as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2)

[asitis]

I agree if it is an A there's nothing you can do about it. I'm not saying she is directly but something seems very off with their relationships. She should know better than to let them drink there much less the driving home and being underage. It could all just be a symptom of the MLC, she liking how they make her feel about herself rather than it being about them.

Again though, not sure how you address that. Hope a Vet can help soon.

On the relationship, regardless of any sexual issue, is very unhealthy and unprofessional. It is one thing to have some social encounters with students. We do have social functions as a department for instance. But there is a power dynamic that makes this young men (both of whom are smart and talented students and I'm sure are a joy to have in class) into a incestuous relationship where one gives extra attention students aren't used to in exchange for male adoration that she has been aware of is a problem for her (defining her worth via male approval). She is a great teacher and has always had lots of students she was very close to. Mostly these have been attracted to her as a role model. It was something I always highly respected in her.

She also had a female student who disclosed recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse who she helped and developed a friendship with, again as a mentor-mentee. As our relationship deteriorated, all of a sudden, it started to increasingly be male students who became part of her cadre of student devotees. Women tending to be less assertive, started having trouble getting through the ring of male students. What was admirable became unsavory and unseemly.

There has been a slow blurring of the line. Not sure when it crossed it, but it is across. I just don't know what to do or say that will help either me, her, or us. I'm sure she doesn't see it as even a blurry line given her current emotional state.

It has been hard to watch, and was part of what tipped me off to the MLC aspect. If her therapist knew she would walk her right through all the problems with these relationships and how they were neither giving her what she thought she was getting (adoration from someone below you in a power dynamic is not really respect and admiration as you would get from an equal) and how it was hiding a whole host of issues she needed to deal with. I'm the last person who can say anything. I've written lots of letters never to be mailed to vent on this.

Others are aware of some of this, although not the extent, or that she now socializes with few adults. I'm sure my W sees all of this is just light, happy fun with people who have some intellectual interests similar to the ones she and I shared, and are not all burdened with adult responsibilities and mutual obligations that are stifling her lost teenage spirit.

It has been very sad to see, and something when her parents hear all this about me being the problem, you just want drop in their laps to see what is really going on. Frustrating.

I've been resigned to let it play its course as part of the MLC and knowing that if I try to raise it as a problem it will get read as H = enemy trying to control and dominate me and drive her further away and into her immature, irresponsible behavior. The last couple weeks have shown that I can't drive her much further, that the problems have more impact on my family, and yet I still will get blasted and undermine the DBing work that has shown signs of at least halting the deterioration and perhaps some hints of subtle thawing.

Yuck.

[CaliGuy]

Asitis

Just read up on your sitch a bit as I can't sleep... Doing a 180 and posting from my phone so this will not be as winded as I'm typically famous for.

Reading up on your wife's actions and as I've been reading up on your posts... Not sure I see the hardcore MLC stuff I've seen in others, mleighs H is similar, more of a lost soul trying to sort things out, no A to speak of ... And has seemed to put himself into work

I wonder if your wife has gravitated to the goofy kids as an escape, she has no pressure to be the intellectual in that circle, if anything from my perspective it's a change of pace where she can dumb it down and relax a bit .... Might be something there for you to explore

I still feel you are all up in her head, (takes one to know one I rent a flat in my wife's left hemisphere) .... But this angle could be a possible 180, during an exchange you might try high laid back PMA along with a more casual approach... If it's true MLC you'll have plenty of time for these experiments

[asitis]

Agree that it is not full blown MLC, but both IC & DB coach see at least some sign of mild MLC (how I described it in my first post and in the MLC forum). I don't think most W go full MLC haywire. The students are definitely an escape, and DB coach has me learning from what she is getting and not having to deal with as part of my DBing.

One tip off that this isn't just WAW is that she did not plan an escape & that this came on literally overnight. One day things were OK. Not great, but OK. Then it she had an epiphany and everything about M & me became sh*t. She has said she has just wanted to run away from the beginning. She is also not pushing to get out or take responsibility for a new life. She wants to be irresponsible.

She is much less available to the kids and is enjoying her time away from them, even though she never was primary caregiver (if anything that was me). This is time for her to play and not be serious. Then there is the extremely juvenile fixation on teenage things.

Also, last summer when I really started to see MLC, she started by looking over pictures her dad had sent her from her childhood and teen years. She looked at those over and over and over, commenting repeatedly that she had lost that spirit she saw in the 11-13 year old self. Those were rebellious years for her (full of drug use and early sex - for the era, & albeit she was a serial monogamist). Then she started really socializing outside of class and office hours with her students, getting into new music her students listened to, got into emoji, and started having posts & comments on facebook that others asked me what was going on as she seemed to be acting really juvenile.

Around this time the story started to evolve from our dynamics and both our problems contributing to the M crisis, to everything being about me. We started to get the speaking in absolutes about this time: I didn't feel loved our entire M, you never showed me love or respect, you never were willing to show love or emotional vulnerability. At the time, I tried the pointing out all the obvious reasons why these were gross overstatements. Wish I knew I what I know then.

Also, the woman I know would never destroy her family and walk away from a marriage with someone she committed to, who was loyal, faithful, and was willing to work on things as hard and long as she knows I would. Obviously, I was premature in trying to show her this, but I do know the importance of the values she held, and this is just so opposite her. She also has become much more irresponsible in a lot of ways that are unusual, and there is the crazy irrational justification and "logic' being used since last summer.

Fortunately, I think she has some restraints on MLC and other bad behavior. She has been in IC since the start. I know her therapist will be warning her as much as it takes that getting involved with someone else would be really bad for her right now. It also gives me some hope that regardless of what this is, that there might be some hope that the usual long trip down the rabbit hole might not last as long given her being in therapy.

And, as everyone has said to me repeatedly, the good news is that you treat MLC and WAW basically the same way.

That said, this new irresponsible behavior is a recent escalation. I've suspected that some of this was going on for a bit over a month, but now I know she is taking risks that she should know better about. This is no longer just simple escapism. She is risking her career and not being responsible with the boys.

[CaliGuy]

Well .. reading all that she definitely has some traits, as much as I have read ... and I am almost embarrassed to admit how much ... I do believe that like most things MLC falls on a spectrum, some hit the nightmare stage, others not as intense. Regardless it impacts the M and the LBS and the family, some more devastating in areas of Finances, family, friendships, jobs and all the things that can come with Possible A's and OP's.

As you know ... one of the big things is pressure. She will look at you as an authority figure, and she is rebelling against that, appears hiding in the safety of less demanding groups whose main focus at the present might be what slang and jokes to post on FB. Just DB, keep PMA and go on about your buisness ... look at yourself a bit and how you can 180, GAL .... things you know you need to work on regardless of whats is going on with the M.

[asitis]

Yep. Just keep going on the plan.

One new wrinkle today that I was hoping to put off. I come up from sorting through some of the boxes of books with is part of my needs to happen list. S6 is saying that's sort of like us, being divorced.

What???? I calmly say what do you mean honey? He replies like us spending half the time with you and half with mom.

I ask, where did you hear about divorce? Then awareness expands and I hear S3 watching old episodes of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Episode 1 on parents getting a divorce. Ugh!

Now, I grew up in the same church as Fred Rogers, and he really was the way he seemed on TV, a genuinely wonderful, kind man, especially with children. I was weaned on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Even though they no longer air it on our local PBS station, we've always encouraged and given open access to it on the tablet.

So, I ask what else he thinks about Divorce. He adds that mom & you are like you are divorced. OK, how does that make you feel? Fine.

We go into the bedroom and lie down and talk a bit. I give him the your mom and I don't know yet what will happen, but she and I are having problems, and for now we've agreed to live apart and take care of you in turns while we work things through. I can't promise you how that will end up, but we take this very seriously, and you and your brother are our first priority. Yes, I wanted to say something else, but that wouldn't be helpful.

I also said that for the time being we will continue things the way they are, although your mom & I will need to switch which days you're with mom & which with me.

He asked if we would all be together. I said that I can promise him anything, but that is my hope and I will work toward that, as well as giving you and your brother the happiest life possible. I asked how he felt. He said "I'm not sure." I asked if you want us all back together? He said, "I don't want to get my hopes up, so I'm not going to hope for that."

D*mn that hurts. Sounds so reasonable, but it is a 6 year-old.

We talked some more about him coming to me whenever he has feelings about this or anything else that he is wrestling with, or has any questions. Know that your mom & I are here for you, we love you, and that will never change, ever.

Played a bit, but nothing else came out. Now he's reading his animal guidebooks (a soothing interest - he has a touch of asperger's syndrome most likely).

Not sure what to tell the W, as I really don't want to get into R talk right now. I know I need to, but I'm really not wanting to. We are meeting to day to discuss some business and shared household projects.

I need a break from all this. Saturday can't come fast enough (I leave for 2 weeks at the zen monastery near here).

[Wonka]

Asitis,

You do not NEED to tell W about this convo as it was between you and your sons. The sky isn't falling down. Likewise, you don't need to know every convo that the boys have with your W...right?

[asitis]

You're right. We have not had the talk with them and wanted to consult with a therapist over how to have it when the time comes.

[asitis]

So, got back from my conference w/ wife. Not as smooth as last month. She wants to move toward financial separation as fast as possible, and doesn't want to support me even though I've been a stay at home husband for 4 of the last 6 years, work for a lot less so that we could work in the same area rather than be a distant academic couple.

She felt like I made choices that she didn't have a say in, even though she never raised objection to what we were doing. We were both counting on an arrangement to work out that created a shared position for us, that the department went back on because they didn't like the new rules it would be implemented on. Now, it is my fault that I made choices and she supported them based on those expectations.

There was a lot of anger. I worked, got tenure, did most of the cooking and cleaning. Of course, I cleaned the dishes, did do some cleaning, and took care of all the big household maintenance, including the yard. And I worked long hours, albeit for much less pay.

Only challenged her view once, and otherwise listened and validated. She clearly is very, very angry still. She kept saying that she felt exploited. An overstatement, but that's how she feels at least now. She doesn't think that she should bear the brunt of our joint financial situation or that her commitments to support me through the masters program that she promised (she now says that she didn't remember the promise the way I said even though I asked repeatedly to make sure). I told her that everyone said get it in writing, and I kept saying, no I know my wife and I can trust her word. I've learned that mistake.

We started to come down and talk more reasonably after that, acknowledged that we both agree that mistakes were made and that we need to focus on moving forward. She brought up using a mediator to start the process on the finances. I agreed that this seemed best to avoid fighting over the past and keeping things as positive as we could. I told her that the person whose name I was given by a colleague in counseling no longer does divorce mediation, but she recommended someone highly, and I would get her the name.

That resolved, we agreed that our past months homework that I suggested helped to identify areas we need to be trimming.

We still are in a disagreement about the basic concept that in a marriage, unless otherwise agreed, the higher income earner doesn't just get to have a greater discretionary spending fund. She focuses on how much she pays, and when I point out that as a proportion of her income she pays less than I do as a proportion of my income, that during the years when I was a stay-at-home dad, when there were family expenses, she would often not reimburse me for basic necessities. Any, mistakes were made.

We both got to vent a bit, which was probably good. I plan when I see her tomorrow to tell her I thought about what she said on the feeling exploited, and really do understand why she feels this way.

We moved on to other nagging household tasks. Mainly taking care of accumulated positions that clutter certain areas. We talked about goals for last month. I got all my goals done. She really didn't contribute at all. I did say that she had identified her top two priorities for July, and they both really required her participation, as we had mutual decisions to make on the next steps. She agreed to help more. No, thanks for all your hard work and doing what you said. Too much to expect.

We talked a bit about how we are both different people and have obviously would have handled things differently as the people we are. Did fall into a bit of R talk acknowledging I hear her loud and clear on her wanting a D, but I did bring up that there is still a lot of anger for the past and her acknowledgement that the people we have become would not do that to each other. I said I'm not holding out hope, but I also wouldn't close the door because it is what I believe in.

Probably the last was unnecessary.

We hugged and said it was good to clear the air on some things and speak our minds, it is good to be actually addressing some of these nagging issues for both of us. I thanked her for being able to express her feelings and wants more openly than she has in the past. She said she really appreciates that we are handling this and working together so well. She still wants a divorce [thanks honey, I missed that part the other times you made it clear], but she knows that we are really doing so much better at making the S & moving toward D work well.

Almost, said, "yeah, we make a good team don't we. What a good marriage we could have if you ever decide to move beyond anger and blame and invest yourself." Big STFU smoothie.

[asitis]

Boy, feeling her lack of respect, feeling the anger, and swallowing defending myself is very stressful and tiring. I know she is hurting. I know a lot of what she was telling me was that she didn't feel respected or appreciated. I am trying to acknowledge that, but it is also hard for me to not want to respond in the name of fairness.

I know that the respect can return once the anger is vented, she works through her pain, and really starts seeing who I am now. It may never happen fully. It may not be enough, but even though I remind myself that those feelings will likely change (at least they will mellow with time, but I think more), it is still very painful to face.

Really looking at the listening and validating the feelings, I want to more fully acknowledge the hurt that was in those criticism, acknowledge that I did appreciate and value her, and I'm sorry that I wasn't capable of expressing that in a way she could see.

So, here is the gist of what I'm thinking of saying:

I want to let you know that I've been thinking a lot about what you said yesterday and the hurt and frustration you expressed. I do see why you feel that way. I really do, and I want you to know that I am taking it very seriously. We obviously both made mistakes, as we both admitted, and I am taking full responsibility to address those things that are part of that mess. But more than that, I heard you basically saying that you didn't feel appreciated and respected during those times. I feel horrible that you felt that way. I did appreciate and respect you, and I am sorry that I was not capable of letting you know this in a way you could feel it.

I know that I said some things that were defensive yesterday, and I still feel like there are some issues that I'm not getting properly acknowledged for. But if there is one thing I've learned from our troubles, it is that the quality of the relationship going forward is more important than feeling I was fairly heard, get my point heard, or "win" the argument. That isn't what is important to me, and I wish I saw that then the way I do now.

So, you want mediation on the finances, and I agreed and will do the hard work that entails. But I wanted to let you know that I hear your main concern that you want me to take steps to move toward financial separation. I want this too. What suggestions do you have that we can consider getting started on while we get the mediation process started?

end


I'm not planning to write it out, as I want eye contact. I'll be winging it. We will have some time tomorrow morning where we have to deal with some arrangements regarding our impending trips. The above is in fitting with the approach my DB coach has laid out for me. Yes, it goes beyond listening and validating. It is letting her know that I really heard by bringing it up again and let her know that I not only heard, but am giving it serious consideration. She also wants me to show my respect and appreciation by asking her opinion on what we should do rather than just offer suggestions.

That helped to write out. I know it doesn't fit with the classic DB approach as practiced here, but I'm trusting my coach on this.

D*mn, this stuff is tiring.

On a funny note to finish, S3 said "maybe mom wants to stay in the apartment and not see you because you eat too much and get sick." I just had to laugh. He always says the thing that brightens my mood in the toughest of times. I have know idea how my W & I produced such a natural empath. I've had to work to earn almost every bit of my empathy. Older S, later explained there was a character in a video that people were unhappy with because he ate too much and got sick.

I love my kids. I'll take tiring.

[asitis]

Tonight is my last night with the kids for a couple weeks. They are sound asleep. One of our special father son rituals is that after I'm done reading each of them a bedtime story, they each get to request one story from me. I tell them the story and then tell them I love them and wish them a good night sleep.

So tonight, I came out and recorded two sets of stories on S6's iPad mini that they can have played for them when they are missing me. I'll show them to them tomorrow so they know they can request them, and then I'll have to show my W how to play them for them in case they forget. I suspect S3 will remember, as he is our gadget boy who figured out how to unlock my tablet at 6 months.

This will be the longest I've been away from them ever. I know that many parents routinely have to spend time away from their young kids for work or obligations to care for a parent, but it is still hard, especially when it is because W wants to go on family vacation without you included. I know that I took the kids on vacation without her, but not because that was my preference. I'll miss my little guys.