as_it_is - my adventure continues (part 2)

[ralphy]

Just stopping in to say hello As.

Not much to add or help other than to let you know I'm right here with you.

But do keep in mind the chapter about speaking to family, friends, etc. Know that they will tell her everything she wants to hear and support her unconditionally. Nothing you can do about it, nor should you focus on that right now.

[WhyUs]

Asitis,

I know exactly what you mean by famy and the therapist stoking the flames. They only hear her side of the story. Then they tell her to stick up for herself. Your right, its straight out of chapter one. I wish there was a way for them to see the reality of things. However, there does not seem to be a way to get through to them without causing more problems. It is very frustrating.

The only positive out of this is that it confirms her perspective, her reality. We can use this to gain a better understanding of how she feels and pehaps make changes within ourselves that might alter her perspective on the situation. We cant say it to her because she will not listen. We have to show it with our actions. When she sees the changes and begins to question her perspective she will inevitably ask the perspective of her family. Then, ideally, they will also question the situation. This of course will take time.

[CaliGuy]

Asitis

Don't get me started on therapists .... W was going through her MLC, at the time, I assumed Bi-polar which is not a far cry off and given SIL and MIL both diagnosed was not like I grasped for straws there. Long story short W went into IC about 3 years ago, 6 months in IC started planting seeds 'do what makes you happy regardless of hurt feelings' Enter OM on a EA level
Last year about this time her IC suggested I come into a session, I was under the impression it was a MC type event, little did I know W and IC both knew about OM and it was an exit A .... 20 minutes in after a fight W created ... IC stated "I think your two should separate"

Ironically I was looking for LFMT in the area about 6 months ago and her name popped up, I did at least write a review letting people know she was not pro marriage.

[asitis]

Asitis,

I know exactly what you mean by famy and the therapist stoking the flames. They only hear her side of the story. Then they tell her to stick up for herself. Your right, its straight out of chapter one. I wish there was a way for them to see the reality of things. However, there does not seem to be a way to get through to them without causing more problems. It is very frustrating.

The only positive out of this is that it confirms her perspective, her reality. We can use this to gain a better understanding of how she feels and pehaps make changes within ourselves that might alter her perspective on the situation. We cant say it to her because she will not listen. We have to show it with our actions. When she sees the changes and begins to question her perspective she will inevitably ask the perspective of her family. Then, ideally, they will also question the situation. This of course will take time.

Thanks. Yes, there is always a nugget of truth in the distortion if you look for it, and it definitely give some clues as to tweaking your plan. And, not reacting the way they've come to expect is one of the big 180s that you need to show them time and time again. And, it is hard sometimes to recognize all of this in the midst of the frustration. And, it is important to recognize how far I've come that I was able to (1) not respond, but listen and validate, etc.; (2) see the nuggets and consider what they were telling me despite my being hit with the resentment, hurt, and frustration; and (3) able to just be with those turbulent emotions for a while, identify all of them, recognize how much were due to my propensities to be triggered by certain patterns in my life, and having built up safe places and people to healthily vent.

The funny thing is how much power my W still gives me in all this. Both by making so much of these mutual problems my fault, but also that I know that she is expecting me to be the one to move this project forward. She is expecting me to come up with most of the ideas on how to fix things. This has been one of the patterns: make me the capable, reliable father she wished she had, and then I can either fix things or be to blame for letting her down by not living up to that desire in her. It has been one of my greatest challenges in this. How to get her to take more of the responsibility when we are both in the habit of falling into this pattern, but also recognizing the reality that this is a weaning process and that I can't just say you want me to be X but that isn't healthy and you need to deal with it, any more than I can be the one to show her the distortions in her thinking on a whole range of things.

This is definitely not the path for the timid.

[asitis]

Asitis

Don't get me started on therapists .... W was going through her MLC, at the time, I assumed Bi-polar which is not a far cry off and given SIL and MIL both diagnosed was not like I grasped for straws there. Long story short W went into IC about 3 years ago, 6 months in IC started planting seeds 'do what makes you happy regardless of hurt feelings' Enter OM on a EA level
Last year about this time her IC suggested I come into a session, I was under the impression it was a MC type event, little did I know W and IC both knew about OM and it was an exit A .... 20 minutes in after a fight W created ... IC stated "I think your two should separate"

Ironically I was looking for LFMT in the area about 6 months ago and her name popped up, I did at least write a review letting people know she was not pro marriage.

Wow, that is definitely not a pro. I have a better feel for my W's IC, but I know how hard it is to (1) see what is really going on when you are dealing with counseling someone on an R and both parties are not in the room presenting the full picture and dynamics; and (2) that even when they are trying, there is no guarantee that the patient is hearing them when they plant seeds or challenge them. My IC, who recommended her IC for her, does give me some confidence that her IC would not be doing X or Y when I raise a concern and she can speak to it.

One of the biggest problems I see, is that there are so many issues for my W to work on, as she hasn't been going to a therapist for years like I have, that it just takes time to unravel all the strands.

Glad you were able to warn others about your W's IC. Her joint meeting with you was totally unprofessional. It is one thing for a MC to after meeting with the couple a few times suggest a few individual sessions with each to allow a safe space for each to open up without the inhibition of the spouse, it is another for someone who has been a long-time IC to pretend to become the couple's MC. You always refer out if that is your role. Always. Now, I'm sure this therapist didn't see her role here as an MC, but that is a sign that she wasn't very good, because there is no way that this isn't how you wouldn't see it that way, and it is totally unfair and unprofessional to make judgements on an M based on one session with one spouse and years with the other. Glad you look to be surviving despite all that "professional help."

[asitis]

Another interesting wrinkle that brings one of those nagging issues to the fore.

A new woman in a group I'm involved in who shares a lot of interest, including some of the intellectual interests that are harder to find in acquaintances. She's got the equivalent of an MA/MS in psychology (she's Danish, so I'm not sure what they call it exactly over there, as their higher ed is very different from ours in some ways that I'm still working out), and I'm going back to get my MA in mental health counseling. As a political scientist with a focus on political economics, I've always been interested in Denmark and the other Scandinavian countries. So, lots to talk about before and after group.

Don't know her full sitch, but single mom of two young kids, and as I am open about my sitch in this group (my weekly Buddhist meditation and discussion group) she knows that I'm S, wife has asked for D, but that I'm standing for my M. She clearly is both being respectful of that, but is also clearly drawn to me and trying to connect (just FB messaged me asking for reading advice - I'm one of the most knowledgeable in our group and probably the most serious practitioner as well as tending to naturally end up being a leader of anything I get involved in). Would enjoy talking more, esp. outside the group setting, and potentially becoming friends.

I've always tended to be more comfortable being friends with women generally, as most guy friends are too shallow (no offense guys, as it is part that we've been socialized in ways that makes it hard for many of us to open up and go deep with other guys, and it is as much me as the guy friends) in their friendships. Add to that, not being a bit unusual in my interests (intellectual topics, philosophy, Buddhism, human psychology, international politics, and then things like native plant gardening, nature and ecological systems -- yes, I'm definitely a bit of a nerd), so that it is not always easy to find friends with whom I can really talk about things I deeply enjoy and am passionate about.

But in the current sitch, stepping into friendships that have any depth with a woman is both awkward and fraught with peril. Awkward in part because I don't want to give the wrong impression to other woman, esp. if they have interest in potentially something more that will be nagging at them. Fraught with peril both because I recognize my vulnerability to pursuit and getting wants met that I've had to stifle for a while, and because I don't want to hurt the other woman. I know that no matter who frank I am, just getting involved in a stimulating friendship can seem like leading on. There is, after all, a passion and intensity even in friendships. There is also the mutual support and care when two people who have some relationship similarities (failed/failing Rs and families, young kids, etc.) inevitably share, listen, and empathize/sympathize. It can be heady stuff.

My tendency during this time has been to avoid pursuing a friendship like this, but it makes me sad and a bit frustrated to miss such opportunities that I might otherwise develop and enjoy if my M were healed and strong or it had truly failed and was time to move on.

I know that it is good to realize that you can be attractive to people that you might be attracted to in return - the knowledge that all is not lost which you might intellectually know but actual real-life confirmation helps to feel that. There is also the very weird realization in situations like this that I could end up in a relationship with someone substantially younger than my W, who is already 7 years my junior. This young woman is very clearly still well below her 40s. Now, most people guess I'm in my mid-30s (I know hate me, but my family doesn't get grey or wrinkles until very late - I do still get acne, if that is a consolation), so it isn't surprising to draw the occasional interest. I know that for many men, attracting much younger women is an ego boost, and I won't deny some of this, but it just is something I didn't imagine and am not all that comfortable with. I have a natural suspicion of such relationships: daddy issues and what not. I know that you get used to it eventually (as I did w/ my W, who was the biggest age gap I ever dated), but it still seems a bit weird to me.

Ah well. Part of the fun of standing up for your M. Better to have new friends of interest who you keep a bit of distance from, and I'll enjoy where my life is.

[asitis]

Tomorrow I head off for two weeks of "retreat" at the Buddhist monastery I go to regularly. I put the retreat in quotes, as it is not a peaceful, relaxing vacation. We sit for many hours each day, and spend most of the rest of the time in some form of practice.

Sunday is my 12th anniversary. I'm glad I'll be out of town for it.

I won't be on the forum for these two weeks, as I'll be offline that whole time. Don't worry that I've fallen of the face of the Earth because I've stopped posting here or other people's threads.

Until then, good luck to all of you & know that those of you who I've been following or have been stopping by will be in my thoughts and prayers. May these tough times help you grow and bring you and your families happiness!

[PigPen]

Cheers As, drop into your meditations. All the way in. I would imagine this will be a 12 rounder with your mind, but once you break it, peace will find you.

Can't wait to hear what comes out of your depths after two weeks.

Be well my friend, happy sitting.

PP

[Vanilla]

Waiting to hear about the retreat

V

[PigPen]

Miss you on here As, hope you're communicating with the divine every time your eyes close and you drop in.

Thinking of you.

PP