Finally got home from second job, so I wanted to check in on you. You said it's one thing while you are not triggered, it is easy. Absolutely. Sandi brought up a good point with the anger management classes. One of the things they teach you is to be aware of warning signs within yourself. You already know triggers (hot topics in this case). When you start to get angry, what are some of the things that go on with you? Think in terms of physical sensations (jaw clenching, muscle tension, bugs crawling, heart pounds, etc.), thoughts ("I can't believe she's doing this again", "Here is more talk about him", etc.), and feelings.
That's basically what our C suggested when we were discussing a time out. We needed to spot our triggers and call time out before they got out of control. I hadn't thought about anger management classes before, but I am considering IC.
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Keep in mind, anger is more like a behavior than an emotion. I use the iceberg analogy a lot. What we see is the tip of the iceberg, which is only about 1/3 of the whole thing. We see that behavior. However, there are more true feelings underneath it: insecurity, frustration, impatience, despair, fury, depression..You name it.
That's an interesting way to describe anger. I always thought of it as an emotion, but you're right. There's definitely all those other emotions that you named under it for me.
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I also want to echo what Sandi said about the groveling. Really ask yourself what you mean by that. DB/DR says that we are the first to make the changes. We lead the way. Sometimes you have to agree with them from THEIR perspective, not your's. The biggest tool I use in therapy is called reframing. It allows me to agree with almost anything, because I can see where they are coming from. Think about where she is at in this process.
"Groveling" was the feeling I had at the time, when she was talking to me the morning after our big blowup. My basic thought at the time was, "Why am I doing all the heavy lifting? This has been a journey of profound change for me. What the hell is she doing to change?" I do like the way you put it; that we're "leading the way". When I can think of it that way, I feel more in charge; I know that a feeling of helplessness is one of my anger triggers. I don't feel in control of my fate, so I lash out. I can intellectually see where she's coming from; as I've said before, her issues with me are not all out of left field. I'm just constantly being told that there's no way for me to remedy the issues that drove us apart. The way she talks, it's not enough that I recognize, deal with and learn from the mistakes in the past; I should have prevented the issues from happening in the first place. Yeah, that's going to happen. I know that this is classic WAS rhetoric. You'd think that I'd be used to it by now.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I really didn't think you had, but I wanted to point out that when the LBS "feels" they are groveling, they have gotten off track somewhere, somehow.
I think you will have to lay that boundary about no talking of OM unless in the MC session. (Suggest she talk to IC if she needs to talk about him, but stop talking avout him to H.) And if she cannot have a discussion about the R problems "before" the A started without repeating this old pattern of bringing OM into it, then you will leave. I don't mean permanently, but get away from her. You should know your limits by now. Don't think you hear another talk about great OM made her feel......and you not lose it. You've tried too many times.
Without getting angry or using bad language, tell her firmly (with a lowered voice) that you cannot handle any more discussions about her AP. You do not intend to have a repeated fight b/c it is not solving anything, much less "connecting" the two of you. If she does not honor the boundary and talks about him, you leave the house. Get away from the scene that is emotionally charged and get a hold on yourself.
Look, she's going to think whatever she wants to think. But hopefully she will learn you will no longer stay around to listen to this same talk that ends in a fight.
Do you think you can enforce that one boundary?
I think I can see what she is trying to do, but she is handling it the wrong way. That is why I said the C needs to get her attention about this, before things end in a D. If the C is not offering solutions in what to do at home, what good is the MC doing?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Rzr, your post made me smile. That is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of starting to manage your anger in the moment. Now, take what your IC suggested and start using it on your own prior to getting to the point of needing a time out from the conversation. If you start to feel any of those sensations happening, recognize them, and do something different, such as taking some deep breaths, pointing out that you are getting X emotion, or take the initiative to say you need a set amount of time to cool off. YOU take the lead, and normally the other person will respond in kind.
Originally Posted By: Rzrback
That's an interesting way to describe anger. I always thought of it as an emotion, but you're right. There's definitely all those other emotions that you named under it for me.
Good that you see this. It might help for you to write down what some of the most common ones are, whether it is here or on paper, and begin to address where they come from. That way you are able to start challenging/doing something about them.
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What the hell is she doing to change?" I do like the way you put it; that we're "leading the way". When I can think of it that way, I feel more in charge; I know that a feeling of helplessness is one of my anger triggers. I don't feel in control of my fate, so I lash out.
Ok, so for this one, that is an absolutely valid question to ask. You have been doing most of the heavy lifting, and look at where it has brought YOU. YOU are in control of YOUR fate, not her's, not the marriage's. Remember, DBing is for your first, then M later. By learning to better manage your anger, you will become a better man. By becoming a better man, someone, whether it is your W or someone else, will benefit from it. You will feel more at peace with yourself, and that is what attracts people to you.
As for her change, think about this. Do you really want to continue in an R when the two of you argue in this way? Now, I'm not saying to quit by any means, and let me validate that. Regarding my current sitch, I would not take my W back at the moment. I don't see the work she has done towards reconciling. If I jumped headfirst at the first opportunity, we would not have solved anything that led us to where we are currently, and it would be just another band-aid. However, I do want her back. Your W has work to do as well, and by your actions of learning to control you anger in some of the most difficult moments will show her that things can be different. She will notice.
M: 8.5 T:10 Me:37 W:34 S:6
Retrouvaille and W moves back- 7/31/15 Piecing - 7/4/15 to present
Reading the last two pages of your thread last night really hit me between the eyes. It's weird. Like, I can almost empathize with your W; I used to talk things to death, too. And I wanted to get everything out. And I wanted to blame H. I wanted to punish him. I wanted him to see (and, I'm ashamed now to admit, "fix") my hurt.
But HE was the one who cheated on ME. Hellllooo?
So, I'm in YOUR brain, too! Like, when you mentioned "groveling," I knew EXACTLY what you meant!
I didn't have to endure my H going through a "withdrawal period," and - especially after reading the challenges you're facing - thank God I didn't. What you're going through right now must be taking astronomical amounts of strength and restraint ... and gallons of Wonka's STFU juice. I don't know how *anyone* who has been cheated on could maintain their cool while their formerly-cheating spouse throws FU-bombs in their face and talks about how great OM/OW made her/him feel, ESPECIALLY when you're both supposed to be working on repairing things.
I know nothing I said is "helping" you; sandi's got that in the bag. And I agree with her entire post above.
From what I'm reading, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't talk to W, she says you don't care. If you do talk to W, she can't respect a boundary of no-OM talks. If you do listen to her talk about OM, it sets off your anger (and rightfully so). If you don't talk about OM, you're accused of "not discussing the issues." Dude. That's an impossible position for you to be in. sandi is right: SOMETHING has got to be done.
My H and I agreed that we would try to stick to talking about what happened that led to the affair. He doesn't talk about OW specifically; only about how good she made him feel about himself. And I've been able, when H talks and I ask questions, to keep our conversation geared toward that. (I have had plenty of moments of blowing my lid, too, btw.) But again, his A was strictly physical, so I'm kinda comparing apples to oranges when I look at your sitch and mine.
It seems to me that your first course of action is to figure out, in your own mind, what you can tolerate and what you can't ... and what your reconciliation-efforts can tolerate and what they can't. Talk to MC about it and include EXACTLY what your boundaries will be. Tell W, in front of the MC, that you will listen to her but that if she starts to talk about OM and how great he made her feel, you WILL walk away for a time-out and that it DOES NOT mean you don't care for her or the future of your relationship ... and it DOES NOT mean you're abandoning her. In fact, it's quite the contrary. That "time-out" - recommended by your MC - is meant to HELP the future of your relationship by keeping you from doing or saying something you will regret. I'd get that all out on the table in front of your W and MC.
Forgive me if this comes across as enabling your anger (trying to avoid that is why I couldn't get much more out of my fingertips in last night's post than I did), but: There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would stand there and let my formerly-wayward, cheating spouse rub my nose in his/her AP's sh!t. No way. No how. That needs to stop. Your W is in control of that. But YOU are in control of whether you'll sit there and listen to it. Fear be d@mned, and what your W says about you "not caring" be d@mned. Walk away.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Forgive me if this comes across as enabling your anger (trying to avoid that is why I couldn't get much more out of my fingertips in last night's post than I did), but: There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would stand there and let my formerly-wayward, cheating spouse rub my nose in his/her AP's sh!t. No way. No how. That needs to stop. Your W is in control of that. But YOU are in control of whether you'll sit there and listen to it. Fear be d@mned, and what your W says about you "not caring" be d@mned. Walk away.
Reading the last two pages of your thread last night really hit me between the eyes. It's weird. Like, I can almost empathize with your W; I used to talk things to death, too. And I wanted to get everything out. And I wanted to blame H. I wanted to punish him. I wanted him to see (and, I'm ashamed now to admit, "fix") my hurt.
But HE was the one who cheated on ME. Hellllooo?
So, I'm in YOUR brain, too! Like, when you mentioned "groveling," I knew EXACTLY what you meant!
I didn't have to endure my H going through a "withdrawal period," and - especially after reading the challenges you're facing - thank God I didn't. What you're going through right now must be taking astronomical amounts of strength and restraint ... and gallons of Wonka's STFU juice. I don't know how *anyone* who has been cheated on could maintain their cool while their formerly-cheating spouse throws FU-bombs in their face and talks about how great OM/OW made her/him feel, ESPECIALLY when you're both supposed to be working on repairing things.
I know nothing I said is "helping" you; sandi's got that in the bag. And I agree with her entire post above.
From what I'm reading, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you don't talk to W, she says you don't care. If you do talk to W, she can't respect a boundary of no-OM talks. If you do listen to her talk about OM, it sets off your anger (and rightfully so). If you don't talk about OM, you're accused of "not discussing the issues." Dude. That's an impossible position for you to be in. sandi is right: SOMETHING has got to be done.
"Damned if you do and damned if you don't" summarizes it perfectly. She expects me to drop everything and get into an R discussion whenever she's in a bad frame of mind. If I don't (even if it's an outside reason, like I have to actually do work while I'm on the clock),then I don't care and I'm abandoning her. If I do, then I get treated to no boundaries and spew. I should add that this extends to her friends as well. She's angry because none of her friends are "there" for her. I suspect that it's because none of them will cheerlead her fantasy about OM. She wants them to be there for her, but she doesn't want them to express negative opinions about her behavior.
Overarching this is her mindset (she will deny this) that I should just bend over and take whatever I get from her because of my mistakes and failures in the past. As I've said before, she will pay lip service to her contributions to the state of our marriage, but when we get into the nitty-gritty of an R discussion, everything is basically my fault.
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It seems to me that your first course of action is to figure out, in your own mind, what you can tolerate and what you can't ... and what your reconciliation-efforts can tolerate and what they can't. Talk to MC about it and include EXACTLY what your boundaries will be. Tell W, in front of the MC, that you will listen to her but that if she starts to talk about OM and how great he made her feel, you WILL walk away for a time-out and that it DOES NOT mean you don't care for her or the future of your relationship ... and it DOES NOT mean you're abandoning her. In fact, it's quite the contrary. That "time-out" - recommended by your MC - is meant to HELP the future of your relationship by keeping you from doing or saying something you will regret. I'd get that all out on the table in front of your W and MC.
Forgive me if this comes across as enabling your anger (trying to avoid that is why I couldn't get much more out of my fingertips in last night's post than I did), but: There is NO WAY IN HELL that I would stand there and let my formerly-wayward, cheating spouse rub my nose in his/her AP's sh!t. No way. No how. That needs to stop. Your W is in control of that. But YOU are in control of whether you'll sit there and listen to it. Fear be d@mned, and what your W says about you "not caring" be d@mned. Walk away.
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still terrified of losing her. It's wrong. It's pathetic. I know it shows up in my anger and defensiveness when I deal with her. She's all I've known my entire adult life and I'm dreading the idea of life without her. I forget that there are times in our marriage where I was almost the WAS.
There. I said it.
I hadn't always felt that way. I've even had days where I almost pulled the trigger myself. I had been able to drop the rope for a while, but then she does or says something that reminds me why I married her. I know I'm not unusual in feeling this way. It even depends on the day. After an insanely hot Latina co-worker flirted with me in the break room the other day, I went home ready for anything W could dish out. The next day, I was back to needy. I know intellectually that I would be fine either way, but I don't want to test that theory. Today I feel on top of the world. Two days ago I didn't. How do I get back on that horse, consistently? I can feel my man card shriveling up in my wallet just typing this. This is why I've had such a hard time enforcing boundaries.
The MC has told her directly that I am not who she should be going to about OM. Not that she listens. She gets in one of her panic states and all she can see is her own pain. No logic, no conscience, no respect for anyone else's feelings, especially mine (seeing as how I caused all our problems). I will say that the time-out does help because I'm able to walk away in a controlled manner, without sending the message that I'm giving up.
Last edited by Rzrback; 02/05/1508:26 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I'm still terrified of losing her. I'm glad you got that off your chest. It didn't surprise me at all to read it. I could smell your fear from however-many miles away last night in your posts. And if I can sniff it out, you better believe W can, too.
It doesn't make you less of a man to be afraid of losing your W.
I think there's a balance in there, though, Rzr: Okay, keep your testosterone and anger in check; cool it on hammering away at OM in front of W. (He's not the one you married, after all, and he's not the one who broke a vow made with you.) But I'd certainly strongly encourage you to make sure that your fear of losing your W doesn't lead you to have to - as one vet says - go pull your balls out of her purse.
All I'm about to write may be flying in the face of everything else you've been told about the best way to handle things in your case; I am not as deep in your sitch as others. But something has been gnawing at me about your W since last night, and your latest response just added to it.
Yesterday, this (from you) really stuck out to me:
She let loose on both me and OM. I listened calmly for about 10 minutes and then it just exploded in me ... We're talking now and her state of mind is far better today. There's *something* about your W that feels/seems really familiar to me. I don't know if it's that I, myself, can identify with her or if it's that she reminds me of someone I know. Maybe it's a little of both. Okay, okay, if I'm being *really* honest: Her dramatics actually remind me A LOT of my earlier self ... and (I'm so glad I'm anonymous right now) ... my SISTER!
My sister just turned 40. She is as sharp as a tack and as smart as they come. She's beautiful, competitive, driven and highly successful. She makes six figures. She's working on her Ph.D. But she has been D twice. And she's working on H #3. She talks a big game about how physically AND emotionally independent she is ... and she has A LOT of people convinced.
I am not one of them.
She's ACTUALLY very needy. Clingy. Very reliant on external approval. But you would NEVER know it. In her Ms, she wore the pants, and her H's voices quivered when they stood up to her (*IF* they stood up to her). She's freakin' MOUTHY as all get out. Her eyes will burn holes through you when she's angry. She acts like - and is the first to tell you that - she knows what she wants, when she wants it and HOW she wants it. And that's how she runs the show with men who love her. If SHE wants to talk about x, you're gonna sit down and LISTEN to her talk about x! And don't DARE interrupt her with your nonsense bullsh!t.
But, Rzr, when a man falls for her and jumps in line like a good, little duck - JUST LIKE THAT - she's DONE with him.
I'm the only person who calls a spade a spade to my sister, and I'm the only person in the world that she'll be vulnerable in front of. I told her during one of her "I-told-HIM" tirades not too long ago: "What you NEED is a man - a MAN - who stands up to you and your crap and your big mouth. A man who will every once in a while tell you, lovingly and respectfully, to sit down and shut the he!l up!"
Her eyes got as big around as saucers. And then she smiled real big and said, "Yes. You're exactly right."
What does this have to do with you, Rzr?
Maybe nothing.
But, like I said, there's just something familiar about your W to me. Could it be that she is the kind of woman my sister is? When I read about your W's reactions and responses ... and when I read that you lost your cool and lashed out and then the next morning your W's "state of mind" was strangely "much better," I dunno. I just wonder if that's a clue that your W is attracted to a, you know, MAN. A fearless, convicted MAN.
Now I'm not telling you to go and tell your W to sit down and shut up. That's something I can tell my sister she needs, but that's because she's my sister. Lol. The point is, though, I, too, am a confident, capable, mouthy (at times - lol) woman. And one of my biggest complaints to my H, once he came back home, is that he always let me run the show and call all the shots. He thought - because that's always who I was - that that's what I wanted. It wasn't. It isn't. I'm a woman. And yeah, a strong one. But I'm a woman. And I want a MAN as a husband. One that's not afraid to respectfully, but firmly, put me in my place every once in a while if I'm in the "wrong place."
It might p!ss me off at first, you know? But that kind of decisiveness - that kind of leadership - is freaking HOT in a man. And I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm the only girl out here who feels that way.
Maybe I've rambled about something that doesn't at all apply to your W or your situation. But I just feel like your W may be one of "those" women. And IF she is, then pu$sy-footing around her because you fear losing her is going to be your very worst enemy. It's going to backfire on you.
I don't feel qualified enough to tell you what to do; I'm not familiar enough with your sitch. But I know you've stated you're scared of losing your W. And I know she disrespects you enough to talk about OM to your face. And perhaps there's a piece of the puzzle I didn't catch - or something that maybe you didn't write about to connect a couple dots - but I drew an interesting parallel between you losing your cool and your W's better "state of mind" the very next morning. And I thought I'd throw allllll this out there as food for thought for you.
I really hesitate to say this, because I don't want someone bashing me for saying that we shouldn't listen to what our spouse *says* they want. But I really wonder if your W is like my sister: she *says* she wants you to be one way but her *actions* show she NEEDS you to be something else.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
