If you are just checking in, I hope you will begin with the first thread I started on the subject of a wayward wife. I am on my IPad and don't know how to paste both links, without getting lost. Maybe someone will do it for me.
With so much response, let's continue with the discussion of how the LBS should not feel, nor take, responsibility for the S's affair.
There's a difference between feeling guilty for setting the stage and feeling guilty for the affair,
Exactly! Thanks, NH, for your input. I think it carries more weight for the men to hear this from other guys who have experienced the same ordeal with a WW.
Is it fair to say that any LBS could misplace some of the guilt they feel, to cause them to believe they are responsible for the WAS's affair (or other wayward behaviors)? From what I have seen in some threads, it seems this follows shortly after they do the deep self-examination. Perhaps it is a response to those feelings of guilt, and they don't see the lines clearly?
I'd like to take a crack at this one as well, over here on the new thread.
I think for a man, this goes to the very core of their role as "protector" of the family, their home, and of his wife. To get rocked by the bomb drop of unexpected infidelity -- coupled with a period of self-reflection (and perhaps coupled also with some choice words of spew and truth from their cheating wife) that reveals to them their own faults and the role that they may have played in creating an environment in which their wife could have an affair) . . . well, it just totally rocks your world.
YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling.
So while one should never accept the responsibility or the blame for their cheating spouse's destructive decision to have an affair (they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around) . . . I can at least understand why a man would.
The problem comes not just with the misplaced blame, btw, but more importantly with the strategic and tactical decisions that such blame causes the betrayed spouse to make. It totally skews their PURSUIT-vs.-DETACHMent motor, just to name one aspect.
In the last thread, Alpha asked some questions you all can answer. . Since I usually post too much at once, I will paste his questions, and hope some of you will respond.
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Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?
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Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?
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Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?
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I hope I haven't asked too many questions. I've tried to keep things general so that any answers help as many LBH's such as me.
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My answers are intended to be general, also, which sometimes are taken the wrong way. So, specifics do help.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Can I revisit this - "responsible for making happy" theme?
I think we all have a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for our spouses. By this I mean we know of examples where partners have been critical, angry, negative and so on. And I think these things cause unhappiness in the recipient.
So, I think there's a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for others in such ways. But I think the primary responsibility for happiness lies within ourselves. But it would be difficult to be happy with an angry, critical, negative partner if you see what I mean.
However, if you have a partner who is generally pretty nice, and 'good enough' and you are unhappy within yourself, that may well be more yours to fix.
Does that make sense?
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
I'd like to take a crack at this one as well, over here on the new thread.
I think for a man, this goes to the very core of their role as "protector" of the family, their home, and of his wife. To get rocked by the bomb drop of unexpected infidelity -- coupled with a period of self-reflection (and perhaps coupled also with some choice words of spew and truth from their cheating wife) that reveals to them their own faults and the role that they may have played in creating an environment in which their wife could have an affair) . . . well, it just totally rocks your world.
YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling.
So while one should never accept the responsibility or the blame for their cheating spouse's destructive decision to have an affair (they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around) . . . I can at least understand why a man would.
The problem comes not just with the misplaced blame, btw, but more importantly with the strategic and tactical decisions that such blame causes the betrayed spouse to make. It totally skews their PURSUIT-vs.-DETACHMent motor, just to name one aspect.
Starsky
Starsky, you and Sandi keep spouting gold here. Both of you know the 2x4s you've had to apply to me on occasion because I kept pursuing. That pursuit was often clothed as losing my temper, begging, mind reading, and more, but it was all based on guilt. It kept me paralyzed. I'm still more reactive to W's emotional state than I should be. When she's calm, she speaks lucidly about our sitch, when she panics, it gets very ugly very fast. She knows my guilt buttons and has no problem using them.
I love your "predator" reference. Back when I was still making the mistake of attacking OM, I'd often refer to him as a "predator" or "home invader".
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
In response to your first post in this thread, I would have to say that I have swayed wildly between blaming myself for my W having her A and blaming her for physically engaging in it. I suppose it is different for everyone with regard to their personality, how 'strong' or 'weak' they are emotionally, the length of the A maybe, also maybe the length of the marriage.
If I give myself up as an example then things become circular: I am shocked and upset at my wife initially. She then says I drove her to it for reason(s) X. I wrestle with this but through high emotions come to agree she has a point. Emotions at this stage are volatile and when they wane I also feel anger at her. At this point (specifically for the A) we are both to blame. Things eventually start to settle in your mind and once again I blame only W for the A. I take responsibility for problems that lead to the A, but the choice to engage in one is hers.
In my own case I did actually say what was written in a post above, i.e. if you were unhappy with our R you could have talked about it or ended it. My W accepts this but refuses to be drawn on why she didn't take either option, and instead just says 'well, it's done now isn't it?'
I find the whole thing amazing. A woman who relatively recently would cuddle up, have intimate times together etc does seem to have been abducted by aliens and begins to behave in what can only be describe as highly illogical and 'strange'. I know she is responding to emotions but wow, the WS is a funny beast.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
Can I revisit this - "responsible for making happy" theme?
I think we all have a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for our spouses. By this I mean we know of examples where partners have been critical, angry, negative and so on. And I think these things cause unhappiness in the recipient.
So, I think there's a responsibility not to cause unhappiness for others in such ways. But I think the primary responsibility for happiness lies within ourselves. But it would be difficult to be happy with an angry, critical, negative partner if you see what I mean.
However, if you have a partner who is generally pretty nice, and 'good enough' and you are unhappy within yourself, that may well be more yours to fix.
Does that make sense?
Yes, I totally agree with that and you've put it well, Toots. While it's not our responsibility to be their CAKE, but rather their FROSTING, it's also incumbent on us not to do things that deliberately RUIN their cake! Harley calls these "love busters."
Hey Vanilla, how'd I do on the metaphors, O Queen of the Metaphors???
I love your "predator" reference. Back when I was still making the mistake of attacking OM, I'd often refer to him as a "predator" or "home invader".
Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word.
I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!
Now see how smooth Starsky could say all of that in a few words? It would take me pages, and you all would be trying to figure out what the heck I was saying.
Seriously, I appreciate any help you can give.
I sure don't want anyone to think I am saying I know how the LBS feels. One of the really good things about this board, is how we all learn from each other. I have learned so much from other people's experiences, and I continue learning.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Maybe someone will do it for me.
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