Healthy painfully honest discussion going on here.
Bravo to all engaging in it.
Here's a letter from a WAW to an LBH (not hers, but another guy here) and she's replying to his question of why his wife won't return, now that he's changed...
See if any of it could have been written by someone you know.
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments.
I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
Wow. Just wow, that us some good insight into wife's mind whether with another man or just checked out. It almost seams insurmountable for her to ever come back to the place where she can truely love Her husband again. Dig in boys and man do I still have work to do!
Sandi- getting back to you on why guys are afraid of their WWs...
For me it was because I believed I was deeply flawed and broken, and I had her on a pedestal. And we had a codependent R where I used her approval and love for a long time to reassure myself that I wasn't all terrible. Like "as long as this good woman can love me I must not be beyond redemption".
So when she would be critical, judgmental, or disapproving of me it had the opposite effect. I felt that it proved I was a horrible guy and I suffered a LOT. Then, after a long time, I'd grow resentful for HER MAKING ME feel that way. And I'd start to realize that I'm not all terrible, she shouldn't treat me this way. But I wasn't able to work this through maturely, so I'd let my resentment build and I'd withdraw so I wasn't exposed to more of her hostility.
I guess when you rely on someone else for your self esteem it hurts when they condemn you.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I'm pretty sure I have been labeled the abuser in my r, he did call me craze, overly emotional, nasty. Yes in a way I did ask for needs to be met but any needs I had and asked for there was always a no fault reason why I was selfish even needing it. A justifcation.
He threatened my s17, and hit him, called me heaps of abusive names and gas lighted, yet I was crazee. As other said he did it because I allowed it and by forcing me to try to stand up he could make me look crazier. Me by trying to set boundaries of saying you don't stop absuing it's finished made me the bad guy and meant he could hand on heart say he was the good guy. It was that no win dance, to which like v's h he is still justifying why h was right in h abuse of s17.
We learn to leave those patterns of behaviour behind, thus changing things in the future. Giving us a better outcome, there are no good guys or bad guys, just humans.
M 46 h54 Both married before T 11y Bd 2/14 I must see where ow leads! Ms 18 hs 26
With due respect Scherman, no one makes anyone else feel anything. We first have to "buy in to the view". Good or bad we need to buy in, to agree before we either raise ourselves up or put ourselves down.
We believe what is said, my H told me that I was fat and unattractive. I bought it because I had put on weight and so Plain Vanilla was born. Ms frumpy dumpy. When H said something that I did not buy, "V you are the most selfish person in the world ever". I dismissed it. I allowed those thoughts of H to define me because I adopted it, a better stance would have been "yes H I have put on weight but I am ok with who I am". I learned from the amazing Gg, I got some kick ass shoes and a red convertible and let Plain Vanilla go. Gg advised me as she has you and I listened.
Sherman WW can behave as if she can treat you any way she wants, say what she wants but at the end of the day it is up to you to say "no" "enough" "stop", to take responsibility for yourself. Abuse is wrong full stop, of course it is, and to me it sounded originally like blame the abused, blame the victim. And I did not like it. I felt I had a right to be treated well and I was not and therefore it is H fault. Of course H could chose to of his own accord behave with respect like my past partners but the fact is he hasn't.
It is a self evident truth that until there are boundaries, consequences and we say "no more", that others will often do what suits them. If that is unwanted then "stop". At 60 years of age I learned this. I learned to say "unacceptable" even if I feel like a Plain Vanilla at the moment, still unacceptable.
This is why I say "I will not be abused" rather than "you are an abuser" or " please stop abusing me". I neither label H or give him the power. Stopping abuse is a new tool for me in my toolkit and it can be used on other screwballs as well as H. I will not be abused by them either. Lesson learned higher power thank you.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 04/03/1509:48 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
My kick a$$ shoes and hawt dress was born from the idea h expected me to turn up to collect my possessions and either
a beg and plead B seduce him.
Wel, he knew I was coming ss saw me and spoiled the suprise. I did however take the option h did not expect which was turn up keep it short and leave before his abuse could start.
I did steal the line, oh look is that the time I have somewhere to be, I'm already late.
Which is what h always accused me of being late. as I drove away I saw him literally spinning circles in the rearveiw mirror.
It was powerful, regardless of what h felt, it felt good to take back the decisions and be me as unpredictable as that is.
Last edited by Ggrass; 04/03/1509:57 AM.
M 46 h54 Both married before T 11y Bd 2/14 I must see where ow leads! Ms 18 hs 26
For me it was because I believed I was deeply flawed and broken, and I had her on a pedestal. And we had a codependent R where I used her approval and love for a long time to reassure myself that I wasn't all terrible. Like "as long as this good woman can love me I must not be beyond redemption".
This is pretty spot on. If I had anything to add that the overwhelming feeling of being unwanted has paralysed me from action. The crumbs of affection to keep me on the hook have made it possible to believe that maybe there has been hope for our marriage and that maybe I am not completely unlovable. I am finally starting to see things a little different thanks to you guys.
This is a long post, but I think it has value in this discussion.
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no one makes anyone else feel anything. We first have to "buy in to the view". Good or bad we need to buy in, to agree before we either raise ourselves up or put ourselves down.
I absolutely agree. My wife is an emotional abuser when she doesn't get her way. She wasn't typically able to get me to react that much, especially at the end. I was also putting boundaries up on her bad behavior with the kids/me. Calling her out on cussing or when she got in the kid's faces screaming. I physically pulled her back a lot and got her to focus on me.
The part I did was to repress my anger; which led to me going into a depression. I knew things weren't right and every time I tried to bring it up, I'd been shot down. Where I should have done better would have been to force the issue for S7 sake. But I'm not sure I'd have been in a position to get physical custody like I am now... some things happen for a reason. But I consider this to be my biggest failure in the marriage.
I remember very clearly thinking that there was no way in hell I was going to do what she was screaming explicatives/personal attacks at me to do (even though I was willing to do it if she's asked nicely) and then doing something else on a regular basis. as As an example, Last summer the kids (there were 4 boys last year, 3 foster and our biological son) and I fished a lot on our lake (caught some good bass too! ;)). I was the buffer between her and the kids. She is a very cold/fake person and puts up a good facade. Life with her has been all about her... there is no room for anyone else's want's dreams or desires and this should not be this way in a healthy marriage.
In my professional life, I'm quite successful. I'm a Chief Engineer for North American Advanced Engineering and have some global responsibilities. I work at an $8.4 Billion dollar company. When she'd attack me and tell me how horrible I was at XXXX or YYYY. I'd bring up that it wasn't true because of what I do at work (in charge of $120 million projects for instance, being 1 of 5 going into a global management fast-track program, etc.).
Or at home how I rebuilt our lives from our first marriages. In my first divorce, everything I owned fit under another man's basement stairs. Between us we really didn't have anything. She had a house she'd forced her 1st husband to remodel and it was in studs when I married her. I ended up rescuing her from it and decimating my savings in the process when the market crashed. To where we live now... a house on a lake with 150ft of lake front.
When there was a spew session, examples like my work or successes at home would make her attack even more and she'd genuinely try to destroy any confidence I had. The arguments fed the beast so to speak and she'd try harder to beat me down and would get soo mad that she'd slam/break stuff or go drive around sending me hate texts.
I tried to envision myself as the rock and letting her crash against me. But I was angry with her about the relationship dynamics. So I have my own issues with the IC to work through which are different from the first time around. My current STBXW is much closer to my mother's behavior. Even my Dad agrees I married my mother in this one.
There was a lot of things I let go, that I loved doing, when we first got together because of the fights. She expected me to keep her entertained (how draining) and over time I lost who I was. Heck, I even remember telling her early in the marriage that we need to get her some hobbies because I couldn't do it constantly. She also decimated a lot of my friendships or wouldn't let us socialize with other people. Again, this should not be this way in a healthy marriage.
Can we say HUGE warning signs?
My STBXW decimated her older son's (mid 20s) confidence/self worth when he was growing up and he wants NOTHING to do with her period.
For the mother of my child, I allowed things like this to happen that I should not have... just to avoid the spew, abuse, personal attacks, and hate speech. It was easier to exist with it than to change it (again a failure on my part). So in many ways, this is a favor for the rest of my life and S7's life. I just need to learn new behaviors and understand my triggers.
The IC and I have talked about managing my impulsivity when it comes to relationships... that this is where people get themselves in trouble.
I can also say, that I was seriously contemplating divorce myself last year. I almost started something that I shouldn't have, but made the choice to stick it out for S7 and FS8 sake, but didn't do anything to change the fundamental dynamics of the relationship and I should know better from what I learned in my first marriage (different type of personality than the current wife). I'm not sure what I could have done against her brick wall besides leave.
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Sherman WW can behave as if she can treat you any way she wants, say what she wants but at the end of the day it is up to you to say "no" "enough" "stop", to take responsibility for yourself.
Agreed. But in my case, a lot of the WW behavior occurred constantly over 7 years. My SIL is convinced that if the W had not been pregnant (she wasn't supposed to be able to have kids), then I would not have married her based on stuff that happened when we were dating.
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Abuse is wrong full stop, of course it is, and to me it sounded originally like blame the abused, blame the victim. And I did not like it. I felt I had a right to be treated well and I was not and therefore it is H fault. ... It is a self evident truth that until there are boundaries, consequences and we say "no more", that others will often do what suits them.
I'm not appeasing her anymore. We were at war weeks ago and she didn't know it. As she's found out the preparations I put into place, she's reacting/bouncing around trying to find the chink. Unfortunately, the only one is through S7. For this, I have to get physical custody and I came to terms with loosing it all to make that happen. He's an innocent in this and we both deserve a lot better in our lives.
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it can be used on other screwballs as well as H
That cracked me up and I got a good laugh with this line.
as I drove away I saw him literally spinning circles in the rearveiw mirror. 
