Life 2.0 Pt 4

[NH115]

Thanks Dawn, good to hear from you as always. Hope you're doing well.

[NH115]

You must enjoy starting over at square one again.

Yeah, apparently I do have this square one fetish. I was doing better earlier in my sitch. I can't figure out why I've deteriorated.

Okay, well I have noticed where several of the fights seem to start with you asking her "what's wrong". My suggestion is don't ask. Seriously, don't do it, b/c when she starts talking about things, it usually triggers something and you lose it. If this pattern continues much longer, you will eventually have one too many and then end it with a blow-out where neither of you will recover. Every time you two fight like this, it is like slicing each other apart. How can you heal? You can't.

So, whenever you see her in a down mood, you can either do something that would generally lift her spirits or you can just show your PMA and don't pry. I hate to admit it, but there are a few women who show their depressed moods/attitudes in order to get the H to ask them what's wrong. It's like her way of getting his undivided attention. But with the two of you, it keeps going down that same old road hitting the same old ruts. I am not saying that is what your W is doing, b/c IDK. Did you ever try my suggestion about telling her you would listen to her talk about anything except the A/OM?

I'm usually very good about not asking her, vis a vis DB principles. we had enjoyed several days of good communication and relatively good company, so I guess I felt better about asking her. It is true that I've had a much harder time recently keeping it together. It's not even so much that she mentions OM, but last night she lit into me about ruining her life and setting her up for her "indiscretion", as she calls it. Like I said, I was able to listen constructively for about 10 minutes until about the 5th "F*** you, you ruined my life" and I just lost it. We are very good at pushing each other's buttons, as most married couples are. When I suggest not talking about OM, she accuses me of trying to shut down communication, and only wanting to talk about things that are comfortable for me...as if I'm having fun talking about all our other issues. Remember, those are all my fault too.

You have to be the stronger one, happier one, and the one who is leading her. You may get very tired of hearing this said, however, if you are not able to do this and you succumb to exploding in fury over what she tells you, then it's like two blind people trying to lead each other. You both will fall into the ditch. She's upset, you ask her about it, she tells you, and what do you do? Exactly! So stop sticking your hand in the fire.

Remember, after she saw OM at work, she had to start all over with the withdrawal process. So really, you both have started over again. Must be terribly discouraging, except that hopefully you learn something from the times before and will stop repeating the same mistakes.

I hope you won't give up. I believe you two can make. Once she can get through the withdrawal/depression, then her heart will be free to feel the love she has always had for you. In the meantime, stop scr@wing up, okay?

P.S. It was good to hear you had a great weekend. Have you planned anything for Valentines? What would be something different?

Thanks, and I know she's still in withdrawal. Even she sees it in her more calm moments. I apparently had a much better time keeping it together early on; don't know why I'm having so much difficulty now. If any posters have any suggestions about how to get my anger in check; I'm all ears. I know we're heading towards a blowout that's unrecoverable. It almost happened last night. This morning she was telling me about how I need to help foster the environment for us to reconnect emotionally; namely, by not exploding, and by not attacking OM. She told me point blank that she feels even farther from me when I do that. I understand and believe what she's telling me, but the thought that kept going through my mind this morning was "She's the one who had the A, and I'm the one having to grovel to try and win her back. WTF?" I know that's the wrong attitude to have; I'm working through it.

To top it off, we're in the middle of a health scare right now. She discovered a relatively large, tender lump on her chest last week. Not her breast, but her upper chest near her collarbone. The tests last week were inconclusive, but the doctor is fairly sure it's benign. That said, she goes for an MRI and biopsy on Friday. I had already taken a vacation day so that I could go with her, but last night she told me that she didn't want me to go because, as she put it, she saw me doing something kind and loving as "clouding her judgment" about our future. She didn't want to be vulnerable to me in any way. Geez. Even when I do positive things she sees them as wrong. Anyway, today she had changed her mind and wanted me to go. Fascinating.

As far as V-day, nothing. She hates V-day anyway, and especially now she feels like it would be "fake". I've got a couple of ideas for date night that I'm waiting to try out as soon as the weather gets a little more cooperative. In the meantime, I'm taking her for lunch on Friday. This weekend is yet another out of town trip for D15's athletics.







[/quote]

[Squiggy]

If any posters have any suggestions about how to get my anger in check; I'm all ears

I haven't read all of your sitch, but I have read quite a bit. What have you done to let go of your anger in terms of personal growth? I ask this, because 1. I'm a guy, 2. I believe in my Scottish/Irish heritage :), and 3. that's what I learned from my father thanks to an angry home. Can you truly identify the source of the anger? There are many times when it comes from a source that we do not easily see in the heat of the moment.

I provide therapy for a lot of men that have anger issues. A lot of the times it plays out in their Rs with GFs or Ws. I can tell you with full confidence that the clear majority of them come to the understanding that the anger stems from something inside of themselves and not their SOs.

For example, I worked with this vet who served two tours in Iraq. He was a combat medic and now an OR nurse. He would get so frustrated and angry with his W and D2, and they entered into couples therapy. I worked with him on the side. As we progressed through therapy and began to identify the start of his anger issues, we came to the understanding that it was a remnant from responsibilities in the military. When something happened, whether it was a firefight or being brought someone teetering on the brink of death, he had to react immediately, take control, and work towards results. Consequently, he became impatient and intolerant to indecisiveness and not following directions. Take a guess what most of the problems with him and his W were...

As you can see from that, he thought it was simply because his wife didn't see the importance of what he was saying. Instead, he wouldn't give her the opportunity to do so. Really think about what it is.

[NH115]

I appreciate your insight, Squiggy. I descend from two different Scottish clans, myself. I can put on a fair Scottish brogue, especially after a drink or two, and redheaded women are my kryptonite

My father can also be very quick-tempered, controlling, and on occasion downright bullying, though he was never violent. I know I picked up more than a few relationship pointers from him.

I definitely grew up with a less-than-stellar model of patience, so that's part of it. There may be others that I'm not thinking of, but off the top of my head I tend to get angriest when I feel out of control, my competence or character is questioned, or when I feel ignored or discarded, as in when my Ds ignore my directions. My sitch has included all three of those triggers in spades; I have no direct control over the outcome. My W has attacked my worth as a husband, a father, and my very manhood. She's also been completely resistant to seeing thing my way. I KNOW intellectually that I don't need to believe most of what she says, that I have no control, and that I'll only reach her through emotion, not logic. It still triggers me. I was actually better about it earlier in my sitch. I'm sure that fatigue and frustration are part of this as well.

I read a book about "nice guys" early in my sitch that described me to a "T". One of the things that stood out was that "nice guys" tended to be nice on the surface, but would have explosive and sometimes unexplained bursts of anger. Looking back I was because I felt like I had handed all control over my life to W in an effort to make her happy. I know my resentment spilled out onto her. Her legitimate complaints about my past behavior have often centered on my consistent moodiness and irritability. I've made a lot of progress in the last couple of years, really, in that area, but by the time I got a clue, her walls were already up.

What I have done to let go of my anger is mostly self-talk and exercise. I have also been more into prayer lately. I grew up in a religious home, but I fell away from the church for about 20 years after college. Ironically enough, I visited a church for the first time in several years the weekend before BD.

[Squiggy]

Absolutely understandable. I went through the whole being blamed for everything during BD as well. It is difficult when all of those things are brought to light. One thing I am personally glad to say is that it put it all in the forefront for me and allowed me to really begin to see what it was underneath it all. I think you're insight into the components of your anger are amazing. The self-talk and exercise are absolutely great starts to managing it better. Let me ask you this then, what immediate, quick things have you developed to let you manage it in the moment?

[NH115]

And that's where I fall down. It's one thing to work on my anger when im not actually triggered, it's another thing in the heat of battle. I've been able to take deep breaths on occasion and get things under control, but not always.

Our therapist did suggest using a time out signal when either one of us felt ourselves starting to spiral. It's worked well. It allows either one of us to use that signal, stop the spiral and withdrawal physically for a set period of time without the other one feeling abandoned.

[sandi2]

Just curious if you have ever been to any anger management classes? And if not, why?
Does the subject come up in MC sessions (about your anger)?

The C has said not to have R talks outside of the MC sessions. You don't seem to be having the sessions often enough for your W to feel satisfied without talking more about it. I don't really know the solution other than waiting until she's not in a mood and then explain to her that the two of you are at a cross road here. For her, it is about connecting through verbal communication. For you, it is about respect and honor. Neither of you are getting what you need.

You can no longer listen to her talk about the A, b/c it reminds you of how she dishonored her wedding vows. You go crazy when she carries on over the OM, b/c it disrespects you. Somehow she has got to meet you half way. She is not the only one who is suffering. Why is the MC not getting her attention about this? Your W is not working with you or the MC by having a R talk almost every day.

My H would never argue, so we didn't fight. If I started to raise my voice or begin getting angry, he would leave. It drove me nuts! I wanted to let him have it with my anger and frustration, but he would wait until he knew I had time to cool down before he came back. I think it was better than doing like you and your W screaming and cursing at each other.

Maybe you need to try walking away and staying gone till the anger is gone. Even if it's overnight or a week.

She's the one who had the A, and I'm the one having to grovel to try and win her back. WTF?" I know that's the wrong attitude to have; I'm working through it.

No, you do NOT have to grovel! Who told you that? Where did you read that? It your own belief that is saying it, b/c you FEEL like you are groveling in an attempt to win her back.......while she yells "FU" to your face.

All I know for sure is you are NOT working through it, like you say. Both of you are in crisis and this is not working for either of you. Do something different.

[Squiggy]

Finally got home from second job, so I wanted to check in on you. You said it's one thing while you are not triggered, it is easy. Absolutely. Sandi brought up a good point with the anger management classes. One of the things they teach you is to be aware of warning signs within yourself. You already know triggers (hot topics in this case). When you start to get angry, what are some of the things that go on with you? Think in terms of physical sensations (jaw clenching, muscle tension, bugs crawling, heart pounds, etc.), thoughts ("I can't believe she's doing this again", "Here is more talk about him", etc.), and feelings.

Keep in mind, anger is more like a behavior than an emotion. I use the iceberg analogy a lot. What we see is the tip of the iceberg, which is only about 1/3 of the whole thing. We see that behavior. However, there are more true feelings underneath it: insecurity, frustration, impatience, despair, fury, depression..You name it.

I also want to echo what Sandi said about the groveling. Really ask yourself what you mean by that. DB/DR says that we are the first to make the changes. We lead the way. Sometimes you have to agree with them from THEIR perspective, not your's. The biggest tool I use in therapy is called reframing. It allows me to agree with almost anything, because I can see where they are coming from. Think about where she is at in this process.

[Train]

Rzr,

My hat's off to you, bro. I just ... man, I just can't even.

I can empathize. That's about all I can say right now.

I did want to echo sandi's idea, though, that you consider bringing up setting boundaries around the discussions ... and one boundary is that you won't listen to all that OM-diarrhea in your ear.

That's just ... no.
Whew.

Have you tried that with W?

[NH115]

Sandi, I haven't thought about anger management classes, but I have thought about IC. I've brought my anger up in MC, that was when our C suggested the idea of the time out.

For my W, any time I suggest boundaries on what we can discuss, that's me trying to control too much. She doesn't see how we can talk about our problems with mentioning OM. I don't want to prohibit ever mentioning OM, but I don't need the story of how he made her feel for the 1000th time. She doesn't really say it in a gushing way, but she does it knowing what it does to me. Of course, my insistence on boundaries is a sign of weakness on my part; that I can't handle dealing with uncomfortable subjects. Because all our other issues are fun to talk about I can't get a bead on what she wants. She insists that the A was a result of our problems and not a cause (I agree), but she still makes it too much a feature of our R discussions.

We're meeting in MC once a week. No, that's not enough for W. She wants to talk way too much. Her basic attitude is that if she's in a bad frame of mind, then I need to drop everything and discuss it with her. Anything less means I don't really care and she feels farther away from me. I made the mistake of asking her how she was doing a couple of nights ago; I won't do that again. Yesterday was actually a good day, but I could tell she was tense when she left this morning for work. I didn't ask, I just carried on like I was having a good morning.

I didn't read the "groveling" thing anywhere. That was just the feeling I had the other morning after our big blowup when she was telling me that I needed to figure out how to connect with her emotionally, rather than logically. She has an excellent point, but at the time it felt like she was telling me what I needed to do. Her words were respectful, but I heard it in her tone. I'd like to know just what the hell is she trying to do to reconnect with me?