Ghost Riding

[Zues126]

Sunny, Vanilla, Joe...thank you all. I've been mulling over what you told me and just marinating for a bit.

I do want to share the article I just got emailed from MWD. If you haven't read it I really recommend it. It speaks to how to be more selective and proactive at the onset of a relationship to ensure a better marriage:



From Michele at the Divorce Busting® Center
The Divorce Busting® Center
The Truth About Lasting Marriage
8/5/15

Hi,

If you want to make sure marriage lasts- an who doesn't?- there is one thing you need to ask a prospective mate. but what is that?

Does knowing one's fiancée's values, goals and aspirations increase the odds a couple will live happily ever after?" That's what reporters often want to know when interviewing me about the questions people should ask before tying the knot.

As someone who for several decades has specialized in working with couples teetering on the brink of divorce, I must admit I have a few opinions about this.

First of all, I'm convinced that far too many couples tie the knot when they are still in the infatuation stage of their relationship, a time when hormones run amok and lust looms large.

They don't do their homework up front; they fail to really get to know how their partners feel about the inevitable life-altering decisions.

It amazes me how much faith people have that healthy, happy marriages just happen. They don't.

So, on one hand, I'm glad people are giving some thought to interviewing their prospective mates about their life's goals, ambitions and aspirations. It may go a long way to weed out blatant mismatches.

(Although the cynical side of me wonders whether incompatible responses to important questions would bring wedding plans to a screeching halt or simply become debris that gets swept under the carpet to be dealt with post nup.)

Nonetheless, approaching marriage consciously and intentionally is always a good thing.

However, I'm equally convinced that knowing your prospective mate's thoughts about a variety of relationship issues does not provide future "love insurance". Here's why.

The late John Lennon once said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making plans."

No matter how much a couple agrees on whether they want children and if so, how many, how they'll handle finances and household chores, how they'll decide on religious issues or matters of sexuality, and so on and so on, the truth is, how people feel often changes over time.

For example, I recently worked with a young Mormon couple who totally agreed prior to marriage that they would be an active part of the LDS church.

The wife had converted because she was committed to the idea from the outset. However, as time passed, there was much about the religion with which she didn't feel comfortable.

Because she had agreed to convert, she felt guilty about her discomfort and failed to share it with her husband. Over time, her feelings of resentment grew and when she felt she could no longer stand the pressure, she filed for divorce.

Plus, regardless of how crystal clear you might be about your goals and direction for your marriage, life often has a funny way of throwing you curves. Then what?

I have worked with many couples over the years who have agreed in advance that they want children. They even agreed on the number of children they desired as well as the date they wanted to become pregnant.

However, eventually these couples learned sad news they hadn't even considered- they were unable to conceive. Months and years of frustration, hurt, disappointment and mutual blaming frequently took a toll on their marriages.

Tragically, many ended up divorced. They talked about having kids; they simply failed to talk about what happens if nature doesn't cooperate.

Similarly, I work with couples day in and day out who are very passionate during the early stages of their marriage. They even discuss the importance of maintaining passion and physical affection in their relationship over time.

But alas, kids happen. Busy jobs happen. Resentment happens. Bickering takes the place of watching movies together in the evening. Sex stops happening.

All of a sudden, the plans to keep sex juicy now seem like nothing more than a faded memory. And they're both too tired to do anything about it. Who knew?

So, is marriage nothing more than a crapshoot?

Does it pay to know anything about your mate-to-be at all?

Good question.

Here's the good news. Marriage isn't a crap shoot at all. In fact, we now know a great deal about what it takes to make marriages last and help people grow old together happily.

Sure, you should ask the big questions up front and steer clear of people whose basic values and goals clash with yours. That's Relationship 101.

But don't let those little check marks next to your compatible responses give you a false sense of security. Go the extra mile. Here's what you really need to know about your partner given the uncertainty of life's meandering path.

Regardless of your level of compatibility, conflict in marriage is inevitable. One of the most important things you need to know is whether your partner can stand the heat.

Will s/he be willing to get help when the going gets tough?

Is s/he willing to take a marriage education class to learn the necessary skills to get and keep your marriage on track or back on track?

Would s/he be willing to go to a qualified marriage counselor or speak to your pastor or rabbi?

And if you're going to talk, talk about the taboo, x-rated subjects.

Discuss infidelity, infertility, aging parents, job layoffs, unexpected illnesses or deaths. Talk about the hard stuff.

Does your partner know that over two thirds of what couples argue about in marriage is unresolvable?

Does s/he know the predictable transitional stages that ALL marriages go through regardless of how much couples love each other?

Does your mate know that while marriage is still one of the greatest institutions on earth, it's not for the faint of heart? In fact, it's damn hard work.

And since it only takes one person to end a marriage, you might want to ask your partner, "Under what circumstances would you feel that our marriage would be over?"

I know this question isn't pretty or romantic, far from it, but since most divorces are unilateral decisions, it might help to know what might prompt your spouse to call it quits.

It could be a deal breaker.

So, here's the bottom line from the Divorce Buster. Don't place too much weight on those compatibility quizzes.

Be more impressed with your partner's level of commitment.

With the right attitude and adequate set of relationship skills, even the quirkiest of personality differences or opposing life goals can be worked through.

Know your prospective partner's willingness to stay the course even when love isn't easy.


Warmly,

Michele

[Zues126]

Still sorting through some things, but wanted to share two quotes from a fiction book I was rereading.

The first quote honors the depth of the loss we've incurred. People that talk about how their M was bad and they wouldn't want to return to it because WAS did this or that, they are missing the point. It's not about having a "TedTalk" worthy M. It's about sticking it out even regardless.



"No, not love. I'm talking about the cycle of life. I'm talking about finding some alien creature and deciding to marry her and stay with her forever, no matter whether you even like each other or not a few years down the road. And why will you do this? So you can make babies together, and try to keep them alive and teach them so that someday they'll have babies, and keep the whole thing going. And you'll never draw a secure breath until they have grandchildren, a double handful of them, because then you know that your line won't die out, your influence will continue. Selfish, isn't it? Only it isn't selfish, it's what life is for. It's the only thing that brings happiness, ever, to anyone. All the other things- victories, achievements, honors, causes- they bring you only momentary flashes of pleasure. But binding yourself to another person and the children you make together, that's life."


The second quote touched on something that woke me up to how seductive affairs and entitlement are, our desires.

"She remembered the story from her childhood, about Adam and Even in the garden, and the talking snake. Even as a little girl she had said- to the consternation of her family- What kind of idiot was Eve, to believe a snake? But now she understood, for she had heard the voice of the snake, and watched as a wise and powerful man had fallen under it's spell:

Eat the fruit and you can have all the desires of your heart. It's not evil, it's noble and good. You'll be praised for it...and it's delicious."

[mutatio]

Hi Zues, I'm Mutatio. I've lurked 6 months and now are here. You have been my hero for the 6 months, so wise. I'd love your advice on my situation if you ever are suffering from insomnia.

It seem to me that the only way we can grow in respect to our demons is self loving and compassion. Your discussion may be at a higher level than this and I am sorry if I have missed the target. I am not the sharpest pencil in the cup.

Loved the Adam and Eve quote, it has struct a cord with me. Thank for all sharing your thought these last months, it has helped me and your one reason I am here and not lurking. You make a difference in my life. Wow, this sounds sappy

[Zues126]

Thank you Mutatio. I've read your sitch. I'll post when inspiration hits me. For now just know that I'm following you.

You know, I read something from photoka about doing what's right for children over husbands. I'm not sure what she really meant by that, but what it reminded me was something I've said to challenge people that justify D. People build cases on why they walk out on marriages citing that "they aren't happy, they haven't been their true selves, they are repressed, this isn't the life they want to live", etc, and their friends all give them their blessing to get a D.

My challenge is this: Replace the word "spouse" with "handicapped 10 year old". What if the spouse wanted to put their 10 year old son up for adoption because they felt repressed, felt that they were losing themselves, etc...people would be APPALLED! So WHY THE *($&% IS A SPOUSE ANY LESS IMPORTANT? DON'T THEY BECOME FAMILY WHEN YOU JOIN AND HAVE CHILDREN WITH YOU? Save me the stuff about how kids can't take care of themselves, I think it's garbage. Kids would live in a foster care too, it's their emotional wellbeing that would be shattered, just like the thousands on this board and the tens of millions across our nation. D is wrong.

And one other thing...all this LBS stuff about how we wouldn't want our old M back...tonight I'm feeling that's more garbage. Read my quote above about what happiness really is. It's about service. It's about sticking it out.

This country was founded on personal freedom and the right to pursue happiness...but over the last 50 years we've taken that WAY to far. We put personal freedom and individual happiness over everything. The entitlement is shocking to me. The idea that we deserve to be happy and that comes from pursuing our desires...BS.

Happiness comes from being the person God wants you to be. The spouse. The father. The mother. The employee. The member of the congregation. Etc. Sorry if it's not titillating. Guess what? The things that are exciting and bring rushes of pleasure don't bring happiness. And while a bad M may not bring romance, hot sex, and emotional bonding all the time it can still bring a sense of purpose, deep connection, and a unity that is deeper than just an exciting date night.

Despite this rant I am mostly at peace with the fact that the majority of the world doesn't feel this way. I'm not going to deny that. I'm not going to get upset about that. I'm not going to crusade to change that.

But I AM going to raise my kids and tell them my beliefs. I AM going to follow this path myself, and do what I can to influence those close to me. And I am going to do what I can to make this a requisite of anyone that wants to be close to me in the future.

Mic drop.

[asitis]

Great article. Another one of those things you want to post on FB both to help your friends, but (and yes I still entertain this fantasy) also to fire a big fat truth dart at your H or W.

I never thought there would be any circumstance other than sustained abuse or addiction that would lead my W to unilaterally seek to end our M. I know I would never have done it short of that. The problem is, I'd bet real money she would have said nothing. Even those values can change in time. Still, that they can change doesn't mean that where they are right now will be where they remain, but I really do wish I could go back and ask that question (h*ll I wish I could ask that questions about what do you think you would have answered if I had asked back then?).

Thanks for the article Zeus.

[Joe46]

Happiness comes from being the person God wants you to be. The spouse. The father. The mother. The employee. The member of the congregation. Etc. Sorry if it's not titillating. Guess what? The things that are exciting and bring rushes of pleasure don't bring happiness. And while a bad M may not bring romance, hot sex, and emotional bonding all the time it can still bring a sense of purpose, deep connection, and a unity that is deeper than just an exciting date night.

Amen Zues!! Very well said!!!

[asitis]

That leads me to my next point. I know I still have a lot of rage inside of me. It's subtle, because it's MUCH lower than it used to be, and my coping mechanisms have gotten stronger, so I can overlook it...but it's their. I listened to a TED talk today by a woman that was 3 times divorced talking about what she learned and I found myself FURIOUS! She admitted she regretted leaving her first two husbands, but then talked about the growth and what she's learned, etc. It was the one on "The person you should marry" talking about how you had to marry yourself, care for yourself, etc. It was all fine, but I was pissed at this idea that we can cause SO MUCH DESTRUCTION and then just be 'reborn' and talk about how much we've learned and put inspirational messages up on youtube. At some point I am disgusted that our culture celebrates these stories like they're successes when what I see is a woman that destroyed multiple families. I'm glad she's learned from it, but the fact that we act like divorce is just a developmental step in our lives PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm also angry about sex. No, not the current drought I'm in. I'm pissed that I feel the way I feel, and that I feel the gap between me and women will be unbridgeable. I resent my desires, and feel like I was cursed to be a man. The way I feel today I can't visualize being open about my feelings with a woman and being accepted and satisfied, so all I can visualize is gritting my teeth through years of being misunderstood until I die. And I feel like there is so much out there about how relationships should be, how women should be, how men should be, how sex should be, blah blah blah, that I just can't imagine a woman not writing me off in a few years, diagnosing me somehow, leaving me, and then years later having a breakthrough in which they have 'grown from the experience'.

Zeus, I was catching up on your latest thread, and wanted to respond to this post. First, one of the greatest fears men have is that we will be found inadequate. When our W's complain we read that as inadequacy and our shame is triggered. You (and I for that matter) are getting one hell of a dose of that right now. This is male hell. There is actually an evolutionary explanation for why we respond this way, and then we are further socialized to this basic core belief that we try to defend.

Being left is one of the biggest failures a man can have in terms of triggering this sense of inadequacy. So you need to recognize that this is a normal feeling you are having. You are wired through biology and socialization to feel this way. The best thing you can do is recognize this.

You are doing a lot to learn how to be a wonderful H to someone. You are committed to keep doing the hard work to do this. You are standing up with courage to face your weaknesses, problems, bad habits, and you are dealing with them. That is a very, very wonderful attribute, and not all that common. Most men would engage in compensatory soothing behavior (pursuing conquests, purchasing status objects that show our worthiness, substance abuse), and some sadly succumb to suicide and self-destructive behavior that might as well be suicide. Do you see how that sets you apart and makes you excellent H material?

I'm going to recommend a book (I really have to start a book review thread at some point, because I keep doing this - I'm a college professor as well as counseling grad student - so it's an occupational hazard): Patricia Love & Steven Stosny, How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It. My DB coach recommended it highly (& MWD has a blurb on the back cover praising it). DB Coach is a seasoned marriage counselor & therapist, as well as coach. It may be one of the handful of relationship books I've read that I'd say are must reads for both men and women. It overdraws generalizations, but besides that, it is excellent and well informed IMHO. The reason I recommend it is they really address this well-known problem of male shame of inadequacy & how to address it in a way that turns it into an asset as well as something to be wary of and find healthy compensatory habits to mitigate.

So, PMA: these fears are unfounded. You are adequate. You just need to find a partner who will work with you so that you can apply the skills and the new resolve to recognize that Ms are hard work and that you will do the hard work. That may be a reconciliation or it may be someone new. We all have the urge for emotional and physical closeness. You aren't abnormal in this and it isn't a defect. If you look on my just closed thread you'll see a bunch of us joking about our unmet needs. I've seen enough of you to know you are going to do just fine in the R department at some point. Focus on your pain now, care for yourself, and don't worry about that fuzzy future.

[Zues126]

You're right on asitis...for me the biggest loss in this D was my sense of purpose. Every day everything I did was for my partner. Every obstacle- what motivated me to keep going was to take care of her. That was how I defined myself- the man who toiled to show his love for STBX.

She, incidentally, defined herself as the mother of our children, and made them her focus. I felt neglected because I gave to her and she only gave to them. I'm sure some would say we should only give to God, and give to each other because that's what HE wants.

Without her I feel I've been adrift. My life is fine. I don't love her, like her, or miss her. What I miss is having someone to give my life to. Maybe that's not healthy. Maybe it's ok. But that's how I feel.

This morning I am incredibly anxious. Like the panic and terror that can overwhelm you right after BD when the reality sets in. It's so horrible sometimes that even after a year I have moments when I wake up and wonder 'where did my life go?!?' Maybe I had too much caffeine and my mind is racing.

So I meditated for a while. I'm still anxious...but I can accept that voice is just one of my emotions, and doesn't define me. I will make my choices today based on who I want to be.

I am heading over now to meet with one of my old friends (a friend of my dad's I stayed with for a while, he's pushing 80 now, but at this point he's a friend of mine as well). We play chess once in a while at the coffee shop. It's been a few months, so time to get together again. He is a good man and I am grateful for his company.

Peace to all of you today.

[asitis]

Most of us have this urge to seek completion in another. The irony is that you can't healthily until you have first found completion in yourself. It's sort of like famous psychologist quote about it was only after he fully accepted himself as he was, was he then able to change. So it is a very normal urge, and it is good that you are aware that you have it, as so many people jump into relationships with this urge unrecognized & it makes all sorts of mischief beyond the usual relationship struggles.

Meditation isn't a quick fix, do it in response to a stress. It really only works well as a regular practice. Better to put in 5 minutes a day. It may be rough, as you will find your mind wanting to race, but that is a good thing to see, as well as the opportunity to train yourself to come back to a focus like the breath. Every time your mind races off, you build that capacity to catch it & bring it back. Then, when you are having a morning like this, sitting is much more effective at bringing down the anxiety. It does some good even if you aren't sitting regularly, but it is this cumulative, ever day training and creating some little bit of emotional space that really is where you see the difference. And that can take months and months before you really settle down in a way that you go - OH, so this is what my life can be like I never knew.

Another trick for when your mind is racing is to do something that requires a lot of focus and attention. A big part of what is leading to the anxiety and fuelling it so that you can't settle down is the story lines you feed it. If you have to do something you can really focus on, those story lines have to be dropped for a while. The fuel for the fire is removed, and the flames die down a bit.


Have fun w/ the friend, go with the decaf.

[Zues126]

Won with white, drew with black. With white I played a nice grad prix system in response to his sicilian and built steady pressure on the king side. I didn't force the attack, but I just gradually build the position until there were too many threats and the tactical opportunities were overwhelming. It took a little courage as I sacrificed some material on the queenside, but by equalizing I would've lost my initiative. I had faith and I help up. With the black pieces I was on my heels the entire game but locked up the position and achieved a fortress to force a draw. Good times. I like playing online, but over the board is so much better.

OK- back to the topic at hand. I hear what you're saying about the 'needing someone else to complete you' stuff. I don't quite feel that way, more so that I am mourning the loss of purpose that was in my life. And if I do long for another relationship I'm ok with that to a degree. I'm past the point of needing anyone to fix me or rescue me, but I'm not the Buddha either.

I both agree and disagree with the idea of being complete on your own first. It makes sense to a point...but the part that I challenge is this implication that we are to go on some spiritual and personal growth path in which we end up as some balanced, centered, enlightened spouses, and then we can attain some type of relationship utopia. The fact is that I have, and always will have, many problems. And so does everyone, including the millions that have relatively good marriages (meaning ups and DOWNS but that stay together and find purpose and satisfaction from the partnership). So while I'm all about avoiding the paths the lead straight to destruction, I am not too hung up on achieving any pinnacle of being a DB/Therapist/Priest/TedTalksSpeaker/Socially approved new age guy. Whoever wants to be with me will have to accept that I'm just another suffering fool. The fact is no matter what I do there will be times when the R will seem stifling, restrictive, and frustrating. I'll just make sure to hold out for someone that convinces me that they understand the road ahead and that they're in it for the beauty of the struggle, not for their personal happiness.