Claire, getting there!

[Underdog]

Claire,

I've been away from the board for awhile - my life has been hectic, and my D21 got home from college last weekend for a 2 week visit.

My questions mirror those of Mozza's.

I do want to ask (aside from the content that it appears he wants this D and you don't), why 1) you feel this is a negative interaction; and 2) what minutia is in the details of why he feels it is not safe to talk with you?

Betsey

[claire7]

Thanks so much Mozza and Betsey.

You've both already helped me see this slightly differently. (Aha, he feels it is not safe to talk to me-- an issue from within our M that still persists, so I have not changed his opinion of this. Since I can only control me, what can I work on. I have some thoughts about that. ..

I'll write more tonight when I can use the computer instead of my phone. Just to clarify though... I no longer want to be married to him, but I was expecting we would do it without involving the courts (through mediation or at least collaboration). And everything he has said has been along those lines. So, this new development felt like a blow.

more later.
Thanks. Very very much.

[claire7]

Underdog and mozza,

Tell us more about this long email.

It was quite polite. I don't want to reveal too much, but I guess I can say this:
--he felt like the process was taking too long
--he thought he could handle wrapping up the financial part himself, but now realizes he needs help to do that (mostly because work is so busy, something he's mentioned to me a number of times)
--he said he doesn't totally know what the document his lawyer is drafting will say, but that it will aim to fix a date for the equitable distribution of our assets, and that it will require me to respond to his lawyer and the county clerk.
-- the document will require signed acknowledgement of receipt, so 'we can discuss' whether it makes sense for him to give it to me.
--he's been 'clear' to his lawyer that he doesn't want to create additional conflict or tension or have this settled in court.
--"I hope you can see this action as an attempt at resolution. A way to allow us both to move forward with more clarity"

So, in my response, I basically called him out on it. I expressed frustration that, although he says he wants to keep this out of the courts, he is allowing his lawyer to file an action in court. I'll have no choice but to be wrapped up in a court process. I told him there were other routes we could have taken that would have met his needs-- to move the process along and to get help-- besides engaging a traditional lawyer and serving me with a divorce summons. I said that if he wanted to stop the clock on accumulation of assets, we could have drafted a letter and both signed it-- outside of court. I named it: "what you have done is hired a litigator and taken this to court"

That didn't go over well. (I can see that. It was fairly hostile, and I didn't really validate his concerns, though I did acknowledge them).

His next (two) replies were really interesting:
1) "My understanding is that you and I will not have to involve the court. That this will be more along the lines of a letter. I understand that you don't trust me much, but I'm doing everything I can to avoid making this worse. We need to move forward and we've been unable to do that. So I'm doing what I feel is reasonable to get there while being very very vocal about my goals and how I would like the process to go"

2) A response like the one I sent 'typically makes [him] feel guilty' His IC says he needs to give himself a break more often. He writes, "I've been pretty patient through this process. I've been generous with my time and commitments." "I want to be respectful of you, I don't want this to become angry or onerous for you" "I am going to choose to not feel guilty for engaging a lawyer to help me through the next step of this process"

Like an idiot, I responded again, with further explanation of my perspective and little acknowledgement of his. SMH. I explained that collaborative divorce would have met his needs (and, also mine) better than the route he's taken. I said, "I don't believe that expressing my concerns and frustrations means that I am trying to 'make' you feel guilty."

And the last reply from him (which felt more negative): "Why don't you just wait to see what the document looks like before 'deploying labels' that this will be litigious or not transparent. It's one thing not to trust me, it's another thing to jump to conclusions without any proof."

Could I work on validating his concerns more? Sure, absolutely. It's difficult to do that when he doesn't just express them, but also takes action that has a material impact on my life!

And... I feel like there is a bit of manipulation here (or maybe he really is very naive??): There is no 'proof' that this is going to court?? It's more like a letter than a divorce summons? (A 'letter' that requires acknowledgement of receipt and response to the county clerk?!?!)

Betsey, I hear what you are saying, and certainly with many years of co-parenting ahead of us, it's in my and my D's best interest for him to feel like he can open up to me about his concerns rather than take action and then break it to me gently.

I know I could have responded differently (and then perhaps he would have, too). And at the same time, it feels phony to say things like, "I understand that you feel like the divorce process is time-consuming and difficult, and that it's hard to fit this into our busy lives" when he says it AFTER he's made a major decision. There is nothing to discuss with him now. It's done.

Trying to process it all in a way that helps ME move forward with my head held high, with dignity and grace, and most importantly, GROWTH.
Thanks.

[SunnyB]

Claire, just wanted to say hi this morning. I'm going to be watching these posts carefully and try to learn something. The whole legal thing is really intimidating to me.

The only comment I have is

And at the same time, it feels phony to say things like, "I understand that you feel like the divorce process is time-consuming and difficult, and that it's hard to fit this into our busy lives"

Why does this feel phony to you? Isn't it true? Saying it doesn't mean that he didn't choose it, just that it's a hard process. And it is.

I have two teenagers and I've found that often all they want is for me to listen. I try to validate them as much as possible, to bite my tongue and keep my really great advice to myself. I apologize frequently because my goal is keeping communication open, not being right or teaching a lesson.

Treat your H like a teenager. Keep those lines of communication open for the sake of your D. Yes, your H is being a pain in the *ss right now. But take a deep breath and remember that it will all be over and you'll still co-parent together for a lot of years.

[claire7]

Thanks Sunny, Underdog, Mozza, and others who have chimed in. I've been trying to cut back on my time here-- I don't quite feel ready to be a solid advice giver, but there doesn't seem much more for me to say and the landscape in this forum has changed. There are so many new folks, which is sad of course, but has also helped me see that I am not a newcomer. I've been at this a while.

When I first got here, I asked if DB was worth it. I can now definitely say yes, it is. Someone advised me at the beginning that I may not save my M but I can save myself. And that had happened.

It's ironic and unfortunate that I didn't find DB sooner, as it might have made a difference. Before I knew about DB and before my H left, I made a promise to myself to begin working on ME, and to be patient with him if he didn't notice those changes right away. So, intuitively I had started DBing without knowing it! But because I was not really knowledgable, all of that went out the window after BD. I made so many mistakes. I pushed him further away. It took a few months for me to find this community, to get a DB coach and to begin DBing in earnest.

I think it was just too late by then.

I leave my M with my head held high and hope for my future, even though there is plenty of fear. I know I can handle whatever comes.

It's time for me to move on from newcomers I think. Surviving D seems like the right place. I know 25 YEARS MLC and Mr. Bond say to remain hopeful, but the more I reflect,the more I see that the relationship was never right. There is nothing to hold on To. Maybe admitting to myself that I'm done will help me move forward in a more positive, less resentful way. I don't really know -- this is what I'm working through right now. Can I move on in this way without feeling like he was right all along? I'm not sure that's the story I want to tell. Maybe, I wanted to work on our marriage, and I think we could have done well, but both of us needed to be invested in that.

I'm Rambling a bit but want to tell this forum how instrumental you have been in getting me to this place of strength and clarity. I am so grateful.

Onwards.

[SunnyB]

Claire, you seem to have gained some strength and clarity recently, and that's great. I hope that you see what a marvelous woman you are. And I hope you know we all think your H is a fool. I'll look for you on the other board, and may join you there in due course.

[claire7]

Thank you SunnyB. I do think I have become someone only a fool would leave, but we all have to revise our lives around his choices and mind set. I've gotten such great feedback from dear friends, new friends, colleagues, and even strangers here and IRL who have heard part of my story that I have inspired them and that I seem strong and positive. Those are not really words folks would have used to describe me a few years ago.

SunnyB, I hope things work out the way you hope but if not, we are all rooting for you.

[Mozza]

Hello claire7 - This is a post with a lot of strength. You seem to be taking yet another step to be happy, to be in control of your life. I like how you're looking for ways to be less resentful of your H, because your resentment hurts you more than it hurts him anyway. I hope you'll come to post under the Surviving the D section because, even though I know little about this one, this community can always be supportive and helpful. Take care.

[SunnyB]

SunnyB, I hope things work out the way you hope but if not, we are all rooting for you.

Thank you Claire. I really don't see a way out of D right now, but I'm not ruling out R somewhere down the road. At the same time, I'm not going to hold my breath, either. I'm going to live my life and trust that God's plan and timing are perfect.

[Underdog]

Claire,

I haven't been here in awhile either. I took time off to work through my grieving (I had another death in the family last month, and this one hit me hard) and to enjoy time with my D21 while she was home for 2 weeks.

Anyhoo...

I don't have much to say in his communications, but I want to note that he makes one good point that would probably serve you really well to work on - if only to assist your parenting. As Sunny mentioned, being the parent of a teenager often looks a lot like this minefield. You have to pick your battles, and really, REALLY test your communication skills. I will tell you that my R with my D21 at 17 and 18 was horrible. And I didn't use the skills I gained from DB until someone here suggested I do that. (Which turned out to be the advice I needed to really turn things around with her.) Teenagers want us to listen, not to offer unsolicited advice (VERY, VERY DIFFICULT!), not to judge, not to jump to conclusions, and not to assume the worst.

Your H's point about not coming to conclusions before you see something that is based on facts is undoubtedly a gem. I really don't know how your story will turn out with your H, Claire. But for now, setting new goals would do wonders in getting to a good place with him, your D, and most importantly, yourself.

Use the techniques to work your new communication goals. Not outcome goals.

And BTW, after I employed the tactics I learned long ago to my D21, a few days later she said to me, "I know you've gone back to the board, and whatever you're doing, it's working. So do more of it." LOL, that's exactly what I learned here: do more of what works and less of what doesn't. How much more simple could it be? Apparently, I had to do things the hard way with her.

Some day, I'll come back to this message and comment on the meat of his content. I will say that it appears as though he's got some goals of his own in counseling, and please know that they have little to do with you, Claire. But I have to applaud his willingness to do things that hurt to be clear. I hope some day you'll come to appreciate that. I know it's not the outcome you wanted for your family, and I really do understand an applaud YOU for doing what you needed to do to try and turn this ship around. YOU get the applause for doing it too.

One day, maybe you'll look at this exchange as a defining moment. You were both authentic. It's more than a lot of people can say.

Hugs,

Betsey