Life 2.0 Pt 4

[Train]

Rzr,

My apologies for jumping in after taking a break from your thread and acting like I have something to say; forgive me if I'm off-base on anything. But I've read the past couple pages, and a couple things came to mind:

1. When it comes to EN, unfortunately the man is often saddled with the "starting point." This is explained in HNHN quite well. Most women need intimate conversation and affection. Most men need sex and admiration. In a lot of cases - including in mine with H - he would want admiration and sex. But I wasn't feeling "attracted" enough to him to pull that off because he wasn't meeting MY needs; he had stopped taking an interest in what I did or how I was feeling. He had stopped buying me flowers. He rolled his eyes when I would talk about my day (granted, I was whining a lot). You know the drill. And because he wasn't meeting my needs, I didn't want to have sex with him. And I certainly didn't admire him. I could (and did) force myself, once in a while, to have sex with him, but it wasn't mutually satisfactory. So then he wasn't completely satisfied. (In other words, I wasn't meeting his needs, either, to inspire him to actually give a crap that he wasn't meeting mine.) Vicious cycle, which sandi detailed beautifully in one of her posts about the LBS taking responsibility for creating a sh!tty marital environment that makes an A not only a possibility but a PROBABILITY.

The thing about women is this: We're complicated. I'd argue we are far more complicated than men, actually. But if you put forth the effort to communicate intimately and to show affection - even just to listen without seeming annoyed or without trying to fix everything or at least without being snarky or judgmental ... or seemingly BORED - we are FAR more willing to meet your EN, including jumping in the sack and participating - even enthusiastically - in what will meet YOUR needs.

Bottom line: It's tough for us to meet your needs if you're not meeting ours first. So the onus usually falls on the man to move FIRST. That might seem unfair. But it's just the truth from how I, and many others, see it. Does that make sense or apply at all in your situation?

Have you given your W flowers lately? Just as a friendly gesture, if nothing else? A man handing a woman flowers with a smile on his face and then carrying on with his day with no expectations ... ahhhh, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside just thinking about it. A STRANGER could do that as a random act of kindness, and it would put a smile on a woman's face all day, so don't think you have to be all romantic-feeling to do it for your W. Just a thought ...

sandi said it perfectly a couple posts ago: She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!

This takes A LOT of courage and faith and forgiveness on your part. I've been there, Rzr. I'm STILL there. But day by day, I've been able to shed the thoughts of OW. It's been 9 months for me - and that's with my H trying his heart out - so be sure to have patience with yourself.

I think you'll get your answers one day if you want them. I don't think the time is right now.

2. Are you guys going on dates or spending any time together outside of the house? H and I, when he came back, agreed to one set-in-stone night a week - Saturdays - for date night. (I even told my older daughters that if they both made plans that night, they'd have to find the babysitter for the younger two and foot the bill. THAT is how dedicated H and I were to making this a standing priority, and it also resulted in my older two negotiating and compromising on nights-out for themselves - lol.) If we're pinching pennies, we are on the back patio, by a fire with beers. And we schedule "A-free" nights when mentioning the A - or anything about it - is absolutely off-limits. We just kick back and enjoy each others' company. It was awkward at first. But nine months later, they're very natural. Those dates have literally saved our M. They've reminded us why we fell in love. And they KEEP us in love. (But, again, they didn't start out that way when H was first home and I was still consumed with thoughts of the A and OW.)

3. You can't just decide to let go of your hatred for OM. Just keep that hatred from spewing out of your mouth. It also doesn't sound like you and your W are in the place to freely discuss him or her A without one of you losing your cool. Do you feel like you need answers about OM and the A? If so, re-read 1. and 2. above (and all the incredible advice sandi has given you). Before long - and once some deposits have been made in the ol' Love Banks and trust has been earned back little pieces - and large chunks - at a time, I'd bet your W will be open to discuss things with you openly and honestly, and then you can get your answers if you need them.

But you're right to make it one of your goals to drop the references to OM right now. Vanilla said it best: This kind of hate and anger seems to emanate from fear. If you address the fears about OM and reframe it then the hate will dissipate. Either that or as a tactic making OM insignificant to you. OM is insignificant and irrelevant, they are a symptom not a cause.

Also: Every time you mention OM, you're putting him in your W's brain again. Cut that out, mmkay?

[NH115]

I am disappointed you did not make a goal to do something about your anger problem. I mean after all, you talk about it so much and whenever backed into a corner, that is your answer.........you just get so angry, the arguments get so heated, you have so much hatred for OM. etc.

It is good you prayed for OM, if it was for his happiness. Sure it wasn't with the thought your own M would be secure if his M would heal? Anyway..........maybe pray for yourself, that God would take the anger out of your heart.

I don't want you to think I am picking this to death, but as much as it has come up......I think it is a bigger issue than you may realize, or admit to yourself. If you don't get control, you are going to lose your W, and you won't have an A or OM to blame it on. You are doing it all by yourself!

Stop using anger for your excuse to act badly. Do something about now.

I included letting go of my hatred of OM as doing something about my anger, but I see your point. I did pray for his healing; I'll admit I was thinking win-win, but that's fine. I'd love it if everyone involved came out on the other side with their marriages renewed. The way my W talks, she doesn't see OM as a viable option any more either. For the record, I did pray for my W's healing as well.

I don't think I realized how angry I was. I've felt numb a lot of the time to be honest. My mindset has actually been worse in the last couple of weeks than it was back in, say, November. I still feel good about myself and the changes I'm making, and I know I'll be fine if we do D, but for some reason I have been angrier lately. Don't get the impression that I scream at or berate my W; I don't, but I know I let myself slide into anger more than I should. I feel like I get pummeled with the same things every day: "I'm not in love with you." "I'm not sexually attracted to you.", etc. And I just get tired of being told every day how much I screwed up her life. I try to control things and make her see reason, even though I know that's pointless.

[NH115]

Rzr,

My apologies for jumping in after taking a break from your thread and acting like I have something to say; forgive me if I'm off-base on anything. But I've read the past couple pages, and a couple things came to mind:

No worries, Train. I appreciate it any time someone jumps in on my thread...even with a 2x4

1. When it comes to EN, unfortunately the man is often saddled with the "starting point." This is explained in HNHN quite well. Most women need intimate conversation and affection. Most men need sex and admiration. In a lot of cases - including in mine with H - he would want admiration and sex. But I wasn't feeling "attracted" enough to him to pull that off because he wasn't meeting MY needs; he had stopped taking an interest in what I did or how I was feeling. He had stopped buying me flowers. He rolled his eyes when I would talk about my day (granted, I was whining a lot). You know the drill. And because he wasn't meeting my needs, I didn't want to have sex with him. And I certainly didn't admire him. I could (and did) force myself, once in a while, to have sex with him, but it wasn't mutually satisfactory. So then he wasn't completely satisfied. (In other words, I wasn't meeting his needs, either, to inspire him to actually give a crap that he wasn't meeting mine.) Vicious cycle, which sandi detailed beautifully in one of her posts about the LBS taking responsibility for creating a sh!tty marital environment that makes an A not only a possibility but a PROBABILITY.

You've described our marriage that led up to this point very nicely. I was detached too much. I spent too much time absorbed in my own issues and general "busy-ness". I did have times where I made her feel like she was putting me out when she wanted my help with something or even some attention. I had an eye-rolling problem too. I own all that completely. There were specific issues she's working through right now, like my toxic parents, but I can't help but wonder if when the onion layers are peeled back, if I just made her feel like an albatross one too many times.

I see my blindness, self-absorption and immaturity now. I've said all these things to her before. I can't tell if it makes any difference. And that's my greatest fear. That I could move heaven and earth to honestly address the things I did wrong in my marriage, and it won't make a difference.

The thing about women is this: We're complicated. I'd argue we are far more complicated than men, actually. But if you put forth the effort to communicate intimately and to show affection - even just to listen without seeming annoyed or without trying to fix everything or at least without being snarky or judgmental ... or seemingly BORED - we are FAR more willing to meet your EN, including jumping in the sack and participating - even enthusiastically - in what will meet YOUR needs.

Bottom line: It's tough for us to meet your needs if you're not meeting ours first. So the onus usually falls on the man to move FIRST. That might seem unfair. But it's just the truth from how I, and many others, see it. Does that make sense or apply at all in your situation?

sandi said it perfectly a couple posts ago: She wants to know she's made the right choice. So act like the right choice!

This takes A LOT of courage and faith and forgiveness on your part. I've been there, Rzr. I'm STILL there. But day by day, I've been able to shed the thoughts of OW. It's been 9 months for me - and that's with my H trying his heart out - so be sure to have patience with yourself.

I think you'll get your answers one day if you want them. I don't think the time is right now.

2. Are you guys going on dates or spending any time together outside of the house? H and I, when he came back, agreed to one set-in-stone night a week - Saturdays - for date night. (I even told my older daughters that if they both made plans that night, they'd have to find the babysitter for the younger two and foot the bill. THAT is how dedicated H and I were to making this a standing priority, and it also resulted in my older two negotiating and compromising on nights-out for themselves - lol.) If we're pinching pennies, we are on the back patio, by a fire with beers. And we schedule "A-free" nights when mentioning the A - or anything about it - is absolutely off-limits. We just kick back and enjoy each others' company. It was awkward at first. But nine months later, they're very natural. Those dates have literally saved our M. They've reminded us why we fell in love. And they KEEP us in love. (But, again, they didn't start out that way when H was first home and I was still consumed with thoughts of the A and OW.)

3. You can't just decide to let go of your hatred for OM. Just keep that hatred from spewing out of your mouth. It also doesn't sound like you and your W are in the place to freely discuss him or her A without one of you losing your cool. Do you feel like you need answers about OM and the A? If so, re-read 1. and 2. above (and all the incredible advice sandi has given you). Before long - and once some deposits have been made in the ol' Love Banks and trust has been earned back little pieces - and large chunks - at a time, I'd bet your W will be open to discuss things with you openly and honestly, and then you can get your answers if you need them.

But you're right to make it one of your goals to drop the references to OM right now. Vanilla said it best: This kind of hate and anger seems to emanate from fear. If you address the fears about OM and reframe it then the hate will dissipate. Either that or as a tactic making OM insignificant to you. OM is insignificant and irrelevant, they are a symptom not a cause.

Also: Every time you mention OM, you're putting him in your W's brain again. Cut that out, mmkay?

Thanks again, Train. you jumped in at the right time. Sometimes our date nights are just running errands (budget's tight at the moment), but we do make sure that we spend at least one evening a week together and away from the kids. Unfortunately when we do that we often seem to end up parked somewhere with her telling me how miserable she is (and my role in that) and me defending myself. I will say that one date we had recently (dinner and then a photo scavenger hunt) went very well.

My W has been extremely forthcoming about everything that has happened; both her feelings about our marriage and the A. The A was predominately emotional, with a little physical, but did not end in sex. I have several reasons why I believe that is true that I won't go into here.

I don't think that Om is the major factor in her life that he once was. I guess it's time I stop making him a major factor in mine.

[Train]

I guess it's time I stop making him a major factor in mine.

Yes. Again, I think you will be able to address these things - your questions and anger and pain - with her eventually. But first, you have some deposits of your own to make in her Love Bank. I know it doesn't feel fair because SHE is the one who had the A. (EA? PA? Doesn't matter one way or the other. One's just as hurtful as the other; in fact, for a woman, an EA is actually HARDER to break than a PA because we are emotional people.) But those of us who have been cheated on did our own disservice to our Ms; as you know, we have as much to prove as the person who cheated. You're here, and so you KNOW that. And you're working on it. Good on you.

Remember: flowers. And establish "A-free" date nights with W. See if she agrees to one of those - say - every two weeks, okay? That's a good starting point. And use those two nights a month to really re-connect and have some fun. No anger. No spewing. No reminders of the sh!t times. Just fun. It doesn't have to cost money. Get creative. And if YOU plan the date? Even BETTER!

[NH115]

Interesting talk last night. She still talks of feeling lost and lonely; but she talked about the past four months like it was some kind of break with reality; that the issues we had buried for a long time finally came to a head. She talks about us living life the way we want. Bottom line, she talked like she was seeing some things differently than she had.

She did tell me point blank she wasn't angry with me anymore. I talked about how I'm working to let OM go, about how off my game I was as a husband and as a man for so long. In other words, my role in this whole fiasco.

There's more, but she sounded more lucid than she has in weeks. I'll take that as a small hopeful sign.

I feel a little better about saying the word 'piecing' this morning. Gotta make some Love Bank deposits in the meantime (thanks Train)

[sandi2]

It's good to hear this.

[NH115]

Thanks for the 2x4 Sandi. I didn't realize how much damage my hatred of OM and anger towards her was doing. I didn't realize how angry I actually was.

[Vanilla]

Expect V to mention it occasionally!.......

V

[NH115]

Geez. W is calling me at work; she feels alone; she feels abandoned by OM and me. She's not in love with me anymore and hasn't been for years. I'm stuck at work, talking to her on my cell. I just don't know how to handle this.

I'm trying like hell not to spiral. I even told her I needed a time out (as prescribed by our therapist) because I was starting to spiral. I want to be there for her, but I can't sit there and make her feel better about OM.

[Starsky309]

I'm probably not the right guy to ask . .

You can always fall back on the ol' "I hate to see you hurting," or "I agree, this has been really hard on all of us" generalities in a pinch.


Starsky