In the process of separating - Help!

[Zues126]

(originally posted for Pyrite HI PY!)

I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

CONCLUSION-

So, the funny part about all of this is that SHE FEELS THE SAME WAY. She thinks you didn't play the cards she needed to feel happy. She excuses all of her poor behavior as the "natural" reaction to being treated so poorly from you. She thinks what you did is far worse. This extends all the way to the "cheating". In her mind she would've never cheated had you not emotionally abused her for years, and it was only because of your actions that she was forced to take refuge in someone else to preserve herself. Then she remembered what a 10 felt like and decided that you were just an Ahole that played 1s-3s, and she can't have that in her life, and she found someone that plays 10s, so see ya later.

Now you're not playing the game anymore. There's no more interaction. SO YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING DISAPPOINTED OR RESENTFUL. You start to find it easier to act like a fine and upstanding citizen. This further proves to you that it must've been her driving you crazy. WRONG. It's easier to conduct yourself well on your own. You're not better! If you were in a relationship again tomorrow you'd be back on the downward spiral again, and you'd be dropping 2's and A's on people in a controlling way until they left you as well. Why? Because you haven't learned another way yet!

For you to judge her on the cards she was playing and excuse your cards because they were the only possible reaction is not going to get you anywhere.

Step one is acknowledging the truths above, taking ownership for your behavior REGARDLESS of the context, and deciding what type of man you want to be. Step two is forgiving her for the cards she's played because now you see how she's done nothing you haven't also done. Step three is learning how to take responsibility for your own happiness so you don't resent your future partner for not being able to chemically maintain euphoria in your life. And step four is learning coping mechanisms so that you are able to maintain responses between 5-10 even when you feel hurt, threatened, or rejected.

When you reach that point where you can be truly ok without a woman's love to make you feel ok, then you can be free to choose to respond lovingly much more often. Oh, and that cheater that just dumped you? Maybe if you had the strength before to treat her differently she would've responded differently. That's the whole DB/DR idea- control your half of the dance and you'd be surprised at what you see in exchange. Of course, it will never be all 10s, that's why you have to grow a bit first. And if you do, people will take notice and you'll be ready for a truly successful M. Who knows...maybe she'll even notice...maybe she'll learn these things on her own after her fling dies down...you can't control that, but if YOU can't learn it how can you expect her to? I say lead by example and act with the character you wish she was utilizing. Maybe if you become the spiritual leader and walk this path she'll notice, and maybe follow suit. If not, you'll know you did your best to save the M, and more importantly you'll need an M to make you happy LESS, and be prepared to have a happy M MORE.

[EMO1234]

Zues126

I agree with every sentiment you've written. M is SACRED particularly when children are involved. I believe M is about two individuals coming together with a common understanding and love - over the years this common understanding is lost due to resentment building up, a busy life, stresses and lack of communication. I do not want to lose hope that this M is over but it is difficult when you have a H who seems to think I can read his mind and not hear any real emotions from him (or perhaps my emotions are preventing to hear it).

I have basically told him he can still come back after 12 months but I am also fine if he decides not to. I am hoping he does come back, but I do not want to go over the anguish of everything falling apart again in 12 months time so I need to look after myself.

I have started to GAL for myself and with the girls. I have started to do things around the house that I would have seen as his "role", like fixing a light bulb, planting trees in the garden. He on the other hand has chosen not to socialise, is withdrawn and basically stays indoors (this I know I cannot fix so I leave him be.)

I understand that my behaviour has also contributed to the failure of this R. I am passive aggressive, dislike confrontation, have a jealous nature ( particularly the last few years), have some self esteem issues - like my attractiveness/appearance.


I will apologise to him about my behaviour this morning and I do hope I can change my actions to be positive rather than have negative outcomes.

Thanks again Zues126, your posts have been insightful.

[EMO1234]

Zues126

I was the HDS and my H was the LDS. Initially he was the HDS when we first meet but this changed after we had kids. He controlled when we would engage. Over the years this has become an issue and I tried to engage but feel rejected every time it failed.

I also agree that sexual difference does not have to destroy families, I also see it as an opportunity for growth in a R if both are committed to address the issue. My H says the lack of desire and passion is no longer there and cannot be brought back. I disagree. I have tried to discuss other options - sex therapist for both of us etc but this has fallen on deaf ears and I've realised will not change his mind.

So I've decided not to bring up our SL anymore or try to "persuade" him that it can be fixed...

[EMO1234]

So I've re-read Sandi's rules and have basically broken rules number 1,3,6,10 & 35. Have cut and paste the rules so I can read every day.

So tonight, I had a volunteering information night with an NGO, had arranged with my mother to drop our Ds to hockey pick them up and feed them dinner. My H texted to say he would rather be the first point of call if I needed help with the Ds. After my meeting, I realised he had called several times. As soon as I got home I apologised stating that my phone was on silent. He asked why was it on silent and asked why I can't tell him where I was. I kept it short and replied I had a meeting with an organisation.

We spoke about the search terms he gave me for the router, that it need to be more specific. He replied he can't remember the words he put down. He then stated he would "prove" to me that he would not access porn sites anymore and that he would speak to his counsellor about it. I replied that he didn't need to prove anything to me. He then stated how he felt monitored with me snooping around and that perhaps if I showed some trust in him with what he said it would be a positive start. I replied ok, I will. He then asked, with my need to discuss more about the R what did I want? I smiled and basically said I will talk to him later, when I put the filter app on his ipad.

He texted me a few minutes ago, asking if I was coming down as he was going to sleep soon. I replied sorry no, will come over tomorrow night. He then rang me, asking why I wasn't coming down and basically he was starting to feel anxious ( i am assuming about the R conversation) I made an excuse that one of our Ds wanted me to be in bed with her and I really needed to sleep early with work tomorrow. I've basically chosen not to speak about our R until he is ready too. Asking me what I need to know clearly indicates he is not fully ready to have a talk.

[Zues126]

Good job reading the 37 rules, and working on some GAL activities. Also, glad DB/DR are on the way. Remember to keep them to yourself.

I would highly recommend a DB coach. I wish I could offer some hard facts like "A DB Coach will increase your rate of growth by 600%", but I can't. I'll just say I think people trying to think their way out of this on their own would be like someone trying to give themselves a heart transplant. You (and all of us) are so hopelessly trapped in your point of view that even the big changes you think you're making are all within the confines of your context.

Control, control, control. That's the nature of your M. I see it from both sides in so many ways. Him trying to control you by manipulating you with depression, threatening abandonment, withholding affection, or by making promises. You putting filters on his search engines, postponing talks, or escalating discussions of separating.

Realize that when one person tries to control the other it is often from their darkest and weakest emotions...fear, resentment, insufficiency...control doesn't work, and the person who is trying to control is actually BEING controlled by their emotions. Even telling H "I don't care what you think anymore" is controlling, it is designed to spur him into desperation to change the way you want him to, because if you didn't care you wouldn't make that comment. My examples can be debated but the fact is I know lost my M because by trying to control my STBX into loving me the way I wanted, I drove her to leave the M.

You can't change him. You really can't make him quit porn, any more than someone can make their spouse quit alcohol, gambling, etc. Emotional blackmail or ultimatums just lead to more bad feelings, and there is NO DOUBT in my mind that he will fail. He probably loves you deeply, but he will feel hopeless, like he can't do it, you'll never forgive him, it's a lost cause, and he'll never have his needs met by you anyway...and at those low moments he'll figure since he's so despairing he might as well feel some comfort. If he is going to quit porn it will be because he realizes how it's negatively impacted himself, you, and your relationship. You can't make him see that. It is a hard journey, and you are missing that. You don't have to enable or permit disrespect or lies...but judgment, threats, punishment...that is more control and co-dependency. If your friend's husband was a good man wrestling with an addiction and she was talking about walking away, ultimatums, etc, maybe it would be easier to see.

Nor can you accept a lifelong partnership with a man that withholds affection, uses porn in a way that feels like a betrayal, and uses his emotional hooks to try to control your behavior at every turn.

DB/DR preaches "It takes one to tango". The whole idea is that you can change you, and in turn change the M. So if I could offer anything beyond support it would be to do the following:

1. Slow down and be humble. You seem to really want to DO SOMETHING to make this better right now. That urge comes from pain, from impatience, from fear, from resentment. Not good emotions. Think about your yoga, how restless your mind becomes when you first try to let go of thoughts. You're going to need to let go of a lot, and I would recommend not making major decisions, ultimatums, or power plays while you're this emotionally charged. And be HUMBLE. You can tell yourself "I'm done caring, this is my new attitude/point of view, I'm over it", etc, and think you are now enlightened and everything you do is from a transcendent state. But the reality is that's our mind tricking us into thinking we are in control. We don't get to simply 'decide' that we are now free of feelings from an 18 year bond. It takes time. Have the humility to admit you are deeply interwoven with him, fragile, and being influenced by a lot of emotions you need to sort through. This takes time, so slow down.

2. Get a DB coach. Heart transplant.
3. Read DB/DR. Most of us start with DR. Sections on finding your own happiness, takes one to tango, dealing with a depressed spouse.
4. If you want to read my thread, you might get a pretty good roadmap of where your H is, how your behavior has impacted him, etc. I can tell you in my M I needed one thing more than anything- my wife's understanding and acceptance of my sexual desire. That was ultimately what brought us down. When I look at women who lost their marriages I always want to ask "Did your man feel like he could share his sexual fantasies with you? Did you validate those desires and try to honor and satisfy his needs" I doubt the answer is ever yes, I can't imagine a husband walking away from an M like that, and I can't imagine an H staying in an M where he felt misunderstood and diminished for years. It's THAT important. I won't say you've made him like this (porn addict, "low drive" spouse which is actually controlling because obviously he has needs more powerful than you understand) because he is responsible for his actions...but you are definitely responsible for yours.

So I think it's a good time to be humble, slow down, get some help, and work on understanding. Let go of the need to dictate how progress will be made. You got yourself into this mess. Let go and trust in God to show you the way out if you can ease up on the reins.

You can do this EMO.

[EMO1234]

Thanks Zues126

My H and I got us into this sitch. Just a query, did you in your M open up about your sexual fantasies with your STBX? Why couldn't you? This is the point I want to make to my H. I too had desires, just like him but we were both too caught up on the rejection, the angst, the stressed it caused.

He opened up the door on talking about our R last night. Should I take it? The thing is its always me who talks and he doesn't contribute. I am reluctant to persue this conversation until he initiates it. Any advice from vets out there?

[Zues126]

Yes, I opened up to her about my fantasies. I told her I didn't want to act them all out, that wasn't what I wanted...I just wanted to be able to share with her the desire in my heart. During the times I felt she understood my desires and then was close with me I felt more fulfilled and loved than anything I've experienced. Unfortunately those times weren't enough, and I felt like a dangerous attack dog that had once been a loving pet turned vicious by abuse and starvation.

I am deeply remorseful for how I behaved during my M. I grew resentful at her. I was impatient. I withdrew affection. And at times I pressured her and manipulated her to give in to me so I wouldn't get angry. The sorry thing was I needed her so much that even then I felt loved and fulfilled, when she was feeling broken and abused. I was like a man in the desert drinking water, it felt so nourishing I couldn't conceptualize the way I got it was wrong. When I couldn't force her I turned to porn more and more...'I'm not worth enough love to survive? Fine, obviously I can't trust you with my heart and soul so I won't ask anymore and I'll take care of myself.' Those were the periods when we didn't speak. I couldn't dare open up to her, and she wanted nothing to do with me.

The topic is much more complex than that, I've learned a lot about where my needs came from, the dynamic between the two of us, etc. I just didn't want to write you a book. The point I wanted to make is that I know myself to be a good man and I did some monstrous things. I honestly don't blame my STBX for writing me off. I can see why she would think I'm just a "controlling abusive insensitive sex addict". There is some truth there, but it's possible she threw the baby out with the bath water and that's not all there is too me.

I wonder how many of these "diagnosis" we assume are permanent, that could actually be overcome with compassion, managing our own behavior to change the dynamic, and patience...I hope you can find out with your H EMO. I think that's what "for better or worse" really means. Not turning away when he's down and casting him off as defective, proclaiming yourself as a victim to a world that will celebrate the healing and liberation of a strong independent woman from another weak minded and abusive man.



As for your question, I would move slowly. Your thoughts and emotions have been all over the map, so I would hesitate to have a conversation where you make bold statements. BE HUMBLE. BE STILL. STFU. RELAX. Time is on your side EMO. Impatience and emotional reactions are the enemy. Chill. If he wants to talk, listen, validate, and keep your mouth CLOSED. Let it assimilate. Digest it. Take small bites. If he gives 100% intensity, give 60% back. Tell him you appreciate him opening up and that you're trying to be open to what he's saying. Then come here and talk about your thoughts, feelings, and sort through them where it's safe, where it won't have life long consequences.

PS- Get a DB Coach!

Oh- one more thing. Thanks for being cordial. I am surprised we're still speaking given how painful this conversation is. Thanks for understanding I mean well.

[EMO1234]

So basically I haven't replied to any H's texts and calls today - is that wrong? First text was about money, second was if he could give our Ds dinner. So the first text I could have replied - was at work, second and other calls he made I couldn't because I was in yoga class! H comment was if I could reply to the girls text about playing on the laptop why couldn't I reply to his? H further commented he knows what I am like with texts since we've been together for 18 years. H also asked if the communication between us was going to change. He has been feeling low being downstairs and not seeing the Ds this week (my turn). H feels that our communication has regressed over the last week (true since I found about the porn!) and then said that if I didn't seem so angry/peeved off he was going to ask me to join him and the kids to a country show this weekend. I kept my mouth shut for most of the time, I didn't bite on what to me were some negative comments.

I know I am portraying a cold/peeved off persona at the moment - can any vets tell me how to break this mould and seem positively happy in front of him and how do I respond to his question about our communication?

Lastly I said to H, thank you for the opportunity for wanting to talk about our R but I have chosen not too talk about it for a variety of reasons - was that ok?

Validating and staying positive and happy in front of him, is so hard!

[EMO1234]

Oh and one more thing, I told H wasn't going to put a filter app on his ipad. He mentioned about trust last night, that if I trusted him more it would be a good start. I told him I trust his word. His comment to me - "no, I encourage you to do it because I want to prove to you I am not visiting those sites", he then mentioned he spoke to his counsellor about it, I refrained from asking did he tell him everything! H then commented don't do this if you are going to wonder if I am on it - I sighed and said no I won't because it's not my conscious.

[EMO1234]

Text from H tonight:
"W, I respect you enough to know that you wouldn't intentionally let the Ds overhear you discussing elements of me that you are not happy about but please consider our eldest D bat ear and that she picks up our phones from time to time and could accidentally read messages. Thank you for your time earlier. H"

The fact is I have been very careful not to mention anything bad about H infront of the kids. He is a great father, so where has this come from and how to respond?