So Zues, I am reading between the lines here, I should throw my H to an alligator, or his mother? Got it!
You are right, I think for my sitch it was a general rant and not directed at me. I believe my H is still in his own head completely unaware of how any of this is affecting me, he is in his own brand of hell and his mother is keeping him there. He needs to figure this out by himself. I believe some of his other rants were designed to get me angry, but not this one. This one is all him.
I am glad you are detached, sounds like a good place to be. I am working on getting there, its a tough one for me. Making small steps towards progress, with some setbacks. But to hear you describe it is inspiring me.
I love your posts, you bring a different perspective to the table and I learn a lot from you. Thank you and hope you have a great day!
Sunny, thank you for checking in on me. I am touched that you'd keep an alligator watch for me. I wish we could post pictures on here. That would be totally fun. I watched "PAN" with my daughters yesterday. At one point there was an enormous crocodile attacking them and I got super excited. I was like "this is just a day in the life for SunnyB"...I'm glad you took my black and white rants with a grain of salt. Hey, haven't seen any updates on your thread for a while. Please do check in when you can.
Zues, I updated on my thread, not a lot to say, really. Things have happened that I didn't mention, but I hit the basics. I actually saw the gators in Gainesville, not Miami, but it's all FL, right?
I take everyone's rants with a grain of salt, including mine.
Yup, after a heck of a year I'm ok not having much to say as well. It's very nice.
You know, these days when I think of marriage I see it as more of a business partnership. Maybe it's because I've been doing B2B sales for a while and have had a chance to work with many owners and see how they operate with their partners. In business the goal is easy, building an operation that brings in revenue. In marriage people have completely different pictures of what the heck they're expecting or steering towards. I know this sounds obvious, but I didn't always appreciate how different views could be. It's like if I say the word 'bicycle' we both picture a bike, but mine might be a different color, a mountain bike vs. a street bike, etc.
Looking back at the end of my M it sure seems like it's destruction was unnecessary. I still do feel like we never really gave it a chance. We jumped in, things got difficult, and they just ran into the ground until she bailed. It would be like opening the shop, losing money, and maxing out all lines of credit, then filing BK and shutting the doors. No thoughts of advertising, marketing, adjusting costs, etc. Just open, fail, close. That's sure how it seems looking back. Of course I tried some things, she tried some things...but compared to how important marriage is and how destructive divorce is it sure doesn't seem like what we tried was proportionate to what was at stake. I say this now from a place of calm, peace, and acceptance...just how it truly looks.
We've talked about not settling, another of my 'black and white' struggles. I am starting to see that I won't settle next time...but I think in the right way. This doesn't mean I won't settle on someone that is human, has flaws, vices, insecurities, quirks, and failings. I am human and expect her to be. But where I realize I won't settle is on their overall commitment to marriage, and the attitude and outlook they bring to it. STBX and I weren't bad people but we definitely lacked some knowledge on how to make an M work. No scorecard, the only differences I see is that I was unwilling to give up and I am willing to accept that I might be wrong. She wasn't as openminded, it was her way or the highway, and I ended up the highway. That might change for her down the road if she learns from life, but not in time for our M. So commitment, humility, and openmindedness are keys to me. And the demonstrated ability to act based on beliefs and character during adversity and not steer by feelings.
This nearly triggered a rant about how it sure seems tough these days, with the breakdown of social tradition coinciding with people's pursuits of their individual happiness...those qualities are not easy to find...but I won't go down this road now. I'll just tickle it and move on.
One thing I'm still learning to accept is that it might not work out anyway. M is so tough, I can be selective as I'd like and I still might end up D again, or in a terrible M, some things are just hard to control. But I can do my part of it, be it taking the time to heal, becoming who I want to be before and in the M, and focusing on myself and my own journey regardless of whether future W is doing what I think is her half. You don't get a dog because of what you expect it will do for you. You get a dog for companionship, to love it, to take care of it. I am starting to think that's a better idea of how to approach a spouse. What they give back is kind of gravy, and not really what your journey is about.
The best part is I'm not concerned about it right now. I am enjoying being single. I CAN'T WAIT to get a bigger place with a pool table. Next July 1. It is a done deal. Nothing will stop me. Oh, yeah, I'll want more room for the kids, etc, etc. But I will have my 9' pool table up. My idea of paradise is the ability to do some drills, play the 10 ball ghost, some straight pool, slow down and shoot a trouble shot for an hour, work on my break, and just listen to music and wrench on my game...that's been half my life, and I miss it terribly...but I play so good, and I think this experience has toughened me up. I think once I start hitting balls again I can get to a level that's more solid than it was before. Not necessarily a better top gear (which is almost impossible), but just steadier, deeper, more consistent, and able to withstand more pressure more of the time. I truly feel my best days are ahead of me, and I am looking forward to testing myself and winning in some big arenas.
Maybe I take a few years this way before I think about a partner. Maybe I decide this is better for me and I stay solo for decades or for the count. Maybe someone really surprises me and leads me to believe that there is a woman out there I could partner with. But I'm not looking, and I feel happier and more at peace than I have...ever? Wow. That's pretty cool. I guess that's my reward for being appreciative of what I have in my life. Now all I need is that pool table...;)
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
You know, these days when I think of marriage I see it as more of a business partnership.
Zues, my M was a business partnership, a good one. It still is. It's not enough. I loved STBX, I still do, but I didn't have a deep emotional connection with him, and although our physical connection was good, it was frequent, it wasn't what I wanted, we never got there after 25 years. Obviously, something was missing for him, too, he criticized me for 20 years and then left. I almost said "and then cheated and left" but truth is, this isn't the first time he was unfaithful, it was just the first time it was so in my face that I admitted it.
I'm not disputing that a M needs to have a good business partnership model, I think a lot of people go the other way, they think that just because they are head over heels in love then it will all work out. I don't believe that for a second, I tried that one also. I know that going forward, I'm looking for both.
Zues, I think your plan sounds great. I need to find my equivalent of a pool table and follow in your foot steps. I can totally picture you in your pool room, music playing, hours passing by as you just do your thing.
Your comment about the "business partnership" made me think of arranged marriages. I don't know the statistics, but I've heard they are more successful than "romantic marriages" so maybe you have a point there. But I do think you need some of both- the shared vision and the emotional connection.
Thanks guys. I have a few more thoughts (not conclusions) on this.
Phou, I've always idealized arranged marriages. Traditions. Social expectation to do your part in your family and community. I think this was the glue that held families together for so long. It seems like when it wasn't a choice of who to partner with, or whether you stuck it out...that's when people decided to appreciate what they had, and make the best of it.
Now, you could argue that it kept people together in low quality relationships. I've tried hard to look at the exaltation of personal happiness and freedom in our culture, and the divorce rate, as a positive- in that it forces people to put together stronger marriages because people simply won't settle and will walk away if they aren't happy. We are all here trying to grow as people in part due to the loss of our M's, a motivation we might not have had if our spouses had stuck it out. So the positive is that maybe this will prompt us to become better people, capable of better relationships. You could almost argue that the divorce rate is a good thing. I don't buy it, but it's not black and white
As for what's possible, two thoughts on why I am afraid of expecting too much. One is that the reason people walk from marriages is because they feel they can do (and deserve) "better". Anymore when I hear people describe the dream relationship they want I tend to assume these are tomorrow's WAS's because it's just not possible. Also, I think maybe being on these forums for 15 months has just convinced me that marriage is impossible in general, and it's only a matter of time before your partner pulls the plug.
My feel is that the majority of M's end in divorce, then you've got those permanently separated, those that resign themselves to cohabiting, and those that stay married and nag and disrespect one another. I've assumed that the best a marriage can be would be a comfortable working partnership, where there are some disappointments, gripes, unfulfilled desires, resentments, irritants, and pain points...but where those are managed, and offset by some positives...and that the result is an overall effective partnership that isn't unbearable for too many years at a time...and that in the middle of that acceptance of mediocrity comes the occasional surprising joy of having a companion through the hardship of life, or comes a moment when you do get a flash of what you desire, or a glimmer of realizing your spouse understands you and cares for you a bit more than you thought. I tend to think that's what's possible, and desiring more is just being unappreciative of what's possible and setting ourselves up for failure. I tend to think in this world we are destined to be lonely, misunderstood, unfulfilled, and suffering...and that joy is the byproduct of accepting this fact and finding meaning in our toil.
Maybe if there were marriage forums where people have these great marriages, with deep emotional connections, fulfilling sex lives, tremendous mutual respect, and spiritual connections...maybe I would believe that this unicorn existed. I'd love to read those forums, to see people that have achieved this, to hear them talk about their partners, to see how they work through the challenges. Because from where I sit it doesn't look achievable. And I think I could learn a lot from those people. Does anyone know of those forums?
This is great conversation. Thanks for participating. I'm trying not to be black and white, and dare myself to do great things in my life, without setting myself up for being unappreciative of what you can get in this life.
And yes, Phou, it is truly my shangri-la to be at a pool table. Play some music, take a shot that is difficult, then break it down, break it down, break it down, until it starts coming easier. In fact, my favorite memory was one particular shot. A long diagonal shot across the 9', bridged from 3 inches off the rail so I was jacked up (elevated cue), trying to make the ball and draw the cueball (backspin) so the cueball came back to where it started. In the beginning I shot the shot from the headstring (the kitchen line). Then I backed it up to the first diamond. Then I practiced from the rail but just stopping the ball, not drawing back. I did 25 shots from each position. Every day. For 3 months. At the end of three months I started hitting the shot right, and getting the cueball to run STRAIGHT back right through where my cuestick followed through. I did it again. Then again. It was like I won the lottery. I was so happy I did it for hours. Then I woke up early the next morning and ran downstairs to see if I could still do it or if it went away. I could still do it. This makes me happy.
Last edited by Zues126; 10/21/1502:37 PM.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues, you almost convinced me to buy a pool table, I can visualize you playing and your excitement is contagious! Although in my house it would probably soon be overtaken by legos. The only thing I have come close to having that passion for is hot yoga, which as I get older has to get less hot because I get dizzy, but I really should get back into it. To work on the postures and every day get a little bit closer to achieving a pose I couldn't do before, that was fun. Not that I can hustle anyone with my yoga moves though, lol!
I think the perfect ideal marriage does not exist anywhere but in movies and our dreams. And if there was a forum devoted to the few that might exist, I think we'd all feel less inspired by it and more hopeless about our own situations. I don't mean us DB'ers, I mean people in general. I think we'd look at it and say "That's not what I have, it must be my spouse's fault, I deserve better". It is human nature. We do that anyway, when comparing ourselves to others without even realizing what other's have or do not have. Pre BD I honestly thought most of my friends were happy. Since then, I have opened up and really talked to the people around me, only to find out that most people have struggles, and the ones who are "happy" are content, not really "happy." People project a certain image, on FaceBook, in casual conversation, just in general, people seem happy and managing and pulled together.
I have talked freely on this forum about my 14 year old daughter. I have no clue how I am going to survive the next few years with her. Her attitude is beyond awful, her stress is out of control and she is verbally abusive. I go on FB and all of my friends post their kids are on honor roll, going to Disney for vacation, kids just won some track meet, etc etc etc. I want to get on there and say "D14 just went to school 3 days in a row! She ate dinner without screaming! We rode in a car together for 30 minutes without having to pull over because of her screaming at me." But I couldn't, and while most of my friends know I struggle with her, they have NO idea the extent.
Same with marriages. Even now, most of my friends know we are struggling. I have a couple of friends who know the details. But most people think we are in counseling and assume that means we are working it out. Most people do not know the depths of my pain, and obviously, I didn't know the depths of H's pain pre-BD and I was married to him. I knew my MIL was in pain and I chose to view that as a combative situation instead of with compassion. And that has come back to bite me in the ass a million times over.
It is easy to assume that "most" people are fine, but I am learning that many, many of us are not. That is one thing this whole experience has taught me, opened my eyes big time to the amount of suffering and struggling that goes on all around me, and made me a much more compassionate and less judgmental person.
Another thing about arranged marriages, I think they are usually within cultures where extended family is so important, so the marriage, yes, is important, but has the support of both sides of the family and the expectation that it will work. At least in my case, I have in laws actively trying to "put me in my place" (yes they have used that term). In our culture the whole responsibility for the M rests on the H and the W and its just them against the world, which is hard. In other cultures, the families come together. Unless I have a misconception about other cultures, that is my impression.
On another topic, Zues, I have looked at your post several times, the one where you posted your mother's letter to her H, and all I can say is wow. That letter has resonated with me, and really opened my eyes to the fact that this is exactly how I think, and how I always have thought. I used to wonder why it is that H has so many complaints about me, and what is wrong with me that I have just as many about him but I don't talk about them? I used to wonder if I was setting the bar too low, or just letting myself be a doormat. Even in MC, H will spend half an hour reciting my faults, and I sit there thinking "I could say the same exact things about him" and then when it i my turn to say anything I just say "I am sorry." I don't go there and week after week I wonder why, I just don't have it in me to recite his faults. Once I read your mother's letter I realized that there is nothing wrong with me, it is my strength. It isn't because I think I don't deserve better, it isn't because I am afraid to lose him. It is because I don't look for weakness in people, and I never expected for him to work on his flaws to solve my problems. Your mother put that so well into words. So thank you for sharing that letter.
You could almost argue that the divorce rate is a good thing. I don't buy it, but it's not black and white
Zues, you should let that sense of humor out more often. I like it.
Photo, several months ago when I was still struggling with "D" being emblazoned like the scarlett letter on my shirt, my IC commented that when some of my friends found out, they might be envious. That was incomprehensible to me, I was sure I'd be shamed and outcast when people found out my M had failed. And then people started talking to me, and it was incredible what's inside marriages that looked happy from the outside. In a way, it make me think my STBX is an even bigger idiot than I thought, because our M was better than those. And in a way, it made me a scared that I could ever find something great for my future. I really don't know anymore, but all I can do at this point is move forward.
Sunny, I love that! "All I can do is move forward." I don't know what is happening anymore, don't know if I care...but really; I can stay stuck with these awful feelings, or begin to move forward. I had this idea I could save H from himself. He doesn't want to be saved, and I need to be worrying about myself.
