For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2

[sandi2]

That's it, Miman.

[alpha99]

Sandi,

I have read a lot of your posts and your insight is great. I have a thread in the infedilty section but I was wondering if you had an opinion on how to approach face to face contact with WAW when SHE has the kids and seems to be in control. A lot of the situations I read about have the WAW have a PA, go off and do crazy things, and have LBH picking up the pieces with bills/house/kids.

I have the reverse in that somehow W has engineered it that although she had affair, separated from me, wants a divorce, she has moved out and has our kids. I'm meeting her later for first time in a week with kids. Part of the reason we've git to this specific point is because of my crying/begging/pleading/desperation in terms of threats to expose A and stupidly to commit suicide (not seriously meant but still said).

I wonder how many others have done things so wrong in the beginning of a S that they have pushed the balance of power regarding kids, decision making etc to the WAW who it seems should be the one outcast from the family setting for her actions, not relocating it and having the LBH be outcast.

Although this is specific to me it may help others in a similar situation.

[alpha99]

Maybe I should have also added whether in this case of WAW having the children whether the LBH should do what he can to be there and help with kids (if wanted/allowed) or take the tougher road in the short term of stepping back altogether and seeing whether WAW struggles with the kids alone and due to LBH backing off WAW may start to seek him out. I hope I'm making sense. Myself, I would like to be there at every moment for my kids and would never abandon them, but I do feel that if I'm helping out, running around doing school drop offs etc if I'm just facilitating an easier life for WAW and not allowing space for her to 'need' me. Does what I'm saying make sense? It's tricky balancing parenting responsibilities with pulling back, particularly when pulling back leads WAW to use guilt on LBH of not helping with children to manipulate LBH to help as she chooses. How would you suggest approaching that situation? Finally, in my own case, I'm trying to implement LRT. Any suggestions on that in general and how children might impact the viability of it?

[Detrmnd]

Hi Sandi, I have a thread here in newcomers that I'd like you to take a look at the last question. My WW currently wants to come to a financial arrangement. Now I look at what you suggest about stopping paying for her cell phone etc.. I am very worried that I am being too nice and paying for her to maintain the same lifestyle. However how do I pay for that lifestyle for my children and yet restrict hers? I am concerned if I under pay her, she will just remove benefits from the children to maintain her quality of life... I know she is already doing this by spending money on petrol to visit the OM which is costing her about £200 a month.

Finally and I realise this sounds crazy, and tbh mean to the other party involved.. But how about getting another girlfriend? I only ask as it seems to me that would shock WW and get the jealously kicking in.. I have no interest in OW at the moment. I would cut off a limb to be re-united with my WW but hence I would do anything to increase the likelihood of that reunion becoming sooner!

[Detrmnd]

Hi Alpha,

I think this is a very interesting point. I also currently do a lot of looking after the children, whenever I do the WW is with the OM. I love and miss seeing my kids everyday, but perhaps if I withdrew totally she would realise that she can only continue the A with my help... The danger is she then decides to start acting desperately. Bringing him round the house etc... Arrrgggghhhh! why do I feel like every decision I have to be thinking 12 steps ahead!

I am very interested for Sandi2's input on this as well.

[sandi2]

To continue further along on the subject of letting the WW back into the MR too easily (or without her going through the process of working to rid herself of the waywardness, as discussed in my last post). I think we see many H's who are so focused on just getting his W back, that he wants to make it as easy as possible for her return. In doing so, he takes her back without her changing anything about herself. He has worked on himself, but she has changed nothing. Maybe she said she ended the A, but she still has resentment, disrespect, and rebellion in her heart.

One of the popular sayings on the board is to "keep the road home paved smooth". I don't argue with it, however, I do get concerned at how many men jump on that one cliche' and use it as their defense to not taking bolder moves. Some newcomer men are "nice guys" and they are already filled with fear. If he is given advice that might challenge him, he begins looking for something that "permits" a more passive position. Therefore, he grabs this "keeping the road paved smooth" as his game plan. He applies it in every response to his wife's waywardness, disrespect, recklessness, and selfishness. In other words, he uses this as his slogan and as his excuse in not applying any sort of tougher love approach, b/c in reality, the whole tough love idea scares them. They want to interpret it as saying, "It is okay to be the doormat, and nice her back into the MR".

Out of respect to 25yrsmlc and any other board members who give the advice of keeping the road paved smooth, I feel the problem may be in how some of the readers want to interpret it, and not necessarily the intended message given. I have my interpretation of "keeping the road home paved smooth", and I do not see it as a ticket for weak behavior from the LBS. Just as one example, would be when the LBS chooses to get involved in another relationship. That could cause enough barriers to prevent the wayward spouse returning to the M. That possibility should be considered if the LBS should decide to start dating (assuming there is a physical separation).

A WW does not have to live apart from the LBH to classify as wayward. She can emotionally leave the M. Maybe she hasn't dropped a bomb, but the H discovers there is OM somewhere in the picture. From what we read here on the board, the majority of WW's will drop the bomb if she is confronted. If the H confronts the WW, he needs to be prepared to hear that she wants a D......statements that she gave up years ago, yada, yada.

So, how does a H know if he is making it too easy for his WW to come back into the MR? There are some telling signs. She doesn't want counseling, she doesn't want to cooperate in a transparency plan, she doesn't want to do anything to change herself, and she has the audacity to tell the LBH he will just have to trust her. She may shed a couple of tears (which aren't for the H, btw, they are her self-pity tears), but she has no deep remorse for what she has done. She expects him to be able pick up where the MR was left.

Don't take offense with this description, but the wayward mindset is like a disease that eventually affects those around her, dealing with the fallout of her actions. The emotional stress for those who live within the same household, can be devastating. It may be all about her, but it affects the entire family. For the WW, or her H, to act as if she has suddenly snapped out of this disease could be fatal for their MR. I really wish the LBH'S would lose the notion of doing some technique to snap their WW right back into the R. I do believe there are things he can do that would yank her out of the fog pretty quickly, but it should be within that narrow time slot immediately upon discovering her A, confrontation, or the bomb drop. Usually by the time he finds the DB board, he admits to the crying, begging, etc. He continues waiting around, hoping it will just work itself out, as her waywardness gets worse. He tries some of this and some of that, until he has waited too long to have the same effect as it would have initially.

Her wayward mindset is the biggest problem in this entire ordeal. The longer she sees him waiting, the more secure she feels that he can be her fallback plan. As long as she feels she has him under her control (emotionally attached), why should she change anything? The old W would have appreciated him standing for their M, but once waywardness takes over, she sees his standing more as a barrier to her happiness. It will be after she weathers the storm of waywardness that her appreciation for her H will be felt.

Let's say the WW tells the H she decided she'll stay in the M if ___________(fill in the blank). In other words she gives him her conditions. Amazing! Remember, he is so focused on getting her back and busting a D, that her conditions sounds okay to him. He figures it buys him time and they can work out their differences later. But for whatever reason she has decided to stay, (usually some form of pressure......like finances) it does not take care of those three main conflicts stirring within her all the time. Resentment, disrespect, and rebellion will come forth in only a matter of time, b/c she has not worked to resolve those issues.

Her resentment becomes intolerable for her, and her lack of respect
for her H eats away like a cancer. Her rebellion has not gone away, either. It nags her and tempts on every hand. Even if she made an effort to end her A, these three issues are supplying her with plenty of excuses to contact OM again, or to go out and party all night, or maybe surf some dating sites, whatever may beckon her to act inappropriately. Some women are better actresses or can cover-up better than others, but it usually doesn't take long for the H to see their MR still has big problems. These three issues cannot be swept under the rug. In fact, I believe they are intensified if she gets back into the M too easily.

In order for her to become who she once was, that waywardness has to die all the way down to the root. It is very unpleasant for her, and it is a process much like pregnancy, labor, and giving birth (which that takes nine months, and this may take longer). My point is it can't happen overnight. She can't just "snap" back to being like she was before she had all this mess in her heart, no more than she can spit a baby out the minute she conceives. She has to go through the morning sickness, the cravings, and the burden. She has to deal with misery. Then comes the real pain.....LABOR! She thinks she's dying! It's too hard. She can't do it, and wants to give up. She has to keep pushing, with the whole sweat & tears stuff, until she accomplishes this birthing process. So goes the process for the WW's.

This process is necessary for her to become even similar to the W you recognize as loving in the past. She will respect her H, and she can once again have those loving feelings for him. She can earnestly reach out to her children and work to repair the hurt the caused them (as much as humanly possible). Her attitude/heart will be receptive and cooperative to his transparency plan. She welcomes the opportunity to prove herself as being trustworthy. She is willing to get help through counseling or M programs, and do whatever is necessary to piece together a strong MR with her H.

[Starsky309]

[u-turn]

Sandi - This so much describes my situation and my WW.

I never thought I fit into this forum very well because my wife never said she wanted to divorce me, never left, never was verbally abusive or even angry. Just disrespectful with the lies told and secretes that she had. She just continued to live a double life that she tried to hide as well as she could (and she got very good at it) - and lied to me and everyone else about it. It seemed like this is exactly what she wanted.

Now, when she says she wants back in to our M, she is not indicating that she wants to do any work to get there. She only wants to get closer. This to, to me, may only be a more highly advanced cover of what she may actually want - both (with me as the family and him as the - you know).

The minute I pushed back with some things that I needed - NC & transparency, she lost what seemed like momentum in her return. In fact she has refused to give me anything that I have asked for.

If I let her back as easily as she seems to want it, without seeing any real changes in her, I don't think that I will trust again. I will always be looking for signs of OM or another OM.

Sandi- Thank you so much for starting this thread and continuing with sharing your wisdom. You are awesome.

[Joe46]

U-turn, my wife is very similar. Never talked of divorce. But the lies, secrets and double life are what I am also dealing with.

Sandi, this helps me alot! I have been thinking lately about how I would accept my wife back into the M if she approached me about it. There are several things that would have to happen and it would take some time. Lots of time I think.

[sandi2]

I wonder how many others have done things so wrong in the beginning of a S that they have pushed the balance of power regarding kids, decision making etc to the WAW who it seems should be the one outcast from the family setting for her actions, not relocating it and having the LBH be outcast.

You can read the scores of threads about other LBH'S who made terrible blunders out of fear and desperation. If only they could see from her eyes just how pathetic they make themselves. The LBH who reacts in this type of manner is so removed from the man he was when she first fell in love with him.

I'm going to be terribly blunt with you, and hope anyone reading on will learn from your mistakes, b/c you have made some serious ones. I have to ask if you would want to spend your life with a woman who emotionally abused you? B/c that is what you are doing to her when you threaten suicide if she doesn't do what you want. Do you think it appeals to her sympathy? Do you want her to stay out of pity for you, or in fear of what you may do to yourself? Can you see this being a form of control? I hope you are serious about not ever trying something like that again.

I believe most women would see any kind of threat from the man as him controlling her. You said you threatened to expose her A. Did you expose it or just threaten her? I sent a post earlier about keeping the road home paved smoothly, and explained how I do not believe that means for a man to be a doormat, afraid to upset his WW. Let me add that any form of abusive behavior from the H definitely makes for a rocky road back home. You probably cringe when I use the word abuse, but you have to stop with the threats. No woman will fall into the arms of the man who threatens her.

WW's will use two primary cards with their LBH's. One is guilt, and the other is control. She guilts the H in manipulating him to do whatever she wants. If he clamps down on her, she claims he is controlling. I have not read your thread, so I don't know what all has taken place. Perhaps she is the worst b'tch to walk the planet, IDK. But I do know that these actions from you are "controlling", and now she can legitimately use both cards to play against.

You can be an example for any of the LBS, b/c both men and women have done the same as you. I don't know how recently this all took place, but now you are concerned now about how to approach or face her when you go to get the kids.

Let me lump you and any other LBH'S together when I say you need to stop with the antics. They don't work, and you can make matters much worse. Which, considering she's in an A, moved away with the kids, and has the upper hand.......seems questionable, right? It's true, though, you can be your own worst enemy. The LBH can louse things up by trying all kinds of gimmicks to get her back. Ironically, it is when he drops all of that stuff and leaves her alone that works better than anything. Just stop trying to get her back, b/c it is causing you to do bad things.

Use the time you are leaving her alone to turn yourself into an attractive, confident man who doesn't have to beg someone to love him. Grow as person and build a new life. If the two of you get back together some day, you can introduce her to your new friends and interesting activities. Please don't let your eyes just skim over these words. It is said so much here on the board until I wonder if men tune it out. They are looking for something quicker and easier. Drop the rope you have around her, change yourself, and get a life.

Also, get a lawyer! This goes for you and some others who asked about scheduling child visitstion and what the H is responsible for financially. You need legal advice and assistance or you may lose your kids. I don't know where you live but find someone who will fight for your rights as a father. Have a legal appointed child support amount you pay, and a schedule for when each parent has the kids. I know that some couples try to work this out without legal help, but a lot of WW's take advantage and punish the H through these two avenues (money and kids). And, a lot of LBH'S use their own children, consciously or subconsciously, as an excuse to contact the W......or even punish her. Don't be a slave to her demands, her time schedule, or her calendar. Don't allow her to bully you. The fair thing to do is have it all in writing and have an outside source, preferably legal, to enforce if necessary.

As for how to act when coming face to face, again I suggest you avoid it if you can. At least until you feel more confident. Don't be afraid to face her, but avoid it as an opportunity to interact with her, right now. You need to pull back as far as possible. For example, if you go to get the kids to take to school, can you wait in the car for them?

I know things must look very dark, but you can turn yourself around, and in time she could be attracted to the new you. It would almost be as if she were meeting a new person and learning to trust him.....only harder. This is will take a long time to really change, and longer for her to fully believe it will last. Plus, she has work on her side of the street, too.

I want to offer you hope, yet I want you to realize it will take longer than you think.