This was drafted as a result of several questions on threads, why am I being isolated etc and my attempt to understand Mustardseeds Post above on organisational threats. The truth is when protecting ourselves, I resist the words defending or retaliating, forewarned is forearmed. Keep cards close to chest, good L and breeze block, every day breeze block, boring old "don't bother I am so uninterested and uninteresting" tactic. Then ride it out, the cheater or abusers shows their true colours anyway.
Triangulation-The use of a third party in abuse or cheating
A dynamic of communication and behaviours involving more than two people that are unhealthy and unwholesome. The trademarks of triangulation are covert operation, deceit and abuse together with complicity. This is a triangle of three types of parties.
In an in an A sitch this can be WS the OP and the cheated S. In other sitches it's the Abuser an Organisation or Person and the Target. In some both. Note this isn't about an A and the deceit involved although it is about behaviours around it.
The simple definition of triangulation is: one individual attacking, discrediting (smearing) or/ and abusing another person with the use of third-party people or institutions. This has much wider implications.
There are three traditional parts of the ‘triangle’. These are
1) The Abuser, cheater, WW or WH
2) The Rescuer, cheat partner (as long as they are aware they are in an A), scuzzy
3) The Target or cheated spouse
We can recognise how we may have contributed to fuelling the triangulation by identifying our role in it. ---------------------------------
The Process
The triangulation process begins when the abuse starts or the affair starts, the target or cheated spouse reacts, and is then classified as ‘the enemy’.
The abuser or cheater behaves in an attacking manner in order to survive, to get rid of the perceived threat (which may not even be real) and to regain control, to get the upper hand and disable the target or cheated spouse.
Naturally people who model humanity as love, dedication and loyalty are devastated when they are ‘adored’ then ‘abhorred’ alternately ‘How can you treat me like this?’
The abuser or cheater feels powerless and the loss of control or their A with severe panic, pain and rage. The Target or Cheated Partner is accused of things that they don’t have the capacity to think about let alone execute. This reaction is because there is no awareness of the fact that the reaction of criticism or anger was triggered as a result of being abused or cheated on. The abuser or cheat is like a terrified child in an aggressive adult’s body doing anything to stop the imagined assaults they believe are inevitable, and that they are powerless to defend alone.
Hence the urgent and frenetic need to recruit allies and rally people or systems as reinforcements to completely discredit and cripple before there is a response.
Triangulation is a tactic That has generally been mastered at a very early age. Virtually every abuser and cheat does it, and it is one of the absolute trademarks of abuse.
------------------------------------------------------------- The Abuser or Cheater role in Triangulation
This role comes naturally and the irony is the abuser or cheater believes completely that they are a victim (not a target, victim mentality). Regardless of however mentally high functioning they appear to be, they have the emotional intelligence of an angry, irrational young child or adolescent. There is such disintegration they behave very badly without responsibility or accountability. Any faults are projected onto the person targeted thus the abuser believes the target is the pathological person acting out atrocious attacks and tries to destroy the parts that are despised – the parts that have been projected on to the target.
This is the irony of abuse or infidelity – the abuser or cheater acts out (behaves) and abuses and then blames the target for these acts and seeks to punish and totally oblivious that the rage is self-hatred. The target just happen to be the container for the damaged parts.
The abuser or cheat is extremely capable of pathological lying, and often fully believes their own lies (setting this in the subconscious) or will have righteous justifications for telling the lies. They are also brilliant actors and have perfected the craft of acting out emotions in order to manipulate.
Using an Organisation or Person to 'Rescue' the Abuser or WS
The deception required to recruit an organisation (police, courts, child services etc) or another person comes easily to the Abuser or Cheater as the end justifies the means. Organisations often have no option other than to get involved with the lies, because it’s their job to investigate claims of child-abuse, criminal activity, fraud, tax-evasion, violence etc. Although there can be consequences occasionally to this tactic.
Triangulation may include an organisation at the top left of the triangle, or a fictitious character, or a fabricated statement using third-party ally statements (real or fabricated).
An example is “I spoke to X who agrees that you xxxxxxxx”
Or of course, this could be a family member or friend playing a rescuing role convinced that the abuser or cheat is the good person, they are also being used and a target of abuse. Others watch along bewildered without intervening and in due course may come forward disclosing to warn the targets or cheated spouses. This can be a spell breaker.
The same does not apply to the OP who is addicted and has issues of their own. Healthy people do not get involved, or seek the truth for themselves, so by the very definition individuals who involve themselves are unhealthy psychologically. People who are not hooked may believe the lies, offer sympathy and even suggest solutions or support but are unlikely to take on attacking the target or cheated spouse as their own personal crusade.
The abuser has no qualms about dragging others in, lying to them, getting them involved in chaos, or putting them at risk – even criminally, if they chose to engage at that level. Others are objects and may be discarded when their usefulness is complete, and then may be re-recruited by the narcissist when the next triangulation opportunity presents. The abuser may go as far as to incite others (sometimes called flying monkeys) to do the dirty work, exit the scene and let them take the fall.
The other may be trying to win approval due to struggling to generate their own self-worth and self-value buys the narcissist’s lies about ‘how special they are to the narcissist’.
They may have been lied to feign promises leading to some ‘hope’ for the future that this person believes is necessary from the narcissist – such as ‘love’, ‘approval’ ‘repayment’ of ‘making amends’ or ‘security’. They may know this is a problem but will still act anyway.
Business associates (suffering from lack of self-capability) who believes there is a ticket to security and wealth may delude themselves and combine forces against the target or abused spouse.
Friends who suffer from lack of self-worth and self-esteem, who get the payoff of emotional approval and favours, or who are hooked and manipulated with guilt, may also be easy recruitment targets. This is especially likely if this person acts out ‘righteousness’ as a result of projecting their own disowned inner wounding,
Affair Partners and New Partners and Cheated Spouses
Affair partners are different to new partners as they are part of the cheating dynamic and will likely be "me and you against the world" anyway, they will like as not act as one with the cheater, speak with one voice.
New partners are not involved in cheating they arrive after the primary R is over and are often easily triangulated against ex partners. The new partner wants to believe the fairy tale, and the façade the abuser presents as ‘the dream partner who is the answer to all previous loneliness / emotional pain / security. ‘ They are at the start of the sweet cycle and do not want to investigate the ex-partner(s) evidence, does not want to question ‘the dream’ and easily believe the intoxication of ‘perfect love’ in the love-bombing period.The new partner would rather ignore the truth and believe the lies.
Down the track, ex-partners, who were once at the bottom of the triangle being smeared and discredited to third parties, can be re-recruited to rescuer status when things turn sour with the new partner. This is called hoovering, when this is the A partner the cheated spouse often relishes this turn of events to inflict punishment and revenge on the OP.
The ex-partner or cheated spouse, if still hooked and not recovered from the previous cheating or abuse, is highly susceptible to be used for sex, attention, sympathy, becoming an object of revenge, energy, resources and anything else the abuser or cheater feels entitled to at. The ex-partner may also take a stand against the new partner or OP in a futile attempt to convince the abuser that they are worth loving and committing to again.
The abuser or cheater can be totally charming, appear remorseful and even adoring and ex-partner naturally wants to believe the lies. This person despite previous abuse doesn’t want to imagine the narcissist is very capable of demoting him or her again, and is likely to be playing out multiple games of smearing and demonising different sexual partners to each other (behind their backs) and creating them as the rescuer (in person) simultaneously.
The End Result
This, of course, sets the OP and the S, the Rescuer and the Target up against each other.
The different parties completely distrust each other and don’t believe each other’s versions. They also choose to believe the abuser or cheat is so repulsed that there is no way the cheater would go near the OP let alone heaven forbid have sex with them. Despite the numerous warning bells, red flags, inconsistencies and gnawing horrible feeling that something unsavoury is taking place. Once an OP is repelled from the triangle a vacancy is created and lo, another OP. If the cheated spouse withdraws their cake and will not resume another OP appears in addition to the first. There is nothing to be done but ride it out, the truth emerges in time. In the meanwhile there can be substantial damage. Protect, protect, protect!
------------------------------------
The blind spots without ourselves cause us to miss the blind spots in others.
This post is cribbed from several sources and the last portion from an article by Mel Evans. It has been adapted for use with abuse as opposed to narcissism.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
This is very interesting stuff. Thank you for posting it. I wish I could send this to everyone involved in the Triangle. Guessing that would be a bad idea.
Me: 30's W: 30's M: 12yrs EA: Started 3/2015 MC Started: 4/2015 She moved out and served 6/2015 PA: Confirmed 10/5/2015 2 young kids
"If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything."
That was an extremely insightful post V. Something I will bookmark and refer to when and if I ever feel I am getting roped back in. Thanks for posting.
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
Some people who are fun, good at things, and appear in public to be compassionate and generous often make desirable friends and life partners. They can be very enjoyable to hang out with, even if they seem a bit self-preoccupied, as if they are always taking mental selfies. Then can come the rub. Are they also good partners when it comes to talking through differences of opinion in work and/or home situations? Or is there something self centred about how they communicate in a relationship that's provocative?
Especially when you hit bumps on the road of your life, ever tried to be friends or a love partner with someone who only listens to him or herself? Who changes the topic, gets defensive or gets mad at you when you try to talk about difficulties you've been experiencing? The desire to sustain a friendship, never mind a love relationship, with these folks can quickly fade.
How about you? Are you someone others like and yet often also find demoralising to be with when serious issues come up? Do people tell you that you seem to take up all the space in the room because conversations with you so frequently take an "it' all about me" turn? When others express feelings and concerns, is your reaction "Well what about me?" Do you monologue or pontificate instead of sharing equal air time?
Healthy or malfunctioning?
To clarity about what healthy versus malfunctioning look like then there are certain keys. Normal interactions involve introjections, the ability to see the second position.
Someone who disparages what you say instead of finding what makes sense about it, or who ignores what you say altogether, is likely to be malfunctioning.
Not listening leads to showing minimal responsiveness to others' concerns. The bottom line is that healthy people in healthy relationships are able to sustain both responsively to their own concerns and responsively to others'. They are able to be self-centred in the best sense (taking care of themselves), and also altruistic (taking heed of others' desires).
Two way communication
The ability to hear both oneself and others is referred to as bilateral (2-sided) listening. Narcissistic and abusive listening is one-way, listening to myself only, listening to only my own views.
When differences arise, folks who do bilateral listening are pros at taking into consideration both their concerns and others. This bilateral listening ability enables them to routinely seek and create win-win solutions, which in turn sustains their relationships with on-going goodwill.
For instance, if you are tired, you would listen to that feeling and head for bed. At the same time if you have just received a call from a friend who has a problem and urgently wants to talk with you, you might suggest that the two of you talk for a few minutes now, and aim to talk more at length in the morning. That could be a win-win solution. By contrast, if there is a malfunction then the response may be an immediate”No. I’m too tired,” to the friend’s request. Or with a more gentle, "Yes I hear that you want to talk but I'm just too tired. In the latter case the friend's request are minimised, dismissed and the data about the friend's need discarded. This is invalidating the other, just a different way.
Similarly, if your friend is self centred, the fact that you are tired would slide by. Talking together now would be the only option. 'It's all about me' would prevail, with anger at refraining from complying.
Generosity
Abusive folks can be generous and are actually are often very generous. They may, for instance, give away large sums of money to charity. Generous giving makes the giver feel good and also feels appropriate, like "the right" thing to do. They may well therefore pride themselves on their compassion and altruism.
At the same time, in a situation in which someone wants something, and that desire is in conflict with what someone else wants, that's when the selfish side takes over.
Often too, the tendency toward compassionate generosity gets directed toward strangers. The people closest receive far less compassion and far more dismissive listening. This is to impress others and make the self appear more than. It's grandiosity at its worst. ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- immediacy Quiz (just for interest)
This quiz is not any kind of clinical or therapeutic diagnosis tool. Just an insight tool.
Expanding on this core difficulty in listening, here are six signs for sizing up the problem. Score each dimension from 0 to 10. Zero is not at all. Ten is all the time.
First assess yourself then someone who is difficult to deal with.
The goal is to view the patterns clearly to make changes for the better.
1. Unilateral listening.
What the person wants and what they have to say are all that matters when talking together with another. When making decisions about what is wanted, the others concerns, feelings..these are mere whispers, inconveniences and irrelevancies. So when issues are discussed only the speakers opinions are right. That of others is wrong or else of minimal importance. If the other expects to have input, they are undermining the speaker.
Disrupted listening often dismisses, negates, ignores, minimises, denigrates or otherwise renders irrelevant other people’s concerns and comments.
One sign of abusive non-listening is the tone of contempt instead of interest.
Another sign is a frequent responses that begin with "But....", which is a backspace-delete key that negates whatever came before, in this case, what someone else has said.
Yet another: because 'I'm right and you're wrong,' I tend to listen for what I don't like in what you say so that I can respond by telling you how what you have said is wrong.
Self: Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Other: Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2. It’s all about me.
The speaker know more, knows better, they think they are more interesting, When talking with others, it’s mostly about the speaker. In conversations, they take up most of the air time. Almost all of the casual chatter is about what they have done, what they are thinking about.
If the other begins to talk about themselves, the original speaker links back to something in life so that the focus of the discussion again turns back to them. Maybe that's why people say Such speakers suck up all the air in a room.
When they want something then the speakers need to have it. Never mind how others feel about it; "it’s all about me". Such people are big and important and others are merely also here, mostly to do things, like a third arm. "Enough about me lets talk about you, what do you think about me?"
Self: Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Other: Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
3. The rules don’t apply.
Such people can have affairs, cut into a line where others are waiting, cheat on taxes, and ignore rules that get in the way of my doing what they want. Rules are for other people to follow.
They suffer from what "Tall Man Syndrome". They experience themselves as above others, so the rules don't apply to them.
Self Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Other Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
4. Your concerns are really criticisms and no thank you
If forced to listen and take your concerns seriously then they will get angry. Criticism hurts. They can criticise others, and often do, but if criticised then others are hurting my feelings so They will hurt you back. And if the other says you are at all unhappy, that's a way of indirectly criticising. Since "it's all about me" the others feelings must be about what the speaking has been doing.
There is paradoxically a manifestation of both an inflated idea of their own importance and quickness to feel deflated by negative feedback.
In addition, because they think everything is about them, they hear others’ attempts to talk about personal feelings as veiled criticisms of themselves.
The clinical term for taking others' concerns as personal criticism is personalising. E.g., If she says "I'm feeling lonely," they will hear the self-statement as an accusation, "You don't spend enough time with me."
Self Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Other Score: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
5. When things go wrong between us, it’s always your fault.
They can’t be expected to apologise or to admit blame. They are above others and above reproach. "You shouldn’t have… ." and "Don’t threaten me with expecting me to say how I’ve contributed to a problem or I’ll get mad at you."
Unwillingness to take responsibility for mistakes goes hand-in-hand with quickness to blame. This trait may come from confusing the part with the whole. "If I've done one thing that's not right, then I must be all bad." That's also all-or-nothing thinking.
Whatever the source of the sensitivity to criticism and difficulty admitting mistakes, the upshot is a tendency to blame others when anything has gone wrong. Blaming and fault-finding in others feel safer to narcissists than looking to discover, learn and grow from their own part in difficulties.
Whilst they are quick to blame, they may be slow to appreciate. Appreciation and gratitude require listening.
"You made me angry". "You didn’t listen to me". "You criticised me". "You’re trying to control me". "Your view is wrong". "you need to apologise, not me." Immediately following that is "I’m not responsible for my anger. If I’m angry it's because I'm frustrated by what you are doing. My anger is your fault. I'm only angry because you ... "
Some people show major charm and social agility. At the same time, these seemingly super-confident folks also can be quick to anger. When they do become inflamed, they then immediately blame their anger on others.
What will trigger anger?
Critical comments will do it, special, also can be remarkably thin-skinned. Any feedback that punctures their belief in total specialness can feel quite threatening. The immediate response will be to issue blame.
Telling anyone what to do, or sounding even somewhat like you are telling them what to do, also is likely to provoke irritation. Pretty much everyone prefers autonomy (unless the two people have an agreed-upon boss-worker or similar relationship). Abusers however tend to be hyper-sensitive about feeling controlled. Any request is a risk for sounding like a demand and therefore triggering irritation.
Asking someone who is abusive to do something your way rather than theirs is particularly likely to sound to them like you are telling them what to do. Their anger in response, of course, is your fault.
The interpretations below are based on the authors (who is not V!) clinical hunches, not scientific testing. They're meant just to give you a general indication of what your quiz suggests.
Scores that total 5-10 probably indicate normal human fallibilities with room for improvement. No one is perfect. If you think you are perfect, and scored therefore below 5, you might check again. Be sure the self score does not indicate a narcissism of excessive belief that you are perfect, another potential sign of narcissism
Too much self interest in your habits would be indicated by a total score of 10 to 30. Pay attention and you may fairly easily be able to lower that score considerably.
A total score of 30 or higher spells significant habits that probably do not serve you well. Time to make some serious habit changes!
40 to 60 or higher would indicate to me severe problems. With this understanding of why your relationships become distressed, hopefully you will commit yourself to some serious personal growth.
Again, note that these score interpretations are based on hunches, not an experimentally validated scoring system. They are meant as a personal heads-up, not a clinical diagnosis.
Uncomfortable with your score if it's too high or low. The bottom line is that much of this is basically habit-pattern, and habits can be changed. Awareness of these tendencies is a strong first step that can empower you to notice and fix slippages.
Scoring another
If someone you interact with regularly shows these patterns, it's not up to you to change them. Better for you to focus on how you yourself can change the dance you do with that person.
For instance, you can choose that you will no longer let yourself be intimidated or controlled by fear of anger. Just gracefully leave the situation for a cool down period (“I need to get a drink of water.”), and then return for a calmer second-go at the conversation.
When you have something important to communicate with a high scorer what can help? Be sure to follow the rule of talking about yourself, not about the other person. See my post on 6 sentence starters for sensitive discussions for illustrations of how to follow this rule to more effectively be past the deafness wall.
Having trouble getting your views heard? You can choose to speak up a second or third time about your concerns to increase the odds that your concerns or viewpoint will eventually get heard.
You can ask, after sharing a concern, “So what made sense to you in what I said?”
You can digest aloud what makes sense in what your partner said, and then make a second attempt to say your viewpoint. Once your partner feels heard, the odds go up that he or she will mirror your good hearing habits.
And becoming a master at win-win problem-solving can put you in a leadership role for situations in which you need to make a decision together so that your eventual plan of action heeds both of your concerns. This earlier post on win-win decision-making may help so that your partner feels that s/he has gotten what s/he wants even though your concerns also have been responded to in your plan of action.
Almost everyone tends to behave less narcissistically when they are happy. Most of us tend to become increasingly narcissistic as anxieties prime the pump of anger.
Anger promotes the sense that “What I want is holy, and what you want is irrelevant.” That's why it's so vital that in important conversations you stay calm. Talking about sensitive issues in calm good-humoured ways without arguing (link is external)has the highest odds of leading to mutual understandings instead of the narcissism trap.
The bottom line? For a happier life and more gratifying relationships, (link is external) especially if your scores indicated some narcissistic tendencies, tame these trends with better skills. Narcissism is not like height or eye colour. It's a behaviour problem. Upgrading your listening and shared-decision-making skills can make a huge difference!
I have been looking for some more more structured way of identifying the level of essential interactions and there isn't much out there. This test doesn't identify the type of abuse or interaction, it attempts to describe the volume. Having identified type then the test can be an easy way of finding the volume of it irrespective of type. This is from an article by Dr Hellier on Psych central. It has been edited by V but derives from that one source. Dr Hellier is a clinical research psychologist as far as I am aware and not a consultant. In other words in no competition to the counsellors here, she deals with psychiatric disorders particular psychopathy not marital problems.
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/02/1512:09 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I was lied to and I made decisions that put me in harms way. I was subject to a bait and switch and given promises by a loved one who was well aware that he had no intention of ever delivering on those promises nor being capable of delivering them. I was targeted not victimised. What is the difference between a victim or poor me and a target?
1. Targets feel flat and affect is bewildered
A Victim isn’t emotionally vibrant and attached to the events which they are sharing that were abusive. They appear as if they’ve just gotten back from a calming vacation. Very smooth. Cool. Detached.
Whereas a Target will appear locked in, bewildered, lost and troubled. They’ll cry, appear jumpy, nervous and afraid. They’ll space out then come back to the conversation with shocking emotion. They have an urgency with their speech and inflection and it will be full with emotions that are all over the place. There are instances of targets who are completely detached and disengaged; hopelessly depressed with a flat affect from the abuse. There will still be evidence of being lost in that “spaced out” appearance not like the cold, cool demeanour of a liar. They may have PTSD.
Targets experience the grieving process. Shock. Denial. Anger. moving all the way through acceptance. Whereas a Victim will appear to get over the emotions of the experience rather quickly. They don’t appear to dwell, (ruminate / obsess) over the “abusive” experiences.
2. Behaviour and actions differ in a poor me victim
Though the words they’re using say, “I’m afraid. Stalker. Scared for my life.” Their behaviour says something else. They’ve studied the target long enough and know the dark deeds they’ve committed to be able to twist history to use a convincing choice of dialogue, placing themselves in the position of the “Poor me.” They’re able to take conversations you’ve had previously and articulately add / detract from them just enough to appear as if you were behaving as a crazy person.
A Perfect example: Cutting and pasting parts of an email conversation (when you forward conversations, you can change the language) and present edited versions as “Evidence”. That’s not really “evidence” of course, it’s called falsifying evidence and can believe they’re above the law and backed by flying monkeys.
A target will be unsure: Foggy. Forgetful. Inarticulate. Shows confusion. Their words and thoughts are muddled. Chaotic. Disjointed. You can even see them stop and question the absurdity and validity of their story. Having diaries, recording will bring this to focus but even so reality is questioned.
It may appear that targets are trying to think of an answer, but we’re realizing based on the “surreal” details and the fact that the person were telling has changed their demeanor (eye rolls, doubtful looks) to them our story sounds artificial or we’re being accused of being “hysterical”, we feel defeated – we want to defend our honesty. Suddenly our credibility waivers – even though we’re the ones telling the honest to God’s truth; it’s very isolating.
Where does a loving person go with this kind of conversation? Most targets question themselves. We became accustomed to explaining the inexplicable by assuming responsibility. We try harder. We try to understand and change.
3. The next R of a "poor me" follows the same pattern
Victims don’t change a damn thing about their behaviour. They don’t seek help. They don’t look over their shoulders. (Unless they’re paranoid about karma catching up with them) They don’t have trouble sleeping at night or difficulty breathing at times. They aren’t afraid of you in the ways they’ve claimed to be afraid. They aren’t as afraid of you as you are of them. They don’t hang out in support groups. They don’t share their stories with other survivors. They don’t endure the traumatic symptoms of PTSD.
Targets can’t survive by any other way than with support. Seeking validation, seeking therapy, Higher power, or other review of our inner state. We’re shocked, scared and hurt, we feel broken by the abuse. We reach out, give back and share our stories with others. We try to warn the next target. We have the ability and show true empathy for other targets because we know what the abuse from a narcissist feels like. We feel others confusion. We don’t take the experience lightly, nor the feelings of those who’ve suffered this lightly.
Targets become very involved in our own therapy. We are motivated by hurt, anger, fear and determination to never be made a victim again, and thus pour ourselves into learning about our own behaviour, vulnerabilities and areas in need of improvement. A victim believes everyone else needs to change. This is like OJ saying he’s going to devote the rest of his life to finding the “Real killers” of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. He spent his time searching golf courses.
Targets are at home tending to their self-care and reading every tidbit of information regarding recovery they can get their hands on. Victims are out meeting new dating partners, out selling themselves on websites for dating, flirting, laughing and gayly enjoying a life not fettered by consequences. They post pictures of where they’re located or broadcast to social media that they’re at such and such location.
Targets don't announce our change in that way as there is the true danger of someone who uses that information to track us down. We show fear and make changes to our previous lifestyles, one that’s more self orientated and we are possible hyper vigilant.
4 Targets question themselves
Targets are full of self-doubt. If a person was very self-assured, they would instantly recognise abuse and walk away. They’d be confident that they could handle the situation and feel very comfortable labelling their former partner as “abusive”. They start to grow boundaries and question their own actions.
Targets are slow to use the word abuse – we’re not even looking outside ourselves for answers. We’re busy looking within; carrying tons of borrowed shame and guilt. We don’t throw the term around because of the far-reaching consequences and implications of the words, “Abused” and “Targets”.
5. There is denial by targets and they may return
Several posters here struggle with recognising abuse. Self questioning by the target 1. Was it me?
2. Everything that went wrong seemed to be my fault. I apologised and chased over and over.
3. The abuser was a fabulous wonderful person, I was told so many times. I caused his issues
4. It wasn't about what I did but about who I was.
5. I made excuses for my other to myself, others and him.
This post is from several internet sources
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/1504:31 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Narcissism and Abuse including disordered behaviour
It is estimated that around 1% of population suffers from Narcassistic Personality Disorder (NPD) which is disordered behaviour. Many more have sub clinical narcissism (estimated at 10% but I am uncertain) Many people who have NPD do not seek treatment and therefore are never diagnosed. Studies show that men are more likely to be narcissistic. Roughly 75% of the individuals diagnosed with NPD are men. Although almost everyone has some self-centred or narcissistic traits, most people do not meet the criteria for having a personality disorder. There is, however, a growing portion of the population that is displaying a greater number of toxic, narcissistic traits, which are having an adverse effect on their lives and the lives of people close to them, even if they do not meet the clinical diagnosis of NPD. Forming attachments to individuals who exhibit these negative traits often causes similar distress as a diagnosable narcissistic relationship with a disordered individual.
A new study from Ohio State University has found that one simple question can identify narcissists as accurately as the 40-item test that has been widely used to diagnose NPD. The question is simple, rating yourself on a scale of 1-7: “To what extent do you agree with this statement: I am a narcissist. (Note: The word ‘narcissist’ means egotistical, self-focused and vain.)” The questions are available or various versions by googling. Vs score was originally 6 and is now 10. So it can be lowered and raised by awareness and behaviour. However, while this study suggests that many narcissists will freely admit to their narcissistic tendencies, it is important to note that most narcissists resist the diagnosis of NPD. Narcissists, generally, do not like to be told that they are narcissists and disordered. In fact, they often have a strong negative and volatile reaction.
Below are some common traits that a narcissistic relationship partner is likely to have: (Note the degree to which these traits manifest themselves will vary largely depending on the individual.) -Sense of entitlement or superiority -Lack of empathy -Manipulative or controlling behaviour -Strong need for admiration -Focus on getting one’s own needs met, often ignoring the needs of others -Higher levels of aggression -Difficulty taking feedback about their behaviour
How do people become narcissistic? Is it a symptom of something else?
Narcissistic people often have narcissistic parents, who offered them a build up but no real substance. Their parents wanted them to be great, so they could be the parent of a great person, the best artist, smartest student, etc. Often narcissistic people were also neglected, as their parents were so focused on themselves that they could not attune to their child or meet their child’s emotional needs. The child was only useful to these parents when they were serving a purpose for them. Often, the parents of a person with NPD alternated between emotional hunger toward the child and disinterest.
Narcissists have inflated self-esteem (both self-soothing and self-aggrandising “voices”) a component of what my father, Dr. Robert Firestone, refers to as the “anti-self.” They are very fragile, because the flip side of their self-aggrandised feeling is very low self-esteem, the other component of the anti-self (made up of extremely self-hating and self-demeaning “critical inner voices”). So, for these people, even slight criticism can be a narcissistic injury, leading to an angry outburst and desperate attempts to regain their fragile, inflated self-esteem. Often, a condescending remark will help them to reestablish their superior image. Condescending is a common dynamic in narcissistic relationships. This behaviour can be traced back to the need desperate need narcissists feel to be above others. ----------------------------------------------------------- Grandiose Narcissism and Vulnerable Narcissism- two categories of narcissism
Grandiose narcissists display high levels of grandiosity, aggression and dominance. They tend to be more confident and less sensitive. They are often elitists and have no problem telling everyone how great they are. Usually grandiose narcissists were treated as if they were superior in their early childhood and they move through life expecting this type of treatment to continue. In relationships, grandiose narcissists are more likely to openly engage in infidelity or leave their partners abruptly if they feel that they are not getting the special treatment that they think they are entitled to.
Vulnerable narcissists on the other hand, are much more emotionally sensitive. They have what Dr. Campbell describes as a “fragile grandiosity,” in which their narcissism serves as a façade protecting deeper feelings of inadequacy and incompetence. Vulnerable narcissists swing back and forth between feeling superior and inferior. They often feel victimised or anxious when they are not treated as if they are special. This type of narcissism usually develops in early childhood as a coping mechanism to deal with abuse or neglect. In relationships, vulnerable narcissists often worry about how their partners perceive them. They can be very possessive, jealous and paranoid about their partners having flirtations or affairs.
How does having a narcissistic partner negatively impact a relationship?
This section is not discussing Narcissism disorder.
Narcissistic relationships tend to be very challenging. Narcissistic partners usually have difficulty really loving someone else, because they don’t truly love themselves. They are so focused on themselves that they cannot really “see” their partner as a separate person. They tend to only see the partner in terms of how they fill their needs (or fail to fill their needs). Their mates and children are only valued in terms of their ability to meet these needs. Narcissistic partners often lack the ability to have empathy with their partners’ feelings. This lack of empathy leads to a lot of hard feelings.
Yet many people are drawn to narcissistic relationships. Narcissistic partners can be very captivating, especially at the beginning. They tend to have a “big” personality. They are the life of the party. They can make you feel that you too must be great for them to choose you. However, in time, they can be too controlling in relationships. They may feel jealous or easily hurt. When narcissistic injuries occur, they often lash out and can be cutting. Their reactions are dramatic and attention-seeking. According to narcissistic personality expert, Dr. W. Keith Campbell, “The effects of narcissism are most substantial in relation to interpersonal functioning. In general, trait narcissism is associated with behaving in such a way that one is perceived as more likeable in initial encounters with strangers— but this likability diminishes with time and increased exposure to the narcissistic individual.” This is why many people, who have been in a long-term narcissistic relationships, describe a very passionate and exciting honeymoon period in the beginning and then a sharp decline as the likability decreases and the self-centred behaviours increase. Narcissists are prone to falling madly in love with someone instantly and are very quick to commit. However, this initial love and commitment is not easily sustained.
When you are in a narcissistic relationship, you may feel very lonely. You might feel like you are just an accessory and your needs and wants are unimportant. Narcissistic partners act as if they are always right, that they know better and that their partner is wrong or incompetent. This often leaves the other person in the relationship either angry and trying to defend themselves or identifying with this negative self-image and feeling badly about themselves.
What are some things a person can do to deal with a narcissistic partner?
If you find yourself in a narcissistic relationship, you can first recognise what you have chosen and reflect on the unconscious motives that might have led you to choose such a partner. Did you have a self-centred parent? Are you more comfortable with your partner being in control, so you can then take be more passive? Do you get a sense of worth from being attached to someone who is in the spotlight? Does the negative image of yourself they foster with their criticisms and superior attitudes resonate with your own critical thoughts about yourself? Many people who fall in love with narcissists have issues around co-dependency. They will put up with a certain amount of abuse because they don’t feel confident enough in themselves to set boundaries or be on their own.
Understanding your role in the narcissistic relationship is important.
You can then start to challenge yourself to change your half of the dynamic. This will, in turn, challenge your partner to change their style of relating. You can recognise the fragility of your partner’s self-esteem and have compassion for the fact that his or her inflated sense of self, superiority and grandiosity is a cover up for the flip side of self-hate and feelings of inadequacy. You can also develop your own self-confidence and self-worth by learning to practice self-compassion. In all encounters, act equal, and treat your partner as an equal.
How can people face and overcome their own narcissism?
A narcissist can challenge and overcome their narcissism by recognising and separating from both the self-soothing, self-aggrandising and self-attacking attitudes of their critical inner voice. The attitudes they internalised very early on in their lives. They need to recognise and challenge these attitudes toward themselves and toward others. One method for doing this is through Voice Therapy.
Narcissists further need to differentiate from negative traits of their parents or early caretakers that they are still acting out in their current lives. These traits might include superior attitudes or condescending behaviours. They also need to give up the adaptations they made to the ways their own parents neglected them or were emotionally hungry toward them. These adaptations may have once been their survival mechanisms, but they now manage to push others away and sabotage personal lives and goals. Narcissists also need to break patterns of being self-centred or withholding. They must fight the tendency to always compare themselves to others and the need to be the “best” or “perfect” all the time.
Another way to cure narcissism is to foster self-compassion rather than self-esteem. Psychologist Dr. Kristin Neff has done extensive research on self-esteem versus self-compassion. The difference between self-esteem and self-compassion is that self-esteem centres on evaluating yourself in relation to others and an emphasises a need to be special. While self-compassion focuses on “treating oneself with kindness, recognising one’s shared humanity, and being mindful when considering negative aspects of oneself.” Dr. Neff’s studies have found that self-esteem leads to higher levels of narcissism, but self-compassion does not.
Self-compassion actually combats narcissism because it includes the idea of a shared humanity with all other human beings, which leads to more compassion for others. Self-compassion also fosters real self-awareness, a trait many narcissists lack, as it promotes that we be mindful of our faults, which is the first step to changing negative traits in yourself.
For there to be any hope of recovering a good relationship from a narcissistic relationship, the narcissist must overcome their self-centred and negative traits. They need to challenge their self-feeding habits and pseudo-independent stance. They need to focus on developing their capacity for empathy and respect of others. Lastly, they need to develop transcendent goals, to care about and invest in others’ well-being. Being generous and giving to others are examples of behaviours that would be corrective, building real self-compassion and practicing focusing outside of oneself. -------------------------------------- Abusers with Narcism, abusers with anti-social personality disorder (sociopath/psychopath) and abusers
First of all, do realise that not all abusers are the same. Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder would once have been called a sociopaths or psychopaths. Some of the diagnostic criteria may have changed since those times, but for the most part, the behaviours of this group of people have remained quite consistent. Someone can have traits of more than one personality disorder such persons used to be referred to as borderline being both NPD and APSD. Schizoid personalities tend not to form Rs as they suffer from Paranoa, introversion and OCD and tend to be reclusive and loners.
It might help to distinguish the two personality disorders by thinking about abnormal behaviour as occurring along a continuum. Thus, someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder might exhibit some of the same types of behaviours as someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder, they won’t be as extreme. Thus, both types are into power and control. They also will use abuse to gain one or both of these. However, the narcissist who’s successful in business or profession is not inclined to resort to violence in the way that those with Antisocial Personality Disorder is. Those with NPD have a higher level of impulse control, and will use more subtle tactic playing top dog, while making others serve as subjects. But then, those suffering from pathological levels of narcissism see themselves as far superior anyway—and as entitled human beings.
Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder use violence when angry or thwarted. Thus, inclined not just to beat up partners and children, but will get into fights or engage in physical violence with most anyone—because there is poor impulse control and the fight response seems to be easily triggered. Thus, those with Antisocial Personality Disorder may beat up a policeman even though they know the consequences—and don't want to suffer them, either; they are out-of-control believing that the ends always justify the means.
Neither an NPD nor those one with Antisocial Personality Disorder really are capable of showing empathy for others. It is easy for them to use the tactics they do, to get whatever it is they want, exactly because they don’t identify with others’ feelings—that the means they are using to reach their desired might be very painful and hurtful to others—if not deadly. However, depending on the degree of pathological narcissism they might be able to realise, at least to some degree, how their behaviour has impacted others. They may also may try and make behavioural changes because they want to maintain his family, for example. Nonetheless, while their partner may want to believe this suddenly cooperative response is about love, in reality, love might have nothing to do with it. The narcissist might be more concerned with preserving an image or continuing to gain some benefit perceived as important—that essentially demands having a seemingly happy family. They might actually consider the wife and the family a necessity, on the one hand, while actually perceiving them as a nuisance.
Those with either of these two personality disorders will tend to treat others as objects, there for his personal benefit and use. However, again, the individual with Antisocial Personality Disorder is most inclined to resort to the most extreme measures to accomplish this. Still, there are cold-hearted narcissists who can engage in despicable behaviour. And, as they seek to maintain control and be in charge, or as they strive to be better than their partner and seek to prove this, such narcissists can make the lives of the women in their lives quite miserable--but without yielding to physical violence as those with Antisocial Personality Disorder will do.
These narcissists are cool and calculating. They operate in a world constructed of fear versus one of love. They seek to achieve desired results by making others feel compelled to go along with them—because these others don’t want to suffer the anticipated painful consequences of doing otherwise. The thing is, the partner might well have conceded to the narcissist’s wishes anyway—without having to endure the abusive behaviours. But how could a narcissist appreciate that someone might be motivated purely from love when indeed, they don’t know what love is? They don’t feel it—they only know how to act it out, in order to seduce and get their way.
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[Don’t expect the Partner with either Narcissistic or Antisocial Personality Disorder to Change
Usually those with high levels of Narcissistic or Antisocial Personality Disorder is apt to change. Unlike the neurotic, they do not really suffer emotional pain because of who they are. Thus, they are not motivated to change. Rather, they are often quite proud of the pain they cause. They wear this as if it was a worthy accomplishment—a badge of courage. Narcissists or Antisocial Personality Disorder partners can be charming. However, the narcissist can often offer more than that; they can often provide the good life because of his aggressiveness and willingness to win at all costs. Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder, on the other hand, is apt to be bad news in every respect. Their impulsivity is apt to result in problems with relationships. In turn, this affects their ability to hold a job. They is also more apt to become engaged in crime and to get into trouble with the law. Major substance abuse issues are often a problem as well.
Abuse
We can see that those with Narcism are not always abusers and those with antisocial personality disorder are always abusers.
Not all narcissists have a disorder, they may have mild version of the personality traits to a certain extent the scale 0-40:
0-5 low self esteem doormat (needs help) 6-12 low normal (codependent) 12-16 normal 16-24 high function narc (score can be lowered with treatment) 24-30 low function (withdraw) 30+ disordered (get out)
There are abusers (reactive and situational) who do not have personality issues and there are those who abuse systematically who may have serious personality disorders. There are those who are so cold they abuse in a controlled way.
Abuse is about power and control in the relationship and follows a seductive sweet cycle. Narcissists eecially those with a disorder may not resort to behaviours that those with Antisocial Personality Disorder regularly do, the narcissist would probably use more tactics but they are afraid of being caught. Remember, though, the narcissist is more concerned about consequences. Those with Antisocial Personality Disorder are inclined to just go ahead and act.
The thing that you must remember is that neither is inclined to act in a way that is in the targets best interest. It is all about them—and it will continue to be that way. Furthermore, no matter how perfect and accommodating a partner you are, you will undoubtedly continue to suffer emotional abuse and verbal abuse—if not worse.
Tell me, is this how you really want to live your life? Do you want to be with someone who is so disordered and wants to control you?
This is the question you need to be asking yourself. After all, those who have either Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder are apt to always remain the same—with this mental disorder that feeds verbal abuse and emotional abuse that destroy you a little more each day. And so frankly, if you want the insanity to stop, you must make that move. Furthermore, the sooner you do it, the better.
This is extracted from Dr England's book on personality disorders and is also on her website. V did not write this.
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 08/05/1505:10 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I had really hoped this thread would die a natural death, however you keep ressurrecting it.
I agree very whole heartedly with Hope and I am afraid that this thread will make more people think they are in abusive situations than really are.
Being here is confusing enough without throwing this into the mix. Those that truly are in abusive situations will figure it out when they are ready to face it.
I was in an emotionally abusive relationship. That doesnt make my X a bad person, nor myself. It made us damaged. And it was up to each of us to recognize and stop the behavior. I will share though that a trained professional recognized it and suggested it to me about 15 years before I was ready to see it. Instaed of helping, I decided she was nuts and i never went back to her. A shame because things could have been very different.
I hope all of this stuff has helped you process your situation and your role in it, but I hope the time is near that you are ready to put this aside and begin to focus on your future instead of your past.
Good luck.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
I don't agree, information is valuable. I make no judgement as to the use others make of it. That is their choice nor do I mind read. For my part I intend to keep the thread.
I do understand your concerns and to a certain extent they are valid.
There is nothing I hope in these posts I trust that labels others a 'bad person'. And those who are both abused and abusive then it is important to know and recognise.
Personally I feel it is important to object to amateur diagnosis but abuse is not necessarily a pathology but a behaviour which can be assisted. I am sad it took you 15 years to understand the dynamic of your R.
Of course your view is welcome contrary views always are, they challenge us. Hence the post on victims vs targets above which has taken me almost a month to put together after Cadet made his last challenge.
I think posters here are smart enough to settle to understand and work their way through any confusion. Abuse is less confusing than most dynamics. Much more straightforward and if it raises a question to me that's good.
I have a different view so we will have to agree to disagree.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
In my own research of abuse, some of which you have regurgitated here, I have found that at one time or another, based on the red flags of abuse, we have all either been abused, abuser, or both.
Personally, I believe that, with the exception of physical abuse, abuse is a very subjective thing and what one person may view as abusive, another may view as normal.
Please dont ever feel sorry for anything I may have experienced in my life, and believe me when I say there is much more than you can imagine. Everything I have experienced has become a tool to make me stronger and into the person I am today. Which is only a good thing.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
