Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11
Zelda09 #2578015 06/13/15 04:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Warning Signs and Red Flags

I did not write this. It is a mashup from reputable pages on the web dedicated to helping people recognize abuse. Ignore gender pronouns. There is a lot of cross-over between verbal, emotional, financial and physical/sexual.

What I would like to offer from my personal experiences growing up under an abusive alcoholic narcissist and a more covertly abusive sweet sensitive type H: Abusers use many of the same tools, but each is unique in public presentation and the set of tools they use. There is no single portrait of an abuser. Often the portrait of the abuser we have in our heads keeps us from recognizing the one we may be dating or married to. Shy, humble men can be completely different creatures to their wives, mothers and sisters. They can use their public persona in the heat of battle - "I'm the nicest guy anyone knows, clearly you bring this out in me." In general, if your partner can quickly calm down or become congenial when he/she needs to - they were never 'out of control' to begin with - they were exerting it.

At times, I think, most of us are guilty of treating a partner in verbally/emotionally abusive ways. The following list can also be a good inventory for everyone here to DR, to look at the toxic, hurtful ways we have treated our spouse and to start making those changes personally. Sometimes we say and do these things out of frustration, sometimes selfishness, a bad day...the difference with abuse is that it is rarely met with an apology, there are patterns, or there is a significant amount of it that seems irrational and unprovoked.

The key question, I believe, is this - Is this person succeeding in making you feel less than yourself, certainly less than themselves, and are you increasingly nervous or afraid to voice yourself in any way out of fear of a negative reaction or 'punishment' of some sort? The feeling of being unbalanced or walking on eggshells in your gut can be one of the best indicators.

Here is another test - does the hurtful/abusive behavior your spouse treats you with and calmly defends himself for (if confronted) - would he/she use the same twisting logic and righteous attitudes in a room full of his or her peers? If the answer is no, they are not simply ignorant of their actions. This is an abuser who knowingly behaves a different way behind closed doors and is forcing a very strange universe unto you.


VERBAL

•Being called names by your spouse. Any negative form of name calling is unacceptable. If you feel that it is a put down, then it most likely is. There are names that are obvious and, without question abusive. Then there are the covert, veiled attempts to put a spouse down that are harder to identify. Verbal abusers love to use constructive criticism to beat a spouse down. If your spouse is constantly criticizing you, “for your own good,” be careful. This is the most insidious form of verbal abuse.
• Using words to shame. Critical, sarcastic, mocking words meant to put you down either alone or in front of other people.
• Yelling, swearing and screaming. I call this the “walking on eggs shells” syndrome because you are living with someone who goes verbally ballistic for very little cause.
• Using threats to intimidate. No threat should be taken likely, even if your spouse tells you they are only joking, especially if it causes you to change behaviors or to feel on guard in the relationship.
• Blaming the victim. Your spouse blows his/her top and then blames you for their actions and behavior. If you were only perfect they wouldn’t lose control!
• Your feelings are dismissed. Your spouse refuses to discuss issues that upset you. They avoid discussion of any topic where they might have to take responsibility for their actions or words.
• You often wonder why you feel so bad. You bury your feelings, walk on egg shells and work so hard at keeping the peace that every day becomes an emotional chore. You feel depressed and have even wondered if you are crazy.
• Manipulating your actions. The persistent and intense use of threatening words to get you to do something or act in a way you find uncomfortable.

PSYCHOLOGICAL/EMOTIONAL


•;Do they give disapproving, dismissive, contemptuous, or condescending looks, comments, and behavior?
•;Do they treat you as though you are inferior to them?
•Do they make you feel as though they are always right?
•Do they remind you of your shortcomings?
•Do they accuse you of something contrived in their own minds when you know it isn’t true?
•Do they blame you for their problems or unhappiness?
•Do they continually have “boundary violations” and disrespect your valid requests?
•Are they unable to laugh at themselves?
•Are they extremely sensitive when it comes to others making fun of them or making any kind of comment that seems to show a lack of respect?
•Do they have trouble apologizing?
•Do they use pouting, withdrawal or withholding attention or affection?
•Do they not want to meet the basic needs or use neglect or abandonment as punishment?
•Do they play the victim to deflect blame onto you instead of taking responsibility for their actions and attitudes?
•Do they not notice or care how you feel?
•Do they not show empathy or ask questions to gather information?
•Does anyone treat you not as a separate person but instead as an extension of themselves?
•Emotionally degrading you in private, but acting charming in public
•Do they not protect your personal boundaries and share information that you have not approved?
•Do they disrespect your requests and do what they think is best for you?
•Do they require continual contact and haven’t developed a healthy support network among their own peers?
•Threatening to leave
•Withholding approval, appreciation or affection as punishment
•Turning everyone against you. This is a sneaky trick that emotionally abusive partners use to gain advantage and leave you feeling helpless. Your partner may constantly crib about how difficult or dumb you are to everyone, including your friends, your family and even your kids. Your partner may even give biased examples just to convince everyone else and turn them against you so no one would take your side against theirs.
•Isolation and dependence. Initially, your partner may tell you they don’t like your friends or a particular family member. Soon, they may tell you to avoid that particular person. And before you realize it, your partner may carefully isolate you from everyone who was once close to you. And one fine day, you’d see that the only person you can go to for help or depend on is your partner.
•Monitors what you're doing all the time
•Unfairly accuses you of being unfaithful all the time
•Prevents or discourages you from seeing friends or family
•Prevents or discourages you from going to work or school
•Threatens to harm himself or herself when upset with you
•Mind games - This can mean scare tactics, emotional blackmail, unpredictable mood swings, random acts of cruelty, humiliation, ignoring your emotions, flirting with strangers, being condescending or demeaning of your feelings, lying or even theft.
•"Crazy Making" - an example - to steal a partner’s money then accuse them of paranoia if they ask where it is gone.
• Painting a picture of you as the abuser, convincing you that assertive and normal actions, or your personality, is somehow damaging them. You back down and lose your voice to avoid hurting them.


PHYSICAL


•Smashing things - this is intimidation, bullying.
•Breaking or striking objects - This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
•Sometimes, your partner may resort to physical abuse like a slap, a painful pinch or even a threatening gesture just to scare you into submission when you oppose them for anything.
•Any force during an argument - This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someone back in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
• Playing/intimidating with knives, firearms or taking them out to intimidate, either subtly or overtly
•Hurts you (by hitting, beating, pushing, shoving, punching, slapping, kicking, or biting)
•Uses (or threatens to use) a weapon against you


FINANCIAL


•Using economic power to control you
•Controls how you spend your money, tracks every penny
•Increasing financial dependence on you without basis or agreement
•Forced family or career choices onto partner for control, limiting work hours or trying to create dependence
•No personal bank account, or actual joint control over account or money
•Maxing out your credit cards without your permission.
•Refusing to give you money, food, rent, medicine or clothing.
•Using funds from your children’s tuition or a joint savings account without your knowledge.
•Spending money on themselves but not allowing you to do the same

STALKING

•Show up at your home or place of work unannounced or uninvited.
•Send you unwanted text messages, letters, emails and voicemails.
•Leave unwanted items, gifts or flowers.
•Constantly call you and hang up.
•Use social networking sites and technology to track you.
•Spread rumors about you via the internet or word of mouth.
•Make unwanted phone calls to you.
•Call your employer or professor.
•Wait at places you hang out.
•Use other people as resources to investigate your life. For example, looking at your facebook page through someone else’s page or befriending your friends in order to get more information about you.
•Damage your home, car or other property.

SEXUAL

•Your partner emotionally manipulates you into sexual activities you don’t like. They may even emotionally arm twist you by saying things like “Other girls/guys do it! Why can’t you?”
•"Playful" use of force in sex - This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
•Forces you to have sex against your will
•Controls your birth control or insists that you get pregnant

Last edited by Zelda09; 06/13/15 04:08 PM.

Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



Zelda09 #2578018 06/13/15 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Feeling Hurt vs. Abuse

V, I liked the list of non-abusive behaviors you had.

I think these are also important distinctions, for example, someone needing time to themselves is not the same as someone withholding affection to punish. The intent is the root of it.

The actions that one takes within their own personal physical, emotional, spiritual, mental space may leave us feeling disappointed or hurt.

I imagine these spaces as 'bubbles' we draw around ourselves in those spheres. We can allow others in if we trust and we know they are safe to be within those happy spaces. People who aggressively and negatively push into those spheres are not safe people.

The key differentiation is when asking is someone hurting you, or are you simply feeling hurt, are their actions within their space? Or are their actions aggressively in yours?


Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



Zelda09 #2578020 06/13/15 04:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Z
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 755
Taking Responsibility

This, Dr. Phil wisdom, in line with the boundary cheat sheet.

•Take responsibility. You have played a role in setting up the relationship this way, and you must play a role in changing it. Telling your partner that the treatment is unacceptable is not enough. Your actions speak louder than words, so you need to make two bold moves: Change your own routine or behavior, and tell your partner you will no longer take the abuse.

•"There are no victims, only volunteers." Don't go along to get along. Peace at any price is no peace at all.

•Relationships are always up for renegotiation. You need to sit down with your partner, look him/her in the eyes, and tell him/her that you are taking a stand. You will not stay in the relationship if the abuse continues. From there, begin to negotiate. Figure out how both of you can take strides to make the marriage work.

•Watch yourself to make sure you don't fall back into the victim role.


Mid 30's
Psych-abusive M with violent tantrums from XH
D 9/15; NC forever on

You can't DR your way out of abuse.



Zelda09 #2578059 06/13/15 06:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Vanilla Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
How serious is the abuse?

I created this monitoring tool on Verbal Abuse based on the Categories in The Verbally Abusive Relationship Module of the Freedom Programme

I posted this on thread 12 page 4 after seeking many sources of help to modify my own behaviour to improve the R, as the lower levels of abuse were countered H escalated at this stage level 4 was a daily event. i had been effective in dealing with levels 1 to 3 . H had started some level 6 behaviour that of attack and intimidation.

At the point of the scoring had not been to the police but I had recorded the rants etc. the stronger the boundaries I set and the firmer I enforced those the higher the level of abuse. The abuse was also public H expected everyone to agree with him.

Eventually I had VSO and contact with an abuse recognition program called the Freedom Program. This is UK initiative and is available on line. it is available for the abuser and the target. The purple remarks were on thread 9 and the red on thread 12.

I have restructure again for this thread putting the items in level order and correcting minor spelling, grammar and layout issues.

_________________________________________________________

These were Vs original thoughts but actually did not really know if I was correct at the time I wrote it.

These have been inserted from two or three sources and after discussion with VSO. I need practice sessions but I will keep adding as I find responses work or not!.

Identify the abuses in your R and prevents you from being your authentic self.

(V added the scoring: I like scores)

On a scale of 1 to 10

Blaming Level 1 abuse : refusal of responsibility
This is the most frequent abuse tactic, intended to control, put down or make another responsible.
How much do you accept blame in your R?
H=3, V=2

V no longer allows H to blame her, if she is in the wrong she apologises and corrects or atones (12 step 8). No longer works for H. Example H blames C for having no friends or money.

Response that is best : "Stop accusing and blaming me immediately." "stop it!" "I do not want to hear that again." "You are talking to someone you should respect." " Do not say that in that way."

No justification, these are stories made up by H about my motives. Explaining or justifying continues the abuse cycle. If the criticism is valid that can be acknowledged later. This is like throwing a rock through a window, stopping the thrower from doing more damage.


Opposing Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Treats as adversary and argues against anything, perceptions, opinions, thoughts and feelings. Says "no" outright without discussion closing down constructive conversation.
How much opposing is in your R?
H=6, V=2

H gets very few requests from V, but not really one of H characteristics. H LL is Acts of Service. Example H rants "I am a racist"

V now has a tendency to say no to H almost without thinking and this needs review

Counters feelings or perceptions, deliberately misconstrues, refutes that you have said something. Best response is "stop", "let me repeat my statement".

Do not explain the view or this too will be countered, no arging, "I do not see it that way" "I have a right to my own views". "Hold it, can you repeat that or write it down". "Stop countering me". "As you say". Then leave.


Blocking and diverting Level 1 abuse: denial
Abort conversations, make accusations and effectively say "shut up"
How often is discussion closed down in your R?
H=4, V=1

V talks too much sometimes but has had to learn the difference between blocking, closing and evading. parking is V choice of response. H choice expression "do not go there" but V defers and parks and often the need to boundary enforce is needed. Does not happen very often these days. Much better on this. Example H saying he was working when he was at golf. Denies his apple juice rant.

This is thwarting in the worst way. Keep repeating the request (fogging)
An answer which is "no" or "I do not know " is neither blocking nor diverting.
Instead say " you are creating a diversion" and "if you do not know then I reserve the right to find out".


Discounting Trivialising and Belittling Level 1 abuse: denial
Minimising or trivialising feelings, thoughts or experience. Suggests feelings are not valid.
How often are thoughts, feelings or experience discounted in your R?
H=3, V=1

Simply does not work and therefore not used by either H or V. Example V is incompetent at work, useless, she doesn't know better and has no idea.

Devalues the self. "I certainly do not feel supported when I hear this" "I have heard all I need to hear".

Lying, forgetting and denying Level 1 abuse denial of responsibility
Concious lying is manipulation. Addicts and compulsives may deny agreements or promises, a conversation took place, even prior abuse. They may ever declare love and caring. Crazy making, referred to as 'gas lighting' . Particularly evident in gambling and hidden stages of addiction. Can even mean lying by omission.
Are you aware of lying and denying in your R?
H=10, V=1

As far as V is concerned H is a master at this, V tends not to believe anything that H says without independent verification.Example: H has even lied at GA openly, not disclosing the length of time he has been gambling. Nothing V can do on this but try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps identifying areas where H may not lie and giving more trust. In 12 steps we learn that love is possible without trust.

Do not believe the denial. Do not say how this hurts frightens or disturbs you. Never try to explain or understand why the lie etc has occurred. No anger, use of authority will help, no try to explain. V did not make H anything, "mad" "hurt" "abandoned" or any other thing. Best response "this is crazy making", "stop it", "I do not believe you. Do not let this happen again"

Judging and criticising Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Evaluating, giving unwanted advice, and telling others what they 'should do'?
How much criticism and judgement do you accept to keep your R?
H=4, V=7 (of self)

V is very sensitive to H criticisms although she does not react. She is also likely to impute the wrong motives every time to H. That is judgement but she does not criticise much to H directly. H judges everyone and everything, nothing is good enough for H. H expects perfection. V finds this rather amusing. Example V is fat unattractive and repulsive.

Needs work by V, V needs to find more that H is doing right. V also sits in judgement and criticises herself too much. She is kinder to others even H than she is to V.


These have been real blows to V self esteem. Constant and endless Defining another is real boundary infringement.

Suggested responses "do you hear yourself" "stop judging me" "cut that out, enough already" "that is not acceptable" "nonsense" " keep your views to yourself" "that is my business" " that is not your concern, it is mine" then disengage, further discussion promotes further abuse.


Play, jokes, sarcasm and teasing Level 1 abuse: denial
Wit, ironic, overt praise and always painful to the recipient. Concealed Judgement.
How much smiling judgement do you endure in your R?
H=8, V=2

H when called on his words or behaviour often says "it is a joke, where is your sense of humour?". Very hard to counter, Example "you father should smother your mother" V needs more techniques to counter this. Considering more IC in March.

This is a I am better than you or at your expense and is very immature. Do not try to explain what is unfunny or inappropriate or ask why the 'joke' was said . Do not laugh or wonder about the maturity.

Best response: " I wonder now you have said that, put me down, interrupted me, do you feel more important? I want you to think about it" then disengage. " This conversation is over" or "I will get back to you on that".


Name calling Level 2 abuse: control
Insulting and bullying.
How much do you use this tactic and accept it in your R?
H=3, V=1

V walks away now, screaming banshee used to return insult for insult. No more, enormous progress on this one. Example V doesn't even know how to shop she buys the wrong bacon. Stupid idiotic V.

Best response: "Stop that, do not call me names, ever." "I do not want to hear you call me names again ever." "This is inappropriate."

Ordering level 3 abuse: threats
Instead of requests instructing, treating another like a 'slave'
How much ordering or instruction is in your R?
H=1, V= 0

This just does not work with V although H would try it. Example we are leaving now, at a dinner party.

Best answer "who are you ordering about?", "please ask nicely" or "I make my own decisions". If uses we as in "we are going" then response is "that is not what I had in mind".

Covert aggressive manipulation Level 4 abuse: unexpected
Different from passive aggression. A power play using charm, implied reward, compliments, suggested punishment or withholding, helplessness, guilt, shame,self-depreciation, empty apology or playing victim. A manipulator may appear non aggressive and act aggrieved. Response is guilt, defensive confusion and capitulation.
How active is this component in your R?
H=10 V=2

This is the new H playbook, dropped the other tactic and this is the new and latest leading. V is often not observant enough to notice and she wants to believe H. Example apology I know that I have issues and buys gift.
Counter measures need investigating.


Silent treatment, be matter of fact "I am very bored with this and am going to leave."
Sit with headphones More work needed on this, I still do not fully understand the best way to deal with it.


Undermining and interrupting Level 4 abuse: accusing then criticising
Undermining with statements such as "you do not know what you are talking about" speaking on another's behalf without permission
How much are undermining and interrupting evident in your R?
H=8, V=9 ( of self)

Oh yes a big one this, V wants to do more work on this as she is vulnerable in the work environment. V can be interrupting others at work too. Example, you are taking the piss as you have no idea and don't pay me properly.
V has identified a big issue to work on. However this is not as evident in her personal relationship now, but is a work issue.


This is cruel and covert. "I do not like your attitude" "that was low" " stop, cut that out" "this is the opposite of fun" .

Withholding Level 5 abuse: passive aggressive control contempt
Designed to encourage compliance and destablise. It is very irrational, no fight, no argument, and no obvious anger. A refusal to respond, no contact whilst active in a R. Whilst carrying on conversations with friends, discover plans only through friends. This is shunning and distain could be evidence of an A. Exceedingly toxic. Not talking about NC or dark here.
How much withholding and withdrawal in your R?
H=. V=

Question not answered by V at the time but an Example is H going off and meeting with single women in their homes and they are only friends! It's none of my business ever what he does with his money even when he does not contribute to joint expenses.

Raging abusive anger/aggression Intimidation Level 6 abuse: attack
Designed to intimidate and control.
How much anger is in your R?
H=4 V=2

V gets annoyed but parks it. H has calmed down a lot since this first event has happened. H used to use this to get his own way by merely standing pointing and invading body space. If it happens again it's a deal breaker for V.

According to VSO, the most dangerous of all. Get away immediately and if necessary with evasion. Just leave. Example I know people who can sort you out, and no one will ever know what has become of you.

If slight control " Stop, please talk to me calmly." " Do not raise your voice to me."
Pay no attention to the words, look at the tone and posture.
If threatened : "Stop threatening me." "I do not want to hear this." " Leave me alone." " I am leaving now"

--------------------------------------------
Approximate time line.

Level 1 abuse: until October 2014 10 months

Enforcing boundaries 1 month

Level 2 abuse November 2014

Enforcing boundaries 2 weeks

Level 3 abuse Dec 2014 then Jan 2015

Enforcing boundaries one month

Level 4 abuse Feb-April 2015 a little level 6

Level 5 abuse last week of April ending May 2 with explosion of level 6 abuse

----------------------

Effects of DB, IC and setting boundaries

Initially scores were high in level 1, low in 2 plus

As level 1 ceased to create desired effect, H stopped using these tactics and moved up to level 2, as level 2 ceased to level 3, at the point of the above scoring we had level 4 behaviours and I hadn't learned how to handle those, so there is bewilderment expressed in the red comments on level 4.

I suspect it might be possible to develop this for other categories of abuse too. I only monitored verbal abuse.

IC observed that throughout this I refer to myself as V. Creating distance. H didn't like calling me by my name it was always "darlin". Depersonalising.

V


Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Bob723 #2578072 06/13/15 06:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Vanilla Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
Z love the warning flags post.

Think we might need a "before your next R" type post too.

I am thinking about Fin abuse and addiction. This is harder than it looks!

Thank you Bob, it's a collaboration with Z.

Can I ask fellow DBers if there are important would like on the thread?

V


Last edited by Vanilla; 06/13/15 06:45 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Zelda09 #2578074 06/13/15 06:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Vanilla Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
Originally Posted By: Zelda09
Feeling Hurt vs. Abuse

V, I liked the list of non-abusive behaviors you had.

I think these are also important distinctions, for example, someone needing time to themselves is not the same as someone withholding affection to punish. The intent is the root of it.

The actions that one takes within their own personal physical, emotional, spiritual, mental space may leave us feeling disappointed or hurt.

I imagine these spaces as 'bubbles' we draw around ourselves in those spheres. We can allow others in if we trust and we know they are safe to be within those happy spaces. People who aggressively and negatively push into those spheres are not safe people.

The key differentiation is when asking is someone hurting you, or are you simply feeling hurt, are their actions within their space? Or are their actions aggressively in yours?


I absolutely agree. Feel free to add more examples, I just did a blue sky on it, so I may have missed something important.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/13/15 06:50 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2578076 06/13/15 06:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Vanilla Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
Ad hoc old post from very early in my journey, when I was getting to grips with level 1 abuse. I hadn't understood at that point this was all about control.

When H goes into verbal diarrhoea mode. I spent my time analysing it.

Spew- incoherent rubbish designed to put you on edge.
response: STFU and walk away

Abusive spew: incoherent rubbish designed to put you on edge and insult
response: STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Rant- all of your "faults" that annoy them designed to control
response- STFU and then validate " I can see why you might think that"

Abusive rant- designed to control and insult
response- STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Sulk- make you feel small for wrong doing
response- STFU and ignore, act as if did not happen

Rail- designed to press your buttons keeps on about one issue, can even involve following you to the loo
response- STFU and leave to go GAL

Disappear- designed to make you worry and apprehensive
response- STFU detach and act as if all ok

Tantrum- no purpose whatsoever but feels good
response- STFU and look surprised

Blame- design to shift responsibility
response- validate and deflect if not responsible, if are responsible diffuse by accepting responsible then apologise then walk away

In all sitches detach and if necessary act confused. confused

Vanilla

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/13/15 06:58 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Vanilla #2578083 06/13/15 07:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
You're welcome, V. I second the idea about a "Before your next R" post, too.

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Bob723 #2578085 06/13/15 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,686
V & Z,

That sounds cool....V & Z.

Would you like a article I found online (won't say where, of course) that I feel really explains the difference between Love and Smothering?

I could send it to one of your threads, first, to see if you think it's appropriate.

Please let me know. I love to help!

Bob


Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS)
M:14 yrs
T:15 yrs
No children together--3 each from previous marriages
Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14
Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14
Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Bob723 #2578087 06/13/15 07:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
V
Vanilla Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
V
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8,855
Bob

Feel free to post, this is your thread too. For my part I am trying to add resources and tools. To make it more practical.

What you propose sounds great to me, we are not allowed links to external stuff.

V

Last edited by Vanilla; 06/13/15 07:56 PM.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
V 64, WAW


Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard