I echo the sentiments above concerning the OM,OP for that matter, seems the WAS appears to be an easy target, maybe both are married and they from the "us against the world" type thing ... but yeah the LBS is not the one pulling the trigger on the A, as bad as a marriage could be there is an honorable way out if one has the courage to do so .. that's divorce before jumping into another R, after all the work one does after the BD its easy to see why so many of the As fail, that does not take away act though.
Thanks Joe, it is really good to hear you say this about yourself.
We have mostly referred to affairs b/c that seems to be the common denominater across the board, however, as I have pointed out in my own personal waywardness, it is not limited to just a one-person-affair to qualify as a WW. It is more like she adopts a different lifestyle from her usual one. It's as though she is living a double life.
How much of a clash the two lifestyles cause, may determine how bad she crashes, IDK.
Referring back to Starsky's remarks about how the WW (and all that's thrown at him) affects the very core of a man.......I hope you caught it.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If I may throw something in here, and I know I've asked a lot of questions already, but it's this: I have looked and looked through this site and elsewhere at how a LBH (or W for that matter) might implement the last resort technique when there are children involved. On the surface it would seem simple, keep contact to a minimum and only child related. In reality life is not so simple, particularly with children involved, and I wonder how feelings of personal guilt, abandonment of children, guilt implied by S, and other factors come into play when you are at this stage.
If this is not where you would like this discussion to go then please forgive me. At the same time if anyone reading this has any good resources relating to this then I would really appreciate them letting me know.
It's the perfect place. Those who have been able to use the LRT with children still in the home, would probably be more than I can. I can tell you this much, I have seen it done!
My SIL divorced her first H and they had two small children. The judge decided the schedule for holidays, visits, etc. there was no phone calls, texts, or emails. Didn't even have cell phones or home computers at that time. Yet, the world figured out they. Old co-parent without them.
She hated him, and if they ever spoke face to face, I never heard about it. She says they didn't. They had a third person to run interference, if absolutely necessary. They may have had passed notes back & forth by the kids, at swap time, IDK.
My point is that our society has become too dependent on mobile devices and having communication at their fingertips. Even today, my H and I don't make calls to each other during the day (unless one has been sick or for some percise reason) b/c we did not have those things available or grew dependent on them when we were younger, so we don't feel the need now. I get so amazed at how younger couples act these days. They can't get through the work hours without calling to see how the other one's day is going! They act so emotionally dependent on each other. What do they do If they are S and co-parenting, they are constantly contacting each other to "discuss" something of "importance" like reminding one of them to bring the kid's coat or there is a ball game, etc. It seems unnecessary IMHO, b/c I have seen it work without that contacting back and forth. It looks more like an excuse in order to get to make contact. You have a fixed schedule and that's that! None of this changing day from day. That's horrible. Unless there is a true emergency you don't contact the other parent, and have a third member to intervene, if possible.
If there is no chance of having someone run interference, then narrow it down to more than once a week to work out "logistics" (as all the parents calls it) and it should not be that often. Once a month is better.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If there is no chance of having someone run interference, then narrow it down to no more than once a week to work out "logistics" (as all the parents calls it) and it should not be that often. Once a month is better.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'm grateful for this thread because there are a few things I understand about DB, but that's not one of them. Not yet.
Is the LBH responsible for his WW's affair?
I'll share my feelings, not the DB position. I do feel guilty about the A. I see that my WW had given me signals that she was unhappy in the R. In 2009, her cheating made me realize that she was willing to leave the M if she was unhappy. Yet, she told me she was unhappy in several ways and I ignored it.
In public, my position is that she found someone new because couldn't deal with the daily routine of a long term R. Inside though, I think of her email telling me she's "miserable" or the email earlier telling me that she sees an IC because of all the things in her life that make her sad and that I'm one of them. I can imagine her asking her friends: "How long do I have to deal with this? Is it normal that I feel this bad? Why am I walking on eggshells in my own house? Why do I feel better away from home? Why am I not happy to see my H? Why do I feel hate for him?" We say that M should be fixed until they can't. My W decided that she had reached the end of her rope.
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
(they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around)
Isn't this what my WW did though? She met OM in mid-August. They quickly grew close and developed what I guess is an EA (no evidence). She realized her M was dead to her for a long time (had been complaining) and left me in early September. Then she developed a R with him and announced it to me in November. Didn't she do the right thing?
Originally Posted By: sandi2
We see all the time how actions of one spouse can make the other spouse very unhappy. Are we responsible for making them unhappy?
I struggle. I criticized my W profusely (apparently) and made her feel nervous around me. How is it that I could be such an a-hole and not be responsible for her feelings? She holds me accountable for her unhappiness and I feel sleazy claiming that I can't be, only she is responsible for her feelings. Yeah, right.
Reflecting on my failings as a H is one of the things that make me long most for WW, even as I feel more detached than ever. I regret making her feel bad and wish I could hold her in my arms and make it right. Someone else is in charge of that now. But I never think of writing her a letter, at least not as long as she's with OM.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I have looked and looked through this site and elsewhere at how a LBH (or W for that matter) might implement the last resort technique when there are children involved. On the surface it would seem simple, keep contact to a minimum and only child related. In reality life is not so simple, particularly with children involved, and I wonder how feelings of personal guilt, abandonment of children, guilt implied by S, and other factors come into play when you are at this stage.
I have two young children (7 and 3) and I am pretty close to dark. There are several days when we don't interact. The exchange of kids happens on Fridays at daycare where we leave a bag or suitcase, so we don't see each other. In fact, I've seen WW only once in 2015. Our communications are usually by text and to the bare minimum. The kids have no contact with the other parent when they're with one. When a kid is sick (cold, flu), we often don't even inform the other parent, we just deal with it. In fact, if the other parent has nothing to do, we don't contact.
For me, I want to get out of the way while she's with OM. It's mostly for myself because it helps me detach. I don't see how guilt and abandonment can play a factor. The kids are taken care of, we split 50-50 so there's no abandonment, I'm not happy that I don't see them half the time but more interaction with WW won't fix that.
I hope this helps.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza and I have been step by step going through this process, but I see we treat what's going on with the kids differently. I struggled up front holding onto the logistics with the kids as control without even realizing it. I couldn't distinguish between what is best for the kids without automatically assuming it is getting back together.
W and I go to MC (mediation) every week at her request because for some reason she doesn't want to talk with me directly. I have done my share of bring up our M in the context of the kids, but we went 2 months w/o any contact at all about the kids. My sitch is quite different since I really had no indications that W was unhappy, mainly because her A was going on for so long. She's admitted she tried to talk to me once, one year prior to BD. Looking back, I really thought she was having a bad day and it had nothing to do with me. I never heard about our M being bad, her being unhappy with me, etc.
I'm one that has fed off her emotional status and have not reacted calmly to some of her spew because it is so far fetched. However, my 'consistent' actions have been about providing structure with the kids during the sitch. I see that is what has made the difference for myself and I can better understand convos about kids and convos about us. The toughest part is when kids ask questions about why mom left, why can't we work it out, etc. It's tough trying to teach kids about resolving conflict when to them their parents can't.
Also, we can't forget our WW are struggling with their own morality in the sitch and we as LBS become intimidating of the reminder to them that where they are may not be as dire as they had thought ( they probably assumed there was no turning back)
If you look at the LBS's here, you see the constant of them getting stronger while the WW seems to degrade emotionally as time goes by. That's because this site has really pushed us all to look at ourselves and understand what we can change and not be the 'protector' for our W's.
I sees that during talks, WW has created the fantasy of a WW centric view of life and as discussions about kids come into play, it challenges those thoughts. Without the addiction they probably could reconcile their own views, but the constant struggle of that keeps them in their 'fog'
Anyone that has went to IC for really any reason has uncovered that happiness starts inside of one's own skin. Without that, WW seem to peg happiness on how others make them feel. OM makes them feel good, the others make them feel bad. Without an introspective look at themselves, they create this 'fog' to constantly avoid or become angry of sitches that make them 'feel' bad.
So with kids, it's a careful balance; and the protector theme hits us LBS's hard on what we need to do to shelter our kids. That's the toughest part and just tonight, I was sitting by myself looking at how so many things in my life are still going alright, but continue to feel guilty that I can't fix that for my kids. That's why everyone stresses to put them first. To give us peace of mind that we are doing as much as we possibly can that's within our control to make this as eay for them as possible. I can say that my relationship with my kids has never been stronger and I see that WW is now starting to feel somewhat uncomfortable that where there was a good balance while we were together, the kids are naturally erring on the side of structure. My WW said early on that an emotionally stable Mom was better than an unhappy one and now we're in the place that I think she realizes that neither of them are true right now for her. At first she blamed me for that, but it seems as if the consistent action on my part with them has lessened that resentment, but may be starting to affect her reassess not her decision, but she's trying to work out her state of mind as the Mom. i see this by her constantly trying to say that she's not an 'unfit parent.' I used to argue with her on that by saying she walked out on them, but I see that time is taking its toll on her without me saying anything. I don't even say anything when those things come out of the blue, but can see that maybe she's starting to see that conflict in her views.
Last edited by MCS; 03/26/1503:49 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Thanks for all the LRT and child related responses.
I guess my sitch is different in that although W had A, because I handled the fall out of BD so badly (crying/pleading/threats etc) I was in no emotional state to mind the kids. W has moved out with kids and is dictating when I see them (at the mo 2-3 times a week, short periods of time, in her company, no overnight stays with me). If things were 50/50 custody wise I would find it easier to detach as per LRT.
Since she holds all the cards (is the mother, better income, hasn't cried/made threats etc) I see little joy coming from the legal route. I'm hoping building trust can enable me to have more time with the kids to the point where we have some sort of joint childcaring arrangement. This is where fear of abandonment comes in. I long to be there for them but right now I'm not (can't be/not allowed).
3rd party drop offs sound a good idea for future reference, a way to step back and ensure no pursuit takes place. Starksy recommended cozi calander too, which looks a good idea.
We are having minimal text/phone contact right now. I long for more and feel guilt/shame/loss for our R status and our children's upbringing.
BD - 30TH JAN 2015 S - 30TH JAN 2015 PA CONFIRMED - 16TH FEB 2015 (SINCE AT LEAST OCT 2014) CONTINUAL TALK OF D ME: 31 W: 28 T: 10yrs M: 4.5yrs D:5, S:6
Mozza- that's NOT what she's supposed to do. When she meets OM in August and starts feeling her M is dead, she's supposed to understand those are FEELINGS caused by a DRUG like reaction to a stimulant. Then she's supposed to cut him out of her life, wait for 6-12 months past when she feels involved with him, and work on her M with you. She is to tell you of what nearly happened and explain that she isn't just recommitting to the M because she'll never leave, but that she doesn't want to leave under the influence, and that things need to get better or she WILL leave.
Frankly I did something similar in 2011. I was 31 and went through a MLC. I was a new manager and felt old as I worked with a bunch of 24-26 year olds that went out for happy hour every night and did exciting things on the weekend. My W at the time was a SAHM that wore sweatpants, gained weight, and neglected me and put 100% of herself into the kids and her role as a mom. So here I was surrounded by a bunch of young women that seemed to admire me, and I had to come home to someone that ignored me or treated me with irritation. IT STUNK. That is not right.
I developed feelings for one of these women. Nothing physical happened, and there was no EA in the sense that OW DIDN'T KNOW. I never told her, I never acted on anything, no conversations about "us". I just FELT different around her, and she was on my mind TOO MUCH. So guess what I did? I met with my boss AND the OW, told her I was having this trouble, that my M came first, and if that meant I had to RESIGN MY JOB to get away from the situation I would be willing to. I told my W that day what I had done and why.
As it turns out once I came clean the feelings went away almost IMMEDIATELY. And I was actually able to work in the same department with OW because of this and didn't have to quit.
The sad part is that my W considered this a BAD thing on my side, that I "shouldn't have ever felt this way". And instead of looking in the mirror and making any changes on HER end, she blamed me and grew colder which only contributed to our bad M. Funny, I actually am PROUD of how I handled the situation. Had she handled the situation with her OM the same way we'd still be M and could be working on things.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
(they should have talked to you about how unhappy they were, and -- if that failed repeatedly -- they should have sought a separation or even a divorce before sleeping around)
Isn't this what my WW did though? She met OM in mid-August. They quickly grew close and developed what I guess is an EA (no evidence). She realized her M was dead to her for a long time (had been complaining) and left me in early September. Then she developed a R with him and announced it to me in November. Didn't she do the right thing?
No, she didn't. She should have tried maybe one more time to get your attention, and then -- if necessary -- she should have told you she wanted a divorce, BEFORE hooking up with another man.
The whole "emotional back-dating" thing is VERY common with wayward women, especially. "Well I considered us pretty much apart at that point, sooo . . . . "
