as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2)

[asitis]

So conversation this morning went well. She walked a few things back after hearing that I had listened, considered, and was taking what she said seriously. She offered a few conciliatory compliments and words of appreciation. She acknowledged some of her role in some of the things that yesterday she was painting me as the sole culprit.

We talked about how we would handle things differently now, some of the tricks we've learned to address some of our bad habits and triggers more effectively.

I had also raised her serving alcohol to the 20 year-old student yesterday in a very gentle, just concerned, but you're an adult and I trust you to think this through and your judgement. After my basically saying I was thinking about what you said first, she admitted that she had been thinking about what I said about the sitch with the student, and that I was right. She says that she sees him sometimes too much like a nephew (he is almost the same age and very similar in temperment and personality to her beloved niece, so I can see how she identifies him this way) sometimes, and forgets that he isn't. She let's her niece have a drink when she visits, but hadn't thought through that the niece doesn't get in a car afterwords.

Didn't plant a seed on the unhealthy relationship of spending so much time with these two and other students/ex-students, but maybe she'll mention our conversation to her therapist and she'll pick up on it. My therapist gets really animated about how bad a place those show her to be in. They are in the same office. After meeting with my therapist this morning I wouldn't be surprised if there were a raised eyebrow to my wife's therapist (we've signed releases that they can use their judgement on sharing important info that they use very discretely and in a way that is transparent to us).

I relayed what my wife's account of our past sitch was out of yesterday's conversation, and the therapist was really surprised by how much W has twisted the reality of the past (the therapist has been there through it all, and knows how much I agonized and struggled with some of my decisions that were made to support my W's career at the expense of mine, and she wanted to make sure that I knew that she saw how big a blow it must be to hear my W turn those into character flaws that exploited her (my W).

We talked about my S6's divorce discussion with me yesterday too. We both realized that he is coming to me to open up about the subject, not my wife. My wife has always been the soother they have learned to turn to. Not that I'm bad at that, but I didn't nurse them for 2+ years, and my wife has been exceptional up to recently. We both admitted that he probably senses that my W isn't really there for him right now, at least on this matter, and it says a lot about how good my relationship is with S, that he can come to me. She thought I handled the discussion well, reminded me of some rules of the road in dealing with kids on such topics.

She also thinks that my S3's recent resistance to sitting on the potty, to having accidents, and wanting back in diapers is his way of acting out his distress over the situation. We both agreed that there really isn't much to tell him, other than be reassuringly comforting, and that we shouldn't add stress over the accidents and resistance. He will work through it. I shared that with my W later, and she said she had been having the same thoughts, and agreed on the course of action my therapist suggested.

A good outcome overall, but I'm still just tired. You never realize until you get run through the wringer, just how tired dealing with powerful emotions can make you. Glad I have a long workout scheduled for this afternoon.

[asitis]

So, here is a question especially for the vets.

When do you challenge the revisionist history?

My IC was more agitated today than I've ever seen her about my W's re-writing history when I relayed our conversation from yesterday. She's sat there with me while I agonized before and after about several of the career choices that I made ultimately choosing to support my W's career and the good of my family over my own, and now I get blasted by W for exploiting her.

OK, wife felt unappreciated and I listened and validated W rather than trying to correct the record.

Also, W's missing out on all the things I've contributed financially to the family, as if I wasn't working (sometimes more hours for less money) during the years before our first child, or the amount of the small inheritance I got when my dad died that I put to the support of my family (paying off a car, down payment on our house, furnishings, kids college savings, paying down other debts, almost all of the baby accoutrement, and so on). Yes, I also bought some exercise equipment, stereo, camera, tools, and not all of those were necessities or wise decisions in retrospect. And, when we moved so that I could take a better paying job so she could have a year off for our first son, that inheritance paid all the costs of the move and covered the difference between our combined income before and my income during that off year.

When we decided together that we wanted one of us to stay home with our sons for two years each, it was a no brainer that it should be me given her higher income. The lost income was covered out of the remainder of my inheritance as well as gifts from my mother.

My IC knows a lot of this, and she was really irritated that I didn't fight back to set the record straight. I told her that my W needed to vent her anger, her hurt, and be heard and validated, and that at the moment while I had to bite my tongue that was more important than the lack of fairness in my W's account. I told IC, that it did have a result in getting my W to soften, and she clearly felt heard.

IC said that at some point soon, I should challenge the re-writing of that aspect of the history, especially since many of those choices cost me a lot emotionally and were done for my W's and my family's benefit.

So, when is it appropriate to challenge the re-writing of history? When is it fine to stand up and challenge? I've let her be heard and validated. I've shown her I take her feelings and her concerns seriously. Do you wait until they come back to the table? Do you just gently lay out some basic facts that are being missed or misconstrued by her? Do I just let it slide? Do I take continue to take care of some of the real problems in the financial area to show that I really take the concerns seriously (I do and they do need addressed, and I have been addressing them) before bringing this up?

I do have a long list of things that I paid for, and despite her greater earning power, it is at least as much of the joint property. And, unlike her, I have the records to piece even more of this together.

What are the vets' views?

[Bob723]

So, here is a question especially for the vets.

When do you challenge the revisionist history?

Hey asitis, that is a terrific question! I am waiting for a response, too.

Hang in there my friend.

Bob

[asitis]

As I think more about it and talk with others about it, I do think I need to challenge my W's view that I exploited her. I've acknowledged her feeling unappreciated and her anger (read back a few posts for full details). I've acknowledged that I participated in making mistakes, but I'm really tired of this gross re-writing of reality.

I was the one who agonized about making various career decisions that put the good of my family and wife ahead of myself, and now these are seen as my mistakes that exploited her and that I need to bear the financial responsibility for so that she can get on with her life.

She fails to see that I worked and contributed to the family up through our mutual decision for me to be a stay at home dad. I sunk the remainder of my inheritance into covering the shortages in income for the one and a half years that she took off to have our two sons. I sunk another big chunk into being able to have a down payment on our houses, bought a big chunk of our furniture, almost all of the baby furnishings, and helped pay down some of her debts, just like she helped pay down some of mine. For years before and after marriage, she used my car that I maintained and covered the insurance on. When we bought our first car together, I made the payments and used part of my inheritance to pay it off. I used another chunk to fund the lion's share of our kids' college education savings.

She railed against having to work and then come home to watch the kids so I could get some exercise in, but I watched one or both boys without a single break from 8 to 4 or 5 every day, while she had lunch and other breaks, as well as the career I was denying myself. I admit that I should have helped out more during those years, and that I did not express my appreciation or respect enough then. But when she would complain that I wasn't helping out enough with the house cleaning and child care, she would not acknowledge the value of all the things I did do (taking care of the computers, the cars, the house maintenance, the lawn, the snow, the taxes, the investments, the schedule coordination, the gift buying, making sure the kids got doctors appointments and went, etc., etc.).

As you can tell, I'm getting more frustrated as the days pass from our exploitation "discussion."

I know that part of this is my need to feel heard and treated fairly. But, I want to raise again to the vets, when is it appropriate to challenge the misrepresentation of R history?

My IC who has been there while I agonized over many of the career decisions that I ultimately made for the good of family and W, really disagreed with my letting her revisionist history stand without challenge, even though my defending myself in the past was part of an unhealthy dynamic where I didn't listen or respond to my W's wants and needs. OK, I'm better at that now, and I recognize that the point isn't to win an argument, but I'm feeling more like allowing this to stand is to allow her to continue to deny reality and responsibility and will not lead to her moving toward reconsideration.

So, opinions? Let it go? Respond? If the latter, how best to do it? My DB coach is unavailable when I am available to call until after the 27th, so she isn't a resources.

[Sotto]

I tend towards letting it go. Would it help get you closer to your goal of R? No - also, it sounds very much like a scorecard, which probably isn't helpful. I have been through many 'it's unfair' phases and I don't think trying to do anything about them with your W is a good idea.

Maybe do nothing until you next speak to your coach & discuss it then?

[asitis]

I lean that way too, although I've always been triggered by being judged unfairly (a childhood issue from my parents). Some of this is need to vent. But there is a legitimate question here about when one might stand up for oneself and calling the spouse on gross revisionist history and distorted view. Is there a time to do some of this before they decide they are going to come back to the table? Is there a way to do this that pushes toward the goals (you can read on mine earlier)?

Does allowing them to persist in their fantasy at a certain point become enabling? Does it allow them to avoid feeling the consequences of their choices?

My W is hurting. She needs to vent. There is a lot of anger, much or which is not really at me, but is being targeted at me. There is a lot of shifting blame for the pain of her decisions to want to leave the M and break the family up. I recognize that, and agree that listening and validating are the primary tools and lots of STFU smoothies during this phase. Still, I'm resistant to catch-all, blanket rules that lack subtlety and nuance. I recognize that for many people, this gets them in less trouble because they miss the nuance and subtlety. So maybe I'm opening up a can of worms best left unopened here where someone may come in and read a recommendation to a specific sitch and think oh, I'll do that when there are some significance differences between my sitch and theirs.

I do want to run this by my DB coach, and I am frustrated that I have to wait to do so. I also recognize that there is a lot of accumulated wisdom here, and I'd at least like to be thinking through this running up to my coaching session.

I suspect I'll have a few more rants and venting to go before I've worked this out of my system.

[CaliGuy]

I know in the middle of my crisis I had to wrestle with this. Asitis .... is it more important to be right or happy?

What I mean is .. her feelings are her feelings, feelings are neither right nor wrong, its how she feels ... granted she is bent on whatever it is that has consistently been eating at her, her perception of what happened, her perception of her history conflicts with your perception of your history. Something looking back I am sure you would have preferred you were both equipped with the proper communication skills to get it out in the open and deal with it. While you two are at odds, not 'in this together' does setting her and the record straight help you here?
One might argue that you can stand your ground and possibly gained some respect .. but reading your sitch I don't see it that way .. if anything your posts leave a bit of judgement of your W on the table ... just the vibe I get if I am being honest here.
That being said .. I am more a fan of truth darts here and there more than I would ever be on board with "Let me tell you exactly where you are wrong again ... time after time" ... This is just combative behavior in my opinion and counter productive .. let alone I do not see the DB principles behind it. Possibly if you enter into Piecing then you could share "Hey when you felt I took advantage of you, that hurt, I do see how you can feel that but I feel I sacrificed myself for the greater cause and here is why...."

Bottom line, does setting her straight fix any of this?

As 25 would ask Is it more important to be right or happy?

[WhyUs]

Ask yourself, "what are my goals?" Now, will confronting your wife help you reach your goals? Down the road you will have this opportunity and the time may be appropriate then. However, "you have to crawl before you walk." Your therapist is not in the DB program and will most certainly take a different approach. I, like you would love to hear from the vets on this as well.

[Vanilla]

Asitis

There could be value for you in creating a scorecard for the Fins. A spreadsheet where you outline for yourself the Fins.

Let me clear, this isn't a rub your nose in it thing, or a there is the actual history issue.

But just a here are the facts for yourself. Sometimes things surprise you. It wasn't until I did this exercise that I fully understood how much H was spending on trivia for himself and his compulsions whilst I paid the bills.

INTEL is vital in my opinion

V

[asitis]

Thanks all.

I actually have a lot of this information, as I have all the financial records and can see what was spent, and as she moved toward I want a D, I anticipated at some point we might have a conflict over this kind of thing. If it comes to dividing assets, of course we do this evenly. But I wanted to be forearmed with information in case we do get into conflict in D proceedings.

BTW Cali, I want to be both right and happy. Not really.

I agree that piecing is where to address hurt feelings. Also, as we work through a mediator on separating finances, some of this will inevitably come out, and there will be a neutral party in the room.

The one thing I'm still a bit uncomfortable with is the way in which the one-sided story gets fed to her family and therapist, who then stoke the flames even more, and so on. If she repeats this very revisionist history to her family, they push her to stand up for herself, support her vision of herself as the victim, and encourage her to get out. The therapist does the same. This is right out of ch. 1 in both books. The question is, are there times where times where a little dose of reality helps to check this stoking the flames that goes on between the WAS and the well-meaning therapist and family? It is one of the frustrations that you see this process going on, and rather than helping WAS deal with their feelings, they push the process along to M destruction.

Obviously there is the problem of WAS not buying into the challenge and digging in heels, which is another pushing the process along in a bad way. I still think that when both Ss are seeing IC, it would be really good for them to sit down with the other S's therapist for 4-5 sessions of reality check. Not going to happen, but a fantasy that would likely save a lot of Ms.

I've gotten a lot of my venting out, and can let things go for now. Thanks again all.