Starsky, that is just it...they re-write history to suit thier own conscience...to justify thier actions for what they would have otherwise believed was not right.
Mozza- that's NOT what she's supposed to do. When she meets OM in August and starts feeling her M is dead, she's supposed to understand those are FEELINGS caused by a DRUG like reaction to a stimulant. Then she's supposed to cut him out of her life, wait for 6-12 months past when she feels involved with him, and work on her M with you.
This makes sense. However, it is a rather simplistic approach to the real problem. I had my own OW because I was in a vulnerable and messy place at that stage of my life. I do UNDERSTAND the pull of OW/OM. As Sandi related earlier, it was a shot in the arm when someone pays attention to you and you are feeling somewhat vulnerable. Once it crosses the physical plane, it is VERY VERY difficult to cut off the emotional high from engaging in sexual relations with the other person. All reason flies out of the window. It is all about the 'feel good' emotion and we want more of THAT.
This is why I allude this to being akin to a heroin addict...we will do anything to get that "fix" or high. At that point, we will not listen to "reason" and if you try to bash the OM/OW....WATCH OUT because it will just draw them closer as in a "us versus them" mindset.
If one is healthy, strong and generally happy in their M, they are able to bat away any potential advances by the other person. I have done this in real life because I am confident and secure.
I am not saying that the WAS is blame less or gets a free pass on engaging in an A. All I am saying is that once one touches the "forbidden fruit", then all bets are off....unfortunately. The plus side of the equation is that affairs do burn out because reality creeps in and the true colors of the OP shows up thus providing a stark contrast to the happy, upbeat LBS.
I sorta agree and I sorta disagree, Wonka -- I think it all depends on "how far down the wayward path" they are. I do believe there comes a point where they are so addicted (even chemically) to the PEA rush and to the attention of the affair that it's difficult for them to extract themselves. However I also believe that someone with a strong moral character still knows "right from wrong" even at this stage, and I also believe that BEFORE it gets to this stage is when I'm saying they should sit down and try one more time to get thru to their spouse.
"Honey, I know we've discussed this before, but i AM NOT HAPPY in this marriage, and I find myself losing respect and attraction and love for you and even now finding myself attracted to others. Before I go down a path that I know is wrong, and KNOW won't solve anything, I'm hoping we can talk about this and maybe get some marriage counseling or go on a Retrouvaille weekend or something before it's too late."
Some version of that.
I do understand the pull . . . I just think that morally and ethically, we are still obligated to resist it. And if we can't, we should get a D or at least a S before deciding to have an affair.
Alpha, I wanted to respond to some of the questions you had. As I said, I don't have all the answers, but we can always talk about the issues.
The situation you have about not being allowed to have your kids overnight, and you have to visit them under her supervision, is that a court order? B/c if that is just your W calling the shots, I think you need to have legal representation. She seems to think it's fine for you to pick the kids up and take to school.
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Quote: Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?
If you could be more specific, or give an example from your stitch, I may be able to give a better answer. As I said in the last thread, script does not necessarily mean lit's all ies, but it is usually said out of high emotion and usually not accurate. There is also the BS that WW's spew, so that is why you have to keep your head clear and your feet planted firmly, or it will shake your foundation.
In the beginning of the crises when she drops the bomb, etc., I would say not to believe what you hear her say and only half of what she does. It is all emotional based and she is not reacting rationally, even if some pretend they are. If she pulls you in to her emotional, irrational crises, you will not have the strength to do what you need to do to get a handle on it.
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Quote: Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?
The shortest answer I can give is the script will continue as long as it works for her.
The little longer answer is when she ends the wayward behavior and deals with her wayward heart in a healthy manner.
You see, I think it varies with people. IJMHO, as long as she is feeding this waywardness, I think it continues. If the couple physically separates, and depending on the lack of contact, and she no longer sees him being an obstacle to anything she wants, it "might" slow down, simply b/c he is causing no waves in her life. However, she still holds all that resentment and disrespect, so she's going to continue to blame him for everything. And, the minute he rocks her boat, here comes the script again. Even if he thinks he may be making baby steps toward R, she starts with the "I just don't know that I can trust you". What?!?
In some cases, it takes a D and her moving on to another relationship, or attending the school of very hard knocks, to slowly inch her way out of her rebellion. Unfortunately, I have seen some who never changed. They went from man to man, or drama to drama and their life continued getting more messed up, and yet, would not end their bad behavior. The rebellion just grew until they aged into an old, pathetic, bitter, lonely person nobody wanted to be around.
I believe there are some cases where a personal crises or "loss" can yank them back to their senses, but it sure is not a guarantee. And it is not a one-fix-all experience, or it wasn't for me. However, it did help clear my head enough to stop the direction I was going, to turn around and work my way back.
The best way is the DB way, and for the H to completely let her go. Let her deal with life without him, and without his help. Let her face her consequences without his rescue. Let her see him making a life without her, and being happy in that life. Let her suffer whatever loss hits. But you "let her" out of the love you have, and not out of vindictiveness.
If there is ever a chance for a R, in time, she will stop the spew, the BS, the script. She will make the hard effort to get back to being the person she use to be. But it does take time and it is hard work for her. I cannot stress this enough to you LBH'S. Many LBH'S cannot hold out that long, or she goes on to another M.
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Quote: Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?
That is really hard to say. Maybe some others can give us a better answer. So much of what the WW says and does is all based on her emotions and what is happening in that moment. She may go in circles, repeating these same scenes. (If the H allows it.). That is only one reason why he can't accomplish any headway by having a R talk with her!
The sooner she learns he has let her go, (which seems to take a lot of guys way too long), the "dance" begins. Have you read the link on the distant/pursuit? The H pulls back......it draws her in closer. The H steps forward......she steps back. He has to decide who is leading! If he's smart, he can lead her (by pulling back) all the way off the dance floor.
It is human nature to want what we think we can't have. It sure plays havoc on the LBH'S when he discovers he's loosing his W. It also works on her, if she thinks he is dumping her! That can change the dynamics real quick. If men would just do it!
So, it's hard to say what the next step will be. A lot depends upon the actions of the LBH. But if he does all the wrong things to pursue her in her waywardness, it's a safe bet she will move further away from him. She will put emotional and physical distance between them. If he will just leave her alone and let her experience the process, she may get through it faster. Otherwise, her life usually has to get worse before it gets better. But to write down the steps of what comes next? If I understand what you are asking, I don't have them........or else my brain is dead this morning. Perhaps another LBS will speak up.
If you are asking what steps regarding her coming back to her normal self again, I think I covered part of it. Here are some more detailed steps in her recover. Not necessarily in any particular order. Wait......better yet, I will just list them in another post, since this one may be so long, it slows down the Internet.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Until you've walked in my or Sandi's shoes as the OP, you and others will NEVER fully comprehend nor understand the allure of OW/OM. Trust me, I knew it was "wrong" alright....so does your WAS.
I can see that you and others who are extremely stringent about the line that WAS should wait until D to get involved are coming from a place of such deep, utter betrayal that you take this hard line because it is incredibly painful to experience the receiving end of it. I am not saying that it is wrong to do so....you are in a protective mode. I get that.
My point is that the emotional pull is very, very STRONG like a riptide. Believe me when I say that I have reviewed my situation with the OW, how it started, and how it progressed just made me more aware of how As start after reading the DB books and the Not Just Friends book by Shirley Glass. I forgive myself for my mistake. It was a growth experience for me.
Like Sandi, I have this incredible awareness on relationships in general and how it is vitally important to protect the sanctity of a marriage having been on both sides of the same coin.
Until you've walked in my or Sandi's shoes as the OP, you and others will NEVER fully comprehend nor understand the allure of OW/OM. Trust me, I knew it was "wrong" alright....so does your WAS.
I can see that you and others who are extremely stringent about the line that WAS should wait until D to get involved are coming from a place of such deep, utter betrayal that you take this hard line because it is incredibly painful to experience the receiving end of it. I am not saying that it is wrong to do so....you are in a protective mode. I get that.
I think you misunderstand where my beliefs are coming from. It is my belief before, during, recently after and now LONG after what my wife and I went thru that it's morally wrong for a married spouse to have an affair due to their unhappiness in the marriage, and the fact that "I've tried to talk to him about it, but he just didn't listen."
Do I UNDERSTAND it? Hell yeah -- it's basic human nature. Love, lust, meeting unmet physical and emotional needs . . . I get ALL of it, and have even been through it -- twice. I just think you should end your marriage before you give in to it.
The second half of my post is stating that I DID feel that pull from OW during 2011. That is why I exposed those feelings to OW, my boss, and my W on the same day and offered my resignation. I knew that my M was more important and that I had to eliminate the threat from my life.
I DID have the conversation with my W about me being dissatisfied. It fell on deaf ears. From 2011 to 2014 my M was HORRIBLE and the ONLY reason I didn't walk away is because I DON'T believe in D and would rather die in a bad M having tried for 50 years to make it work than tearing apart a family and trying to find a perfect partner.
Those happen to be MY BELIEFS on what should be done upon the start of EA type feelings. I was simply addressing Mozza's statement about how WAW knew upon having these strong feelings for OM that the M was dead, and I am simply saying that is not a healthy way to end a M. Whether or not others agree, or whether or not they can avoid those temptations or act on their values...that is up to them.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Do I UNDERSTAND it? Hell yeah -- it's basic human nature. Love, lust, meeting unmet physical and emotional needs . . . I get ALL of it, and have even been through it -- twice. I just think you should end your marriage before you give in to it.
Only if it were that simple.....
It does not work for people who are already in a vulnerable position. If one was strong, courageous and clear-eyed, yeah...otherwise there would be no affair, right?
The problem is that many people have already gone past the "give in to it" stage which makes it excruciatingly difficult to extract from the OM/OW. Just like a drug addict refusing to give up heroin or meth. Intellectually, they know that drugs are bad for them, but keep doing it because of the "high."
It's no use to try to make sense out of irrational behavior because rational does not apply to druggies or people in affairs.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Wonk. Like Zeus, them's my beliefs and I was really just trying to respond to Sandi's request for LBH's feelings on this subject.
You are correct that it is not easy at all. This has been a good discussion and we come from different perspectives based on our own experiences. That's okay.
