall you saying you "never" want to talk to her about anything but the kids, but just that for now, this is what you need.

Correct?

Basically, my fear is that she'll want to come back but will feel pushed away by me and not come and tell me.



Okay, this^^ is a fear I know very well. I worried about the same thing.

In my case, another belief was that my h was the type to make an effort and big gesture and then if it wasn't immediately snatched up, he'd retreat and we'd never reconcile.

But here's the catch.

IF your wife does someday want to reconcile, wouldn't you need a tad more than one probing question or gesture from her?

Wouldn't you NEED (never mind the 'tail between the legs remorse' and shame we all think we want...)

But wouldn't you actually Need some evidence from her that she wasn't going to repeat the past behaviors?

(And wouldn't she need the same assurance from you?)

You are afraid you would not be "keeping the road home, paved & smooth."

Of course I hope you're able to have SOME face to face chats long before any talk of reconciliation happens.

Like you, I can't see a sudden awakening on her end, as the result of having no contact with you in person.

Like you, I don't know how she'd see the new/improved you, for her to know whether she wants to reconcile.

However, these issues and dilemmas are all moot right now. Can you guess why they are moot at this point and thus, do not matter?

(Don't bother guessing, b/c I'll just tell you!!)

The reason this^^ and thoughts of "how we can ever reconcile"

and what she'll know or think about you and your new changes,

are all moot at this point, is

b/c You are not detached enough to be around her, without feeling crappy AND OR somehow making the situation worse.

Is that it, in a nutshell? B/C if so, then we need to help you detach FIRST and then figure out other approaches to take to do the DB work that you can do.



We both have strong fear of rejection that can make us act like jerks (rejecting so as not to be rejected) and against our self-interest. Is this really unreasonable?

I don't believe you are being unreasonable.

I think you have the following circumstances and please, please forgive me AND correct me if I am not recalling the details accurately.

(I hate confusing people with others in this situation b/c it's not just embarrassing but it's also off the mark!!)

The summary:

You met & married. After a fairly short time, you neglected her/were critical of her, & you were hard to live with. (Your words, more or less).

She had a brief fling, she regretted it and you owned your part and you reconciled.

Nothing else inside the marriage changed significantly or for long.

For instance, You rarely told her positive things and you admit now,

that you said positives and even basics e.g. "I love you" about once a year, literally...

So her love languages were not spoken often or nearly enough, for her.

You two argued more. She detached big time. You got more controlling as you sensed losing control.

She wants out and she has an affair.

You have the first awakening, which is "oh dang, I blew it again."

She has not had the type of awakening you seek (**OR she believes she has, and that's why she left**)

She seems to believe that losing you is alright b/c her needs went unmet for so long, that marriage to you means the same thing as that. She knows she had an OM before and even that didn't wake you up for long.

And so, regardless of an OM, SHE thinks you cannot change and thus, she made the "Right" choice to leave.

NOW...and in the near future...

She wants a relationship with you as, at least, good co-parents.

She MAY also harbor self doubt about her choice to leave.

She MAY wonder if you are changing for real, and she MAY care if you are.

Mozz, I don't think ANY Woman leaving a h and child(ten) could have zero 2nd thoughts.

Absent abuse, every single mother is going to wonder if she's doing right by her kids, by leaving. (MORE ON THIS, LATER)



I think you fear that she believes or fears the following:

that if she were to come home to you, it would require way too much work on her end, and only or mostly on HER end, for her to be able to do it and maintain self respect. = Too much shame would be heaped on her.

Sort of "well life with Mozz wasn't great anyhow, and now he'll make me pay for ever wanting out, so no thanks."

AND OR

'Mozz will hold the A over my head forever and or throw it in my face every time he gets angry, so 'no thanks'. Why bother trying if he's setting me up to fail?"

WHEREAS YOU WISH she'd come to wonder or believe that

"Wow, Mozz is a changed man. He's a really good father. He is now the way I always wanted him to be. He's now truly the man I thought he was when I married him...

wow I wonder if we could make it work, this time...

what if I'm willing to own my part and prove my commitment to him?

What would that look like? "

That^^ is what you wish for, correct?

Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.

Let us know.

[NewB3]

NOW...and in the near future...

She wants a relationship with you as, at least, good co-parents.

She MAY also harbor self doubt about her choice to leave.

She MAY wonder if you are changing for real, and she MAY care if you are.

Mozz, I don't think ANY Woman leaving a h and child(ten) could have zero 2nd thoughts.

Absent abuse, every single mother is going to wonder if she's doing right by her kids, by leaving. (MORE ON THIS, LATER)



I think you fear that she believes or fears the following:

that if she were to come home to you, it would require way too much work on her end, and only or mostly on HER end, for her to be able to do it and maintain self respect. = Too much shame would be heaped on her.

Sort of "well life with Mozz wasn't great anyhow, and now he'll make me pay for ever wanting out, so no thanks."

AND OR

'Mozz will hold the A over my head forever and or throw it in my face every time he gets angry, so 'no thanks'. Why bother trying if he's setting me up to fail?"

WHEREAS YOU WISH she'd come to wonder or believe that

"Wow, Mozz is a changed man. He's a really good father. He is now the way I always wanted him to be. He's now truly the man I thought he was when I married him...

wow I wonder if we could make it work, this time...

what if I'm willing to own my part and prove my commitment to him?

What would that look like? "

That^^ is what you wish for, correct?

Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.

Let us know.[/color]

25yrsmlc,
Many of us here wish for what you describe above. I know I do. Thanks for all the time you spend here helping us.

[25yearsmlc]

Every WAW with kids, (& probably every WAH too)

will have 2nd thoughts about leaving the m, (absent abuse).


WHEN?

When will they have those doubts or second thoughts? WHEN will they wonder if they really did right by their kids, or themselves?

1) whenever a financial stressor arises, that would not have arisen had she stayed in the m;

2) whenever her child(ren) miss their dad;

3) whenever her child(ren) have had a loving/fun experience with their dad;

4) whenever a love song or good memory pops up. These will increase in frequency as her anger/pain dissipates, if it is not reignited by further conflict;

5) when she sees her stbx, acting calm or confident, and or with a PMA;

6) when her stbx does not fuel her justifications for leaving;

7) when her stbx acts different, incorporating a 180 into his everyday life: i.e. shows real change;

8) whenever family or long standing friends are around and stbx's absence is more pronounced, e.g. holidays, weddings, funerals, etc.

9) every time a child centered event/activity happens, and both parents are there but not really "together".

10) when the stbx has a new R and seems happy, desired by OWs and is seen in a new different/better light.

11) whenever a conflict between she & her stbx, is resolved in a healthy/new way

All of these^^ and more, are times when ALL WAWs will at least wonder about their choice to leave.

At first they'll resolve those doubts by saying "no, stbx is still the same."

If he really does seem different,

at first they'll tell themselves "well, sure but it won't last."

If it seems to be lasting, they'll tell themselves,

"well it would not have lasted/changed, for ME"...but the second thoughts can be very persistent and in time, haunting.

At least the LBSers know they took the hand they were dealt, and played it as well as they could. I'd rather be the LBSer than the WAS for sure. I'm not haunted by my choices.

Assuming the LBSer really did the DB process, the LBSer knows they have improved as people, as parents and as partners. They know they are profoundly different.

Should you have done more, sooner? Yeah, you should have. Bummer...

Is there a single thing you can do, now, about the past?

Nope. You owned your flaws, apologized for them, for real.

If it's "too little too late", you still have the rest of your life for those changes to stick, & help you in your next R. That's not a "Loss"; it's a "Win."

But I really do believe that

--Deep down, a mother of kids who love their dad, who once really did love her h as well, Will look back and wonder what might have been...

I know she will....

Be ready for when she does that, b/c 10 to 1, if you keep at this, she will.

Make sense? Got this?

[25yearsmlc]

I feel like my W is turning into that of HPoirot, except for the tone. After my email about reducing communications, she managed to contact me three times yesterday. In the morning, she emailed me about getting some children CDs from me. In the afternoon, she called about a problem at school (was far from phone, didn't pick up) and then sent me texts about it.

I quickly responded to the text, but took 12 hours to respond to the email about the CDs. There was no rush anyway, but I'll try to be quicker in the future.

By the way, anyone has read "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion? It's a personal essay about the grief surrounding the sudden death of her husband. Weirdly, my W just read it and found it "amazing".

Yes i've read it. It's very well written, of course. (Joan Didion is an excellent author).

MAYBE this^^ is a clue from your wife about how SHE feels as her m to you may be ending. OR maybe she just shared a "moment" with you. No matter.

I'd read it if I were you--then I'd make a comment to your w about it but Don't see this as pursuit (which always includes expectations).

Meaning, reading a book your spouse says was "amazing", to ME, is Like seeing a movie that she said was "great".

It's not pursuit so much as an acknowledgment that she knows a little about your taste AND OR she's trying to share something with you that felt safe AND OR it shows that you listened to and heard her..

I'm confident she'd notice if you brought it up sometime, like "W, I saw that 'amazing' book you read, by Joan Didion.
THEN insert an authentic observation about the book---& maybe say

something like "So anyway, W, you were right, it was a really good read. Thanks for mentioning it."

Expect nothing to be said by her then, and maybe ever.

Don't wait for a comment or action. Move to the next room or get a drink and go to the next topic, etc....UNLESS she really engages you about it. Then be a "book club member" and discuss it more or ask her about her opinions on it, etc. Do not disagree with her, of course. Find common ground.

There's no way that comment/fact won't register with her. Gives her something to think...and contrast with her new life partner.

Joan Didion has truly mastered a way of explaining her grief. It's powerful and very telling that your w mentioned it.


PS

This thought helped me keep my focus. My DB coach told it to me.

"You want to contrast the life your WAS is creating, wherever, with the life you are creating."

The life my h had up on the tundra, was on what HE called the "Last Frontier", "Gold Rush", and was "Brisk in winters" (FYI, my h never called Alaska "cold as he11") ,

contrasted with

the WARM (literally AND figuratively)

loving sunny (upbeat and PMA) life you have there."

See what that might look like for you.

[gogofo]

Powerful stuff and great insight 25, just what I needed right now. I often hope my W will think and feel these things. I just need to back off so they come to her on her own.

[Mozza]

That^^ is what you wish for, correct?

Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.

Let us know.

Exactly. Every word. I couldn't have written it better. I'm in awe. Thank you so much for following and understanding my situation so well.

[Mozza]

By the way, anyone has read "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion? It's a personal essay about the grief surrounding the sudden death of her husband. Weirdly, my W just read it and found it "amazing".

Yes i've read it. It's very well written, of course. (Joan Didion is an excellent author).

MAYBE this^^ is a clue from your wife about how SHE feels as her m to you may be ending. OR maybe she just shared a "moment" with you. No matter.

I'd read it if I were you--then I'd make a comment to your w about it but Don't see this as pursuit (which always includes expectations).

Yes, I'm reading it. The writing is masterful and the story is gripping. I didn't know Joan Didion.

I should clarify that my W posted about the book on a social media; she did not mention the book directly to me. She knows I follow her though, so with some mind reading, she might have thought it would reach me. I try not to read too much into and want to finish the book before forming an opinion, because I suspect there are many ways to interpret the reference. It could be that she's also experiencing grief. Or that we get over pain, eventually. Oh well, just enjoying the book.

Also, I've just cut off all means of informal communications a few days ago, when I explained why I declined her lunch invitation, so I don't really see how I could tell her that I've read the book until we resume these communications, much later. Still, it might touch her at the right moment that I listen to her.