Because she will not see the nice things you are doing or saying. Everything that you do for her will be seen as a weak, it will all go unnoticed. She is in the "too little too late" mentality right now. She will as see them as an attempt to manipulate her.
I know the "rules" are rigid but they do work. Like I said my H doesn't verbalize he notices the changes, but his interactions with me change.
Go see your doctor. Get on anti depressants if you need them. They do help clear your head, help you to stay calm and focused, and help you on your path.
Me 44 H 46 3 DD 22, 18, 15 1 DS 2.5 M 10/1992 BD1 2/2014 BD 2 7/19/2014 Moved in with OW 7/20/2014
Think back to high school. If there was some girl that you didn't like that had the hots for you, how would you react if she wrote you a love song? How about if she came up to you and said "don't you like my new glasses?" "Isn't my new shirt cool?" "You know, I started working out..." "I really do love you, you know." Would those things turn you on to her? What if you left for summer break and came back and she was toned and dressed better and wore contacts and had her hair done nicely? You might be into her then, right?
How about another way - if you put a frog in cold water and slowly heat it to a boil, the frog won't notice and will burn itself to death. But if you drop it in boiling water, it will jump right out.
My point is that if you foist every change on her, she isn't going to notice.
Nobody is saying to be a jerk. If you make coffee and you think she wants one, fine. But if you drive 40 minutes to get her favorite coffee, that's a no-no.
Ultimately it's not about doing what you think is RIGHT. It's about doing what WORKS.
I know how you feel. Everything inside of you is telling you to pursue this woman, to show her that you're willing to change, to prove to her what a good man you are, to prove to her how much you love her because certainly that will melt through the ice and bring her back to you. It *has* to work! How could it not?
These rules here don't make any sense -- how could moving forward and giving her space bring you back together? Doesn't that just give her permission to leave you sooner? Doesn't it seem like you're just endorsing what she's doing and playing into her story that you didn't love her enough because you're willing to give up so easily?
The other thing I'm sure you think is that your situation is different. Your time together, the circumstances of your marriage, the bond you share together is just different and more special than all these other situations. The rules don't apply to you because your marriage and how you feel is special. Plus you're a good man! It's not like you're a bum who doesn't support his family or lays around the house drunk all day! You're a good provider and a good father so why is this happening?
Therefore, pursuing your wife, and proving that you love her, and demonstrating your changes to her MUST be the path back, it simply must. It makes all the logical sense in the world.
Do I have that right?
Your situation IS different from everyone else's, and your wife IS different than other walk away wives. However, there are literally thousands of people who have come through this site over the years -- thousands. 100% of them think what you think and tried to do what you do.
When your spouse wants to leave and you want to stay, the reaction of the LBS is 100% formulaic and consistent. It is utterly predictable. AND IT NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER EVEN IN A MILLION YEARS WORKS. WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK, IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK, IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
The thing that is common among you and everyone else here is that your spouse is "done". When people are "done", the way they think and act is also formulaic and 100% predictable. The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech that so many people get is delivered almost verbatim among a population of people who have never met each other.
The way that pursuit is responded to is consistent across people from all different ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds.
When someone is done, they want out, they do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to be pursued.
They are not open to seeing your changes
They are not open to having your love proven to them
They are not open to being reminded of the past by reading their old love letters
They are closed off. Your attempts to tear the wall down have only one response -- to build the wall higher.
This is 100% predictable and repeatable again and again and again which is why the rules are the way they are.
The rules are rigid because you cannot be "a little bit of a pursuer". You cannot "peacock your changes only a little bit". Either you are pursuing or you aren't. Either you are making your changes believable or you aren't. Half measures will not work. You have to put all your chips in the middle and be "all in" or you're not really doing it.
You asked about success. There is no guarantee of success. As Winston Churchill said of democracy, this is the worst system there is except for all the alternatives.
Most people here do not get their spouses back.
Why? Because by the time you get here, you are already past the tipping point. Your marriage is already over and you are trying to salvage something that has already escaped you.
Secondly, most people LACK THE DISCIPLINE TO FOLLOW THE RULES. They keep backsliding, or convincing themselves that it's okay to break the rules, and then building elaborate justifications and narratives for why it's okay, and they continue to sabotage themselves over and over and over again.
The reason the success rate isn't higher isn't because the program doesn't work, it's because it's too hard for most people to do consistently because they don't have the discipline for it.
I have been on this site for 4 years and I've seen a lot of cases come and go. There are absolutely many great successes to be found here where the person DID have the discipline to do it right, followed the rules, and got their spouse back. Many many cases.
In other situations, people do everything right and still do NOT get their spouse back. There are no guarantees.
My other observation over 4 years is that everyone comes away from this site a better person. It is an excellent environment to journal, to process your feelings, to work through this transition in your life among an amazing group of people who can not just sympathize but empathize. They know *exactly* what you're going through and how you're feeling, and more and more of them arrive every day. You are not alone. I have made lifelong friends here.
For my own part, I did get my spouse back and we enjoyed another three years of marriage. At the end of that three years, I was able to leave the marriage without regret or guilt, because I *knew* that I brought it. That I was the best husband and father that I could be, and became a man that only a fool would leave. Aside from the birth of my kids that feeling is the greatest gift I have received in my life -- to have a clear conscious about my role in things and to have no regrets.
This site and this program can do that for you, and you take that with you no matter what happens in your marriage. If your situation does not work out, you will take your learning and your new relationship skills, and your changes into a new relationship with a great degree of confidence because you now KNOW you have the skills to make it work. That new relationship may be with your current wife, or may be with someone new, but either way a great deal of happiness awaits you at the end of the tunnel. You can't see, feel, or believe it where you are now, but I promise it's there and it's waiting for you.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
this is really hard. I do understand the principles. But as you say, I feel compelled to do some of the no-no's. I will tone it down and not grovel.
I just met with a lawyer, and it really scared me. She said divorces almost always end up worse than either party thought they would. Even when people start out with good intentions, it almost always goes bad. Bad for the kids, bad for both of the spouses. Bad for everyone.
I have to do everything in my power to avoid this from happening. I have to plant some seeds in her heart and in her mind to give her some awareness of how much I love her and how much better it could be together, than what we are facing if we D. I just have to. Maybe I'm wrong but my heart says to do it and all my life I have followed my heart.
For example, she just went to look at a house yesterday. She came back and said, "yikes. it was in bad shape. I realize now that whoever moves out is not going to have a very nice place to live. So I guess since I'm the one making this all happen, I need to be the one to do that." Another thing, we have an electric car, that she loves. We have discussed that we will probably have to sell it because it can't drive long distances and we she won't have a backup for trips anymore (my car). So she will have to give up the car she loves and live in a crappy house. Also she has acknoweledged that money is going to be tight, so vacations and even simple things like going to the movies will have to be cut. I would like to just point out to her that she doesn't have to give up all these things. The alternative is to say with me, and accept the new found love I want to give her, and she can keep the car and the vacations, and go to the movies as much as she wants, and get great backrubs, and the kids won't be at risk, and we will have money for college...
Shes about to go on a trip for 5 days and spend a lot of time in the car. I feel like if I write her a short letter to plant some seeds in her heart and mind, and remind her there is an alternative to the yucky plan she's on of a yucky house, no money to spend, etc.. the words I say will echo in her mind while she's driving and talking with her friend when she gets there, and she will contemplate these things a little more than she would if I do nothing.
I know you will all say I'm wrong. And perhaps I am. But I am so compelled to do this, I think I can keep the basic principles in mind and not beg and not grovel in my approach it will not do so much harm, and might do a tiny bit of good. I really need her to just contemplate the two paths.... and at this point she is not even considering the path back home. I feel like if she can take one second to just step back and see there is a choice and one is pretty yucky, that's all I want is for her to realize the repercussions and realize there is a choice still. Not asking her to change her mind right now... just planting seeds that would hopefully get her to think about it a little more before she jumps into it.
Breathe .... and I will try to tell you .. please listen. Ever see someone who is drowning in quicksand, the more they struggle the faster they sink? This my friend is you right now ... all THAT ^^^^^ ... you are pursuing ... DO NOT DO THIS ... and for Heavens sake you can write that letter but don't you dare give it to her nor let her read it .. write it and burn it.
I am trying to give you a rope and pull you out ... you can grab on to the rope ... or ... you can do as others have .. not listen to the advice and be in far worse shape here in a few months. Your choice my friend.
Lets look at what your wife is currently looking at. Remember ... she does not need you to point this stuff out ... she just had the fantasy of a new house (this goes with the new life she has been plotting in her head for some time) Well ... chink in the fantasy #1 ... house was in rough shape. Chink #2 ... that car she loves will have to go. Chink #3 $$$ will not be like they were ... see the trend here, just let these little glimpses of reality sink in for her, allow her to see them .. all this time YOU need to work on YOU. By you pursing and putting pressure on this ... she will become focused on escaping, however if she is not feeling trapped then the urgency to escape is less, gives you time to start doing what you need to do... what we all have subscribed to here .. GAL, 180, PMA, detach.
Gabs no one can force you to do it this way .. if you do not want the help that's cool, however ... remember you came here.. .WHY>? To save your M? ... or to tell us we are all wrong in believing in this system ... the same one that I happened to use and actually saved my M. I am here to tell you ... that last post .. if you do go that route, its a mistake. Regardless I and the people here will help you because we have been there, we know the pain ... we have already walked miles of the journey you are about to embark on.
I know how you feel. Everything inside of you is telling you to pursue this woman, to show her that you're willing to change, to prove to her what a good man you are, to prove to her how much you love her because certainly that will melt through the ice and bring her back to you. It *has* to work! How could it not?
These rules here don't make any sense -- how could moving forward and giving her space bring you back together? Doesn't that just give her permission to leave you sooner? Doesn't it seem like you're just endorsing what she's doing and playing into her story that you didn't love her enough because you're willing to give up so easily?
The other thing I'm sure you think is that your situation is different. Your time together, the circumstances of your marriage, the bond you share together is just different and more special than all these other situations. The rules don't apply to you because your marriage and how you feel is special. Plus you're a good man! It's not like you're a bum who doesn't support his family or lays around the house drunk all day! You're a good provider and a good father so why is this happening?
Therefore, pursuing your wife, and proving that you love her, and demonstrating your changes to her MUST be the path back, it simply must. It makes all the logical sense in the world.
Do I have that right?
Your situation IS different from everyone else's, and your wife IS different than other walk away wives. However, there are literally thousands of people who have come through this site over the years -- thousands. 100% of them think what you think and tried to do what you do.
When your spouse wants to leave and you want to stay, the reaction of the LBS is 100% formulaic and consistent. It is utterly predictable. AND IT NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER EVEN IN A MILLION YEARS WORKS. WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK, IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WILL NOT GET YOUR WIFE BACK, IT WILL PUSH HER FARTHER AWAY.
The thing that is common among you and everyone else here is that your spouse is "done". When people are "done", the way they think and act is also formulaic and 100% predictable. The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech that so many people get is delivered almost verbatim among a population of people who have never met each other.
The way that pursuit is responded to is consistent across people from all different ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds.
When someone is done, they want out, they do NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT want to be pursued.
They are not open to seeing your changes
They are not open to having your love proven to them
They are not open to being reminded of the past by reading their old love letters
They are closed off. Your attempts to tear the wall down have only one response -- to build the wall higher.
This is 100% predictable and repeatable again and again and again which is why the rules are the way they are.
The rules are rigid because you cannot be "a little bit of a pursuer". You cannot "peacock your changes only a little bit". Either you are pursuing or you aren't. Either you are making your changes believable or you aren't. Half measures will not work. You have to put all your chips in the middle and be "all in" or you're not really doing it.
You asked about success. There is no guarantee of success. As Winston Churchill said of democracy, this is the worst system there is except for all the alternatives.
Most people here do not get their spouses back.
Why? Because by the time you get here, you are already past the tipping point. Your marriage is already over and you are trying to salvage something that has already escaped you.
Secondly, most people LACK THE DISCIPLINE TO FOLLOW THE RULES. They keep backsliding, or convincing themselves that it's okay to break the rules, and then building elaborate justifications and narratives for why it's okay, and they continue to sabotage themselves over and over and over again.
The reason the success rate isn't higher isn't because the program doesn't work, it's because it's too hard for most people to do consistently because they don't have the discipline for it.
I have been on this site for 4 years and I've seen a lot of cases come and go. There are absolutely many great successes to be found here where the person DID have the discipline to do it right, followed the rules, and got their spouse back. Many many cases.
In other situations, people do everything right and still do NOT get their spouse back. There are no guarantees.
My other observation over 4 years is that everyone comes away from this site a better person. It is an excellent environment to journal, to process your feelings, to work through this transition in your life among an amazing group of people who can not just sympathize but empathize. They know *exactly* what you're going through and how you're feeling, and more and more of them arrive every day. You are not alone. I have made lifelong friends here.
For my own part, I did get my spouse back and we enjoyed another three years of marriage. At the end of that three years, I was able to leave the marriage without regret or guilt, because I *knew* that I brought it. That I was the best husband and father that I could be, and became a man that only a fool would leave. Aside from the birth of my kids that feeling is the greatest gift I have received in my life -- to have a clear conscious about my role in things and to have no regrets.
This site and this program can do that for you, and you take that with you no matter what happens in your marriage. If your situation does not work out, you will take your learning and your new relationship skills, and your changes into a new relationship with a great degree of confidence because you now KNOW you have the skills to make it work. That new relationship may be with your current wife, or may be with someone new, but either way a great deal of happiness awaits you at the end of the tunnel. You can't see, feel, or believe it where you are now, but I promise it's there and it's waiting for you.
Acc
Wow, this is deep, thank you for that! Made me want to cry then I felt joy!
Why would you want to IGNORE golden advice from wise vets who have trod the path before you and divorce busted their M's??!
If you persist in willfully ignoring advice here and doing it YOUR way, then be forewarned that you are doing it at your OWN peril...and the M will implode faster than any old ratty building.
Your choice.
I can feel the vapors of your desperation emitting from this computer screen and I am feeling extremely SUFFOCATED...even though I am not your wife!
Lose that fear and really START applying the DB principles for real.
Quit saying, "but..."
The guidelines are there for a reason because they actually WORK. Not some willy nilly rules that one makes up off the cuff in the Lord of the Flies jungle.
And you would be well advised to read up Cali's threads as your homework assignment. He's over in the MLC forum.
My suggestion is to listen to the board and the vets. Wonka and Caliguy have been great resources for me.
#1. Get control of your emotions - NOW. Wash your face with cold water, run, anything but your emotions are controlling you now and making a bad situation worse. You control your emotions. If necessary, go to the doctor for some anti anxiety or depression medication. They will help.
#2. Let her do her thing - no pursuit - none She will quickly realize that life without you will not be so rosy. Let me realize this for herself.
#3. Spend this time working on yourself, self help books, going out with friends, anything to get your focus off your situation. I know it feels like the end of the world but it is not. Try to focus on what is going right in your world. You will notice that many things are going well, look at them and be grateful.
#4, Man up - act with confidence, purpose and self respect. That will be key. Do not tell her what you are doing or why, just do it.
Keep posting friend and remember we are all on your side and have been in your shoes.
I'm not a vet and yes, I did it all wrong in the beginning. You have some excellent help here and in the early days when you find this site you dot want to listen to them. You want to save your M. Trust me, from my own personal experience. Listen to the experts. Your plan will not work. Do what these great people are telling you. I know it doesn't sit well with you. It didn't sit well with me either but when I applied the advice they gave I felt better. Is my M recoverable? Not sure but right now that's not the focus. Strange to say that but the reality is your old M is dead. Focusing on you is the important bit here. Yes, you feel hurt, rejected and a whole plethora of other negative emotions. Sort that out first. The vets will talk you through the rest. You are receiving excellent advice. Apply it.
Good luck.
Me:43 Her:42 M:14 S:9 EA started 2014/03 (or there abouts) PA started 2014/05/30 BD:2014/11/05 I left 2015/10/01 I returned 2015/05/02 She left 2015/06/10 OM still on the go.
You are thrashing because you're panicking and making things worse and worse. Please take a breath and do nothing for 24 hours. Just 24 hours. That won't make a difference in convincing your wife how much you love her and how mistaken she is about what she wants. Just wait 24 hours before you react. Here are some more detailed comments on your post:
Originally Posted By: gabs
this is really hard. I do understand the principles. But as you say, I feel compelled to do some of the no-no's. I will tone it down and not grovel.
There is no "tone it down". You either do it, or you don't. As Yoda said "do or do not, there is no try".
I wrote in my last post about discipline and how most people really struggle with it. It's a lot like weight loss. Losing weight is no mystery, simply consume less calories than you burn. Don't need a PhD for that. If the solution is that easy why are so many people overweight? Because people are not good at being disciplined and denying themselves of what they want to do. Right now you have to go on an emotional diet and stop feeding yourself emotional candy bars with all this pursuing!
"Toning it down" is a half measure. Half measures do not work. You have to *stop* pursuing. Not just pursue less. You actually need to stop completely or this will not work and you will just prolong your suffering.
Originally Posted By: gabs
I just met with a lawyer, and it really scared me. She said divorces almost always end up worse than either party thought they would. Even when people start out with good intentions, it almost always goes bad. Bad for the kids, bad for both of the spouses. Bad for everyone.
I met with a lawyer who told me the same thing -- she "scared me straight" as it were and convinced me to keep working on my marriage even though my spider sense knew my wife was cheating on me. Good lawyers want you to stay married as a matter of ethics, so will scare you in a first meeting to give you incentive to keep trying to make it work. The picture the lawyer painted was 1000x worse than my actual divorce turned out. Divorce is not good. Divorce is not your choice. Divorce is completely survivable.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
I have to do everything in my power to avoid this from happening.
True! Start by (1) Not pursuing, (2) act as if, (3) GAL and (4) follow all of Sandy's 37 rules religiously. If you want to do everything in your power to avoid this outcome, then that's what you have to do. Anything else is digging your hole deeper and deeper. You're like the kid at the beach who digs a hole in the sand through tremendous effort and then the hole collapses on him. That's where you're heading
Originally Posted By: gabs
I have to plant some seeds in her heart and in her mind to give her some awareness of how much I love her and how much better it could be together, than what we are facing if we D. I just have to. Maybe I'm wrong but my heart says to do it and all my life I have followed my heart.
Nope! NO NO NO NO NO. You cannot plant seeds in her heart. She is closed off to you. You cannot convince, cajole, beg, plead, influence, illustrate or elucidate. She will do the opposite and FORCE the opposite to work to get away.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
For example, she just went to look at a house yesterday. She came back and said, "yikes. it was in bad shape. I realize now that whoever moves out is not going to have a very nice place to live. So I guess since I'm the one making this all happen, I need to be the one to do that." Another thing, we have an electric car, that she loves. We have discussed that we will probably have to sell it because it can't drive long distances and we she won't have a backup for trips anymore (my car). So she will have to give up the car she loves and live in a crappy house. Also she has acknoweledged that money is going to be tight, so vacations and even simple things like going to the movies will have to be cut.
Holy Cow! Look at that! She realized all these things WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO POINT THEM OUT TO HER. If you had insisted that any house she looks at will be crappy before she looked at them, what do you think would happen? Most WAS would continue to house search until they found an example to prove you wrong, and that would make your situation worse.
THEY HAVE TO LEARN THESE THINGS FOR THEMSELVES, YOU CANNOT TEACH THEM, YOU CANNOT SHOW THEM, YOU HAVE TO LET THEM WALK THE PATH. THEY'LL GET IT, IT JUST MAY NOT BE ON YOUR TIMELINE.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
I would like to just point out to her that she doesn't have to give up all these things.
She knows, you don't have to tell her
Originally Posted By: Gabs
The alternative is to say with me, and accept the new found love I want to give her, and she can keep the car and the vacations, and go to the movies as much as she wants, and get great backrubs, and the kids won't be at risk, and we will have money for college...
She knows, you don't have to tell her
Originally Posted By: Gabs
Shes about to go on a trip for 5 days and spend a lot of time in the car. I feel like if I write her a short letter to plant some seeds in her heart and mind, and remind her there is an alternative to the yucky plan she's on of a yucky house, no money to spend, etc.. the words I say will echo in her mind while she's driving and talking with her friend when she gets there, and she will contemplate these things a little more than she would if I do nothing.
Nope. What will happen is she will roll her eyes, feel guilty, feel uncomfortable about your pursuit, start to hate how she's feeling, and then blame you for making her feel that way, and then she'll resent you more than she does already.
I promise promise promise that is exactly what will happen. Your words will only have that effect, no matter how beautiful they are.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
I know you will all say I'm wrong. And perhaps I am. But I am so compelled to do this, I think I can keep the basic principles in mind and not beg and not grovel in my approach it will not do so much harm, and might do a tiny bit of good.
Nope, it will do no good and lots of harm
Originally Posted By: Gabs
I really need her to just contemplate the two paths.... and at this point she is not even considering the path back home.
She spent hundreds of hours contemplating the two paths before she told you what she decided. Hundreds of hours. This has been well-contemplated and a decision has been rendered. No one does this because they wake up with a wild hair up their ass and then realize a few days later they did something dumb. It doesn't work that way. This has been agonized over and planned for months. Your words do not turn this around any more than you can stop a freight train by holding up a stop sign. It's completely ineffective.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
I feel like if she can take one second to just step back and see there is a choice and one is pretty yucky
She knows. You can tell her one million times until you're blue in the face and she won't know it any more than she does now.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
that's all I want is for her to realize the repercussions and realize there is a choice still.
Yes everyone knows that's what YOU want, including her. What does she want?
You're her husband, you love her, how can you support her in terms of pursuing what she wants, which is space and time away from you?
Are you man enough to support her and give her what she wants, or will you continue to insist on what you want like a petulant child? Sorry to be harsh, but please realize that by making this all about what you want and ignoring what she wants, you're feeding into the old pattern that is exactly what she wants to get away from.
You're not listening to her.
You're not respecting what she wants.
You are insisting that you know best and staging a campaign to prove it.
Originally Posted By: Gabs
Not asking her to change her mind right now... just planting seeds that would hopefully get her to think about it a little more before she jumps into it.
Plant no seeds. She knows what her options are and they have been carefully considered. A decision has been rendered.
Your response will take time -- lots of time. Nothing will be turned around or resolved this month or next month. Relax, breathe, slow things down and for the love of all that is holy STOP PURSUING. NO MORE LETTER WRITING!!!!
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
