For the LBH who has a WW Part 3

[Vanilla]

This is so helpful to read in my situation.. My WAS was always dead set against affairs. Helpful and encouraging to read from a WAS that eventually the allure of the OP wears off and you look at your happy contented LBS and suddenly want them back.

Operation make me the kinda girl a man would be a FOOL to leave

Absolutely!

lust v love ted talk

V

[Zues126]

The reason vows and commitment are so important to me is that they provide standards when our own standards might be suspect.

Kind of like laws, religious beliefs...they keep us in check and tell us the right way to behave when we feel like being destructive or selfish. We do what we believe is right as much of the time as we can.

Wedding vows are the same. "for worse, in sickness". All in the vows as FULL DISCLOSURE that things will be difficult. But that we are committing to remain true through that.

If the vows are just words then it becomes a matter of when we feel like leaving. To me that's not a marriage. That's a ride in the sunshine until it inevitably starts to rain.

I maintain that anyone that adds a "but" to the statement "I don't believe in divorce..." truly DOES believe in divorce. I do not.

The sad part and why this touched a nerve with me is that everyone is willing to make those vows, and there isn't a good way to tell who means them and who doesn't. It's unfair to those that mean them. It's like becoming friends with someone and saying "I promise I won't ever physically harm you if I'm angry" and them agreeing. But then they get angry and punch you in the face, and when you say "we agreed not to do that" they say "well, I didn't know I'd get THIS angry, if I'm this angry then I can hit you".

Mozza, I'm not judging you or even saying I'm right to feel the way I do, but we definitely disagree on this one. I DON'T believe it's ok to leave a M unless it's truly an act of self preservation, and the problem with even THAT clause is that WAS's are so delusional that they'll twist a 5 year old argument into "an emotionally abusive relationship that they must escape". And it's easy to get people to validate that.

I will do my best to thoroughly scrub any future partner I have to try to differentiate those that TRULY mean their vows vs. those that believe in fair weather marriages. No guarantees in my life but at least I understand that not everyone means these words equally so will have these conversations with them and look at the way they talk about past relationships to see if they mean it. That is why I'm so inspired by these forums, it's nice to see women exist that feel this way.

[Starsky309]

If the vows are just words then it becomes a matter of when we feel like leaving. To me that's not a marriage. That's a ride in the sunshine until it inevitably starts to rain.

. . .

The sad part and why this touched a nerve with me is that everyone is willing to make those vows, and there isn't a good way to tell who means them and who doesn't. It's unfair to those that mean them. It's like becoming friends with someone and saying "I promise I won't ever physically harm you if I'm angry" and them agreeing. But then they get angry and punch you in the face, and when you say "we agreed not to do that" they say "well, I didn't know I'd get THIS angry, if I'm this angry then I can hit you".

Man, you sure have a way with words, Zues. That was really well-put and I totally get what you mean.


Starsky

[raliced]

You know - I've been checking in on this thread in and all day and I keep having this feeling I am watching an old Miller Lite commercial. "Tastes Great!" vs. "Less Filling!"

Is it possible that given the wide variations in human beings and circumstances that these two views are not mutually exclusive? It seems possible that even in the throes of violent limerance that some potential WASs resist, but I also truly believe that given the right combination of circumstances and timing anyone could probably be unfaithful. Don't get me wrong - I like to think I never would (and I never have) - but that's probably naieve.

[Mozza]

Thanks Zeus126, I appreciate your perspective a lot. It's not so far from mine as I also wish that my W had been as sincere as me when pronouncing her vows. I have this mental image of her eyes full of tears looking into mine as she said them, not five years ago. I'm immensely hurt as I feel she's taken advantage of me.

The slight difference is that, in my view, the M can be ended as long as the spouses follow a "protocol". It would never be a surprise to either spouses. There would be some serious talks, improvement plans, MC, etc until one consistently fails to deliver his share. W and I had agreed on this and even criticized our friends who S or D overnight. As sandi2 said, past beliefs of the WW are no guide for her current behavior.

I'm upset that my W mentioned S when it was a done deal. I would have taken an ultimatum, a break, a deadline — anything telling me that she had reached her breaking point. She wrote me this email about feeling miserable, but it was in the heat of an argument and she had her share of blame in it, so I took her messages as part of this discussion. I realize now that I was blind, that it was more important than that. What would have opened my eyes, and did, was the S word. She never told me until her decision was made, in a haste.

[Starsky309]

You know - I've been checking in on this thread in and all day and I keep having this feeling I am watching an old Miller Lite commercial. "Tastes Great!" vs. "Less Filling!"

Well, yeah, and besides that, I'm pretty sure that what Sandi asked was more like "what do you like better, beer or wine?":

When I first arrived on the board, I was a WW who had the resentment, disrespect, rebellion......and defensiveness. I went head to head with some who hit me with the truth that I was completely responsible for my A. Naturally, I wanted to blame my H. "If he had responded to my emotional needs, I would not have been vulnerable to someone else". I think I actually said something very similar to that statement.

It may be in just a few of the threads I read, IDK, but is there some blame shifting taking place in the thinking of newcomer LBH'S? Recently, it seems we are seeing the LBH accepting all the blame for the actions of his WW. It concerns me for several reasons, but I will try to wait to post it later, and give you a chance to express your thoughts.

Many of us have tried to explain that the H may have had a part in the breakdown of the MR, b/c they usually do, and some have a bigger part than others. Some men have no clue as to what they could have done to cause such an affect on her unhappiness to lead to an A. Part of the early information we give the newcomer is to help them look at themselves, dig deep and see the areas that were weak and needs work. I believe the LBS and/or the WAS who comes to the board, needs to go through the deep self-examination.

After the self-examination, we usually see that newcomer hit wit guilt, sadness, anger at themselves, etc. Some of them become very empathic toward their WAS. They want to write letters of apology or do something to show her his sorrow and regret. Even if we tell him it won't fix things, he has such a need to make it right with her. He wants her to know that he finally sees what she put up with all that time.

Since this thread is about WW's, I want to keep the central thought in that direction. It is good for a man to see where he failed, in order to make corrections and improvements. It is good for him to empathize with his W. It is good that he can own his part of the breakdown in the M. I personally believe it may even be necessary in some cases, to prevent self-righteousness. We all make mistakes in M, but some have serious, devasting results.

No matter the role, I hope everyone here agrees that each adult is responsible for the actions they choose from a free will. A woman puts her wayward heart into action, and willingly goes against her H and/or what is "right" and she is completely responsible for those actions.

I also hope newcomer H's will be able to see that he shares part of the breakdown. Maybe he is responsible for how she felt at times in the M, but it's still up to her as to how she deals with her feelings. It was her choice to cling to the hurt or anger and let it grow into a deep resentment. Maybe he didn't even know how she felt. Maybe she never explained in a way that got his attention. Her emotional needs were not completely met.......his needs were not completely met, and they just tried to make the best of things......or so he thought.

Then one day maybe some guy at work winks at her and it makes her feel good, so she responds in some flirty way. It's just all in fun, right? But over time, one little thing leads to another, b/c her ego is being fed and it feels good. She tells herself it means nothing and she has done nothing wrong. The guy gives her compliments, or seems very interested in what she says or the work she does.......whatever, he pays special attention to her, making her feel sexy, or beautiful, or important. The whole experience is lifting her self-confidence as a woman. She begins looking forward to seeing him on the job b/c she feels excited and alive. Let me stop and ask you, is her H responsible thus far?

As her feelings grow into an emotional affair, is the H responsible? As the contacts and time spent with her coworker expands and the EA eventually turns physical, is the H responsible?

Instead of me continuing to just give my comments, I welcome anyone who would like to join in and give thoughts along this subject, b/c do we have a few newcomers who need some guidance here.

I think we've veered off the topic here. What Sandi was pointing out was why betrayed husbands seemed to feel guilty (and even take responsibility for) their wife's decision to have an affair (and further seemed to imply that these feelings of guilt might be affecting the effectiveness of their DBing). And she wanted LBH's views on that.

Somehow that morphed into FWW's view on whether or not they took their vows seriously. It's all great debate, but I don't think it's what Sandi was asking us all to ponder.


Starsky

[Zues126]

raliced- I have thought long and hard about that. For example...if I was shipwrecked on a desert island with another attractive female, and despite our best efforts to summon help months turned into years and by all outward signs we'd be stranded for many more years or permanently...YES, I would break my vows. So certainly there is a point at which we are all human.

I would also kill if it was in an extreme context (extreme self defense). That doesn't mean that I don't regard murder as the most committal and inappropriate ways we could behave.

And while it's possible to construct these circumstances to prove a philosophical argument, to me the idea that "since we've just proven we're all capable, we all have the potential to be guilty so we shouldn't act like it's that big of a deal" doesn't hold water.

Despite YEARS of frustration, resentment, lack of physical affection, or anything. I was ready to live the rest of my life in a sexless M without feeling appreciated, but I also got years of IC and was trying to find ways to improve the M in which I felt stuck. So I don't appreciate being told "we could all do it" when there is NO WAY I would break my vows in anything like "real life" conditions.

And if my WW did come out of her fog and demonstrated the growth over a period of time that lead me to believe she felt this way, I would STILL be open to R despite my betrayal and pain BECAUSE I believe in M.

Does that mean I am judging or condemning those who do? That I am not empathetic to the temptations and compelling nature of affairs? That I hold myself as a more righteous person? No. I understand that, and can appreciate that we live in a broken world where many people get drawn in to things that conflict what they used to believe is true. I am simply stating my beliefs and convictions and reasserting what I am looking for in someone else.

[Zues126]

OK. You're right guys. I did hijack a bit. Sorry for that. I was starting to view this as a "general thread" when it was Sandi's created for a specific and generous point.

Getting back on track I DO appreciate the contributions I made to the destruction of my M, and understand that my STBX went through horrible and prolonged pain before getting to the point she'd consider making the choices she did. I regret my shortcomings and am still working on them. I regret the pain I caused. And I am empathetic to how difficult this has been for her.

Yet I agree that ultimately she made her decisions and is responsible for them, and disagree that she had no alternative and that my shortcomings voided out our commitments to the M.

There, back on track!

[Closer2]

I contributed to my W wanting to leave this M. She gave me plenty of warnings and tried to talk with me about.

I did not know how to talk to her or what she needed to be happy and feel loved. I think I'm getting better at communicating with her. I finished 5 Love Languages and I'm reading again. It's difficult to practice 5LL while DBing though.

I regret not getting MC before M. It haunts me that the last time she told me she was thinking about divorce I basically ignored her. I thought I could fix our M myself because I fix everything. After awhile, she stopped the complaining and nagging and I thought it was getting better. It wasn't. She had just check out.

DR, DB, 5LL and NMMNG should be required reading before M. I'm sure I'll find many more books that make the list.

[Kramer]

Thanks Zeus126, I appreciate your perspective a lot. It's not so far from mine as I also wish that my W had been as sincere as me when pronouncing her vows. I have this mental image of her eyes full of tears looking into mine as she said them, not five years ago. I'm immensely hurt as I feel she's taken advantage of me.

The slight difference is that, in my view, the M can be ended as long as the spouses follow a "protocol". It would never be a surprise to either spouses. There would be some serious talks, improvement plans, MC, etc until one consistently fails to deliver his share. W and I had agreed on this and even criticized our friends who S or D overnight. As sandi2 said, past beliefs of the WW are no guide for her current behavior.

I'm upset that my W mentioned S when it was a done deal. I would have taken an ultimatum, a break, a deadline — anything telling me that she had reached her breaking point. She wrote me this email about feeling miserable, but it was in the heat of an argument and she had her share of blame in it, so I took her messages as part of this discussion. I realize now that I was blind, that it was more important than that. What would have opened my eyes, and did, was the S word. She never told me until her decision was made, in a haste.

OK, I have been following this thread and really like the robust discussions that it has generated. Your post, in particular, struck a nerve as that is exactly what my wife has done. We had what I thought was a perfect relationship and knew each other well, but apparently not well enough. What I thought were conflicts and disagreements over the last few months apparently were deal breakers and "last straws" for her. Interesting that she has been "miserable for years", and yet never mentioned leaving, separation, or divorce until she started affair and I discovered it. We were cuddling, holding hands, and making future plans until I found out on NYE, and she filed for divorce 1 week later. No counseling, no trial separation, just straight to divorce. I am nothing but a stranger to her now, and she has told all of her friends how horrible I was and how miserable she was. Of course, the reality is that she has OM, and wants to be with him ASAP without feeling guilty. Makes my head spin, and very very painful that I was discarded so easily.