This was such a powerfull post I wanted to carry this forward to my next thread
Hi Guys,
Sorry for late answer but been travelling and now struck by cold so a bit tired. or as we used to say in our time ... knackered.
Anyway ... to cut to the chase ... NO I am not p1ssed at G just puzzled, frustrated and sad.
In the good words of a Vulcan friend ... If I were human I would tell G to STFU ... If I were human.
I am puzzled as to why the irrational acts and behaviour contrary to what he is told or out of the blue. Frustrated that whatever is said does not get through even though it is acknowledged, the incessant self motivating new posts. Sad because I was there and see the situation in his R, how his W felt and that without change, real change, he will find himself alone soon.
Change is the essencial process of all existance.
He is like a child. He wants things his way and be in control and when that does not happen he throws emotional tantrums. This is where I think his behaviour is mistaken as abusive. It is in my view hardcore manipulation.
On a positive note, I am happy to see some action is being taken by G. I hope it is the beginning of change and not random acts to be dropped after a while.
Anyway, it is coming to the close of a year and the beginning of a new one. I thought I should share some feelings and though I not dare call it advice as I am lousy at it, i am just good at bashing G grin I would like to share what I have learned, thank the post and members for helping me in the darkest hours. To the newbies and those who will be but do not know it yet I would like to also reach out. Last but not least I hope G will find some of himself in my words as I was G years ago and see his life spinning out of control with the only difference I did not know then what to do about it ...
Here is my Maxatak (from a man's pov) ...
"What helped me besides the great advice here is to not be afraid to speak out. I got the memo after reading Sandi. I believe imho that sometimes it is better to snarl and bark to a WW/WAW than retreat. Be badass. In other words TNS (Take No Sh1t). Close the emotional door in her face until you get respect. Remember that you were her protector her knight in shinning armour. Remind her why she fell in love with you with the only difference now you have no lady whose honour to protect. If she wants you for the job she must first show you that honour. Until then you are freelance for any damsel in distress.
Speaking from personal experience, I was an emotional wimp but thanks to the posts I read of others with the tips and advice given I dragged myself back to the MBR, began to understand the dynamics of our dysfunctional R, understand where I scr3wed up, was scr3wing up and what needed to change. Shortly afterwards some of her stuff got thrown out of the mbr after she spewed and SHE went to sleep on the couch. I never went looking for her to come to bed. I believe I have earned her respect. She knows I love her, a lot, but it takes 2 to work on it before it fades. I have not set any times or deadlines, my heart is in charge of that. Love is one emotion you are never in control of. We still argue over certain issues but they come and go nothing is left in to rot and corrode our inner healing. As Shrek says ... better out than in. With this panorama she has started to kiss me when she leaves and step by step coming closer in bed. I have learned to laugh and not just smile. I have begun to look at her with desire, passion and romance. I have gone from needing her to wanting her. Desiring her. I have discovered the things, small things I loved about her. Silly intimate things than only couples understand from each other.
My only fear is that if the time comes that we take it physical on a higher level. Like Rocky 3 ... eye of the tiger ... just hope she has no appointments the next morning where walking is involved and our S is not at home or has his headphones deafening him. Until then there is still a lot of room for improvement and ground to cover until we are healed if that is the final goal.
I used to overlook the small steps the further things improved. With each improvment my goals and aims grew bigger. Dont make that mistake. If at the beginning you were happy just by her not leaving the room the moment you walked in. Sometime down the line dont get upset because she only gave you 3 hugs instead of 4. Baby steps. We are goal driven. Women are pure emotion. You do not know what she has gone through to get to those 3 so appreciate it and show her you are grateful for receiving 3 when you expected 2.
In the healing process you will also have to make steps, make sure you are giving the 3 hugs as well. so,are you saying here that throughout the divorce busting keep trying to show her love is the not persuit
The best way I could sum it up was looking at my R. If one of us took sick and needed a kidney or a lung, we would both be first on the donor list because we love each other enough to risk our life. However we do not love each other enough to share our life. I think once I grasped that I understood what detaching and GAL is about.
I also learned that if I were to reconcile I had to understand that true love in all its expressons is when I considered her happiness more important than mine. The newbie LBH may say well what about my happiness? Well ... truth is it was during your R until she quit. You just never appreciated it.. This is so true
As for myself I have grown emotionally and to my amazement when I now talk to women .. I now understand them. I get them. I find myself understanding what they are NOT saying. On a number of ocassions I found myself talking to some for hours where they just blurted out their hopes and dreams. During those times I really felt like the gay friend because my intentions were noble but having had my emotional armour ripped off like a plaster I was still hurting and my emotional antenas were picking up on their story. A friend once told me (female) if you can make a woman orgasm she will bring you breakfast in bed. If you connect with a woman, she will be the breakfast. Maybe any ladies here can verify that?
Two special cases I remember ... one of them a divorced woman asked me out after a corporate do and hours of talking and laughing and those moments where they get to play with their hair and laugh opening their eyes wide. I am DB, vulnerable and hating myself for saying no. Just kidding. I told her my situation, that I was focused on my R, had feelings for my W, she was special I was a fool and wanted it to work. That only made it worse. Dont know why.
Another more dangerous one, at a company do where wives were invited I got talking to a girlfriend of a colleague for about 2 hours while he was getting drunk. We had a lot in common and the more we talked, the more we had common interests and the more they seemed mismatched.
I remember one question in particular that threw her off completely. To the point she opened up completely ... what was her dream in life (up until then she was concentrating on her R and BF) ... Her answer showed me she had forgotten about herself and was concerntrating on the R. Much like our W's did at the beginning and just like her BF and us H's took it for granted, thought they were happy with that until BD when they wake up asking where has their life gone.
I gave her a piece of advice, don't go in that tunnel. There are many ways to get to where she wants to go but going through is not as enriching as going over the mountain. She understood and after some more friendly chat with her BF joining once in a while, as we departed and said goodbye, we shook hands and she squeezed my hand, smiled and left.
The funny thing is I understood her as she spoke, I saw some of the LBW in this situation many years ago and for hours we were on the same level. However, just the simple action as we left, left me wondering what did it mean and i realized that no matter how much we think we know our W we will never understand women. Believe me, I was not looking at her as a bed warmer and I have a rule of not getting involved with friends or colleague's exes. Much less partners.
The conclusion I therefore arrived at and is mho that though we will never understand them fully we should never forget to appreciate them.
So this is something that I do not quite understand
Where do i want to go with this? Well as in G's case and most of us LBH here and including those who will be but dont know it yet, talk to your W. Understand she is a person as well with feelings who invested time and herself as a person into this R. Someone who gave up a part of themselves for you. Someone who needs to be cared for and loved like she had done for you for all those years. She is pure emotion and thrives on emotions and needs to know that the person she has handed her heart to has her back.We should never take it as a trophy and hang it on the wall. Being a hitech guy for those of an era much more recent than mine imagine she is your smartphone. She is with you where ever you go. Check up on her every so often to see whats up, protect her, recharge her when she is down, show her you need her and though you live your life she is an active part of it. Push the right buttons and she will do as you wish. She works in ways you do not understand and tbh it is not for you to understand neither as is it not hers to understand you either. Just know that both of you work together and do more when working together than alone.
For those of my era it is quite easy ... flowers, chocolates, dinner, perfume and acknowledging she is always right. Old school.
Oh ... and calling her whenever you are late.
Max are you saying you would do this for her after BD or before ?
As for the posts, when we arrive here emotionally battered and bruised we consider our W the enemy. Sometimes through no fault of our own, others because we betrayed that person who trusted in us. The biggest problem in general is that our "enemy" knows us better than we know ourselves.
They fed, clothed and looked after us for so many years. In short they got to know us, we never got to know them. Now we are lost and with the disadvantage that our W have done their due diligence without realizing it. They have intell on us after all these years and when that is added to a person now motivated on emotional self preservation we are literally f@cked.
As emotionally inferior beings we men have to overcome the retaliatory first strike, assess damages, control situation, build up defences, bootcamping our feelings and emotions for a full shakedown and workout and decide our next move. For most of us we can't without help. We need allies. We need someone to show us the way, someone to lay out a plan. We are not emotional strategists just blood and guts GI's.
Once we have a plan, we will see it through and learn from the experience but here is the critical part, our WW/WAW are to be conquered not destroyed. Our W are to be won over not run over.
After reading a high number of posts there is a generally high number of LBH who acknowledge they messed ad now want back in. The only problem is that they must overcome 3 main issues:
1) They are not prepared 2) It will take a long time 3) There is no guarantee
With the first point I think I explained that and it is clear.
For the second point, with the GF I spoke with, my own W and some other female friends I saw that the investment in the M started many years ago. Once the light burns out, a long long time has passed and a then a new light shines. One of independance. This light they will defend to the death unless we show them that we are willing to help them keep it burning but also share it together. It will take time, a lot of time and then some. There are so many factors to consider that putting a time scale is impossible. How effective our Db is, how receptive they are to our DB, how damaged our R is, etc etc all contribute. The main thing is to know it will take time.
The final point and the hardest to accept at least for me is the No Guarantee. When I first started out I was lost. I too did all the wrong things but knew there had to be a correct or correct"er" way to "fix" this. The BD for me was to read that even after reading books and doing DB there was no guarantee. I could still lose my W.
The questions we ask ourselves and then how we answer them I think reflects our chance of success.
If you question this point, why do all this with no guarantee then you are missing the point and that mentality is the one that got you here in the first place. We must never give to receive. They gave us a lot unconditionally with the hope and trust that we would correspond. We did not.
Our question and starting block should always start with "how" and never "why".
It has always been said we are never in control when we end up here. It is true. We only control our own actions and lives in the hope that they will affect our W but we should understand this may never ocurr.
That is why learning to live as a person and learn about ourselves is fundamental. I told G he needed to sit down and really look hard at himself and see where he messed up in order to untangle the mess.
He and we need to see if our W were right in their assesment and what are we going to do about it. We need to find ourselves. In a break up we lose our W but also ourselves. We are NOT who we think we are. We are not as bad as they make us out to be but not as good as we think we are. G has not done this. His inner sight is to manipulate himself into believing that he is the person his W says he is. We see he is not that person but until he does some soul searching he will never know himself who he truly is, what he is capable of and neither will his W.
I looked in the mirror and did not like what I saw. I knew I needed a change, I thought it was easy. H3ll no. I did so many backslides I ended up moonwalking. However with time I began to change and with still a lot more to go I am seeing the results. I am optimistic as to my reconciliation chances.
If my W did suddenly call it a day I would be heartbroken, not broken. I would be sad not depressed. I would cry not lose control.
All I can say is that I tried to the best of my abilities and failed and accept the emotional consequences.
The positive thing if you can call it that is that I lost a W but found myself. Someone who I WILL have to live with to the end of my days and who thanks to DB now know my boundaries and limitations.
Someone who I can now present to a future W or GF and who I can enjoy being and she enjoy being ... with.
Anyway, please do not follow these phrases as advice or guides or anything similar, just my opinion.and feelings.
In the same way we have learnt that drinking too much gets you p1ssed without having done studies on the subject I have learnt some lessons from life that i would like to share with my cyber brothers and sisters.
I have not posted around much since there are far too many good members here sharing with us already. I am a lousy cheerleader and believe me you would not want to see me in pompoms and miniskirt in your corner rooting for you.
I also think sometimes we encourage too easily when sometimes we should wrist slap (Hi G) or hold off until the actions are meaningful or consistent. I found I needed to be kicked down to want to get up. The harder I was kicked the stronger my will to get back.
When I was wronged, when I was spewed at, when I was hurt by my W I was made stronger, she gave me power. The next time you spew, or initiate an argument and she just sits there being hurt, you are making her stronger, against you.
The next time you walk into the living room, the bedroom, the kitchen angry for whatever reason. Look at her. Imagine 2 scenes. One where you spew and she looks at you powerless and then retaliates. Now imagine you take a STFU smoothie (love that expression) and look at her, upset, hurt and angry and just say something nice or even ILY and walk away. With scene I both of you are hurt as you walk away. In scene II both of you are also hurt but not because of you but because you are. She is not an emotional punching bag.
To some of the members going through painful moments with their W and H these points may sound like W can do no wrong. I have read too many posts to see that so many are in situations which are borderline TV series scripts. Unbelievable. I am not.
W are capable of inflicting severe wounds as well without provocation but i think if anyone were to want to write a letter to their own sex on M and Men a woman should do it. The point here is that if you are DB it means you are taking the lead and doing something about restoring balance to your emotional life and not stuck in the phase of blame.
When you blame others you give up your power to change.
Change is achieveable through actions. Actions are not change. (G this is for you). Giving your W a rose for the first time in a long time is an action. The motive behind this action is the change. You see the action. Your W the motive. Beware the motive behind it. She will sense it.
For those of you who are on the verge of giving up all I can say is DONT, you will know when "giving up" becomes "letting go". "Moving On". You only give up on something you still want. When you no longer want it, that will be the time. Until then fight.
Dont look back wishing you had held her tighter. Longer.
To those intelligent enough to know something is wrong whatever you do always save the last dance for her.
To those trying to find a reason, motivation to continue after so much pain and sadness, if you were to lose her, what kind, loving words about her would you have to say to the new man in her life. Write them down, stare in the mirror and read them out to that man. If he really loves her he will listen.
To those for whom it is too late, my sincerest wishes and hope that you will find someone who will exploit the new you. Who will awaken the sleeping giant and with whom you can spend the rest of the days enjoying the future and not dwelling on the past. Life is a harsh sentence for anyone. Forgive yourself. Forgive them.
F@ck, I just wanted to say a few words and ended up with a friggin lecture. Anyway, sorry about that. Please do not 2x4 or 4x4 me. This is just an old fart trying to be helpful.
G, sorry for hijacking and invading your post. Consider it a kind payback for those friggin posts of yours. Arrrggh.
Peace, Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to All.
Love
Max. _________________________ M:48 W:47 M:25 T:28 S:22 EA: 1 year +/- (STRONG 12/14) PA: W Denies
SHARING HOUSE WIFE WONT ASK FOR S NOR D
Ok so I have read this post it makes sence a lot of sence and I wm hoping that I can change to become the person that I want to become
Throughout my marriage I was controlling and I was manipulitive I would try and control my W and this is something that I am ashamed off, I thought that it was about me not doing enough with her and the kids however it was about my controlling behaviour.
I am a good man I am caring loving however I am insecure and it was the that caused many of the arguments
I love my children and I do not want to loose them I do not want to be apart from them however it is looking me and more likely this is what will happen.
My W is fantastic with our children and I worry that if I live "Alone" and this is how I see it ....live Alone from the best thing that ever happen to me and my children my wife I will not live up to being anywhere close to how good she is with them the way that she interacts with out two year old is absolutely fantastic .
My W thought that I was selfish and that I would always put myself first ahead of her and our children and I did some of the time and she is prepared to share our children fifty fifty when we go into separate houses she will trust me with our children trust me to be the best father and not put my needs above our children's.
Sitting around the house yesterday I had all my family arround me and I felt safe I was surrounded by the people that meant everything to me surrounded by the ones that I love the ones that I would die for .......sitting in a room with the people that you love doing and nothing is very different to sitting in a room doing nothing.
I have tried giving this much thought ...max wrote this ...... Once the light burns out, a long long time has passed and a then a new light shines. One of independance. This light they will defend to the death unless we show them that we are willing to help them keep it burning but also share it together. It will take time, a lot of time and then some. There are so many factors to consider that putting a time scale is impossible. How effective our Db is, how receptive they are to our DB, how damaged our R is, etc etc all contribute. The main thing is to know it will take time.
My W needs to be free do the things that she wants to do I have to support her freedom and hope that she wants to share some of her life with me whilst at the same time build my own independence start to love my self
More to follow,
I have to journal some more
Last edited by ATPeace; 12/25/1507:13 AM.
Me:48 W 41 M:18 T:26 2 D 18 & 4 2 S 17 & 13 Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation D filed 06/17 Separate houses 10/17 D Final 29/12//17.
I think I am starting to understand and I am hoping that 2016 will be a year where I can grow into a better man.
I have to focus on me and becoming a better person more loving spend more time with my children be the best dad Posable.
My W has told me that she will not be changing her mind and as much as I know that this is mainly a script I also know how deeply unhappy she feels right now so for now I have to accept that things are as they are I do not want to be apart from my children or my W but I really do have no control over what happens and when it happens.
I thought I had control over things during the course of my marriage and as max says she gave me her love whilst we w married and I did not aprichated it ....failed to show her...what she meant to me.
I have to let her go live her life the way that she wants to ...she wants to spread her wings and grow and I have two options that I can see ...I can love her and support her and show her that she can still do these thing and I will still support her to do all the things she wants to do or I can give up divorce move to separate houses gal date make new friends and build a new life for me away from W and see my family less
I am not ready to give up on my current life
Yes I will start to get a life and put the focus on me
Speak soon
Ghost
Me:48 W 41 M:18 T:26 2 D 18 & 4 2 S 17 & 13 Bomb: 20/7/2015 in house separation D filed 06/17 Separate houses 10/17 D Final 29/12//17.
In the healing process you will also have to make steps, make sure you are giving the 3 hugs as well.
so,are you saying here that throughout the divorce busting keep trying to show her love is the not persuit
He said "in the healing process". Is your M in the healing process?
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The conclusion I therefore arrived at and is mho that though we will never understand them fully we should never forget to appreciate them.
So this is something that I do not quite understand
You do not have to thoroughly figure out something before you can appreciate it. I don't understand technology, but I enjoy it and appreciate it. Same for people. Women are different from men. They think differently. They are wired differently from men. You will never fully understand every little thing about your W, but you can appreciate the differences.
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]quote]Where do i want to go with this? Well as in G's case and most of us LBH here and including those who will be but dont know it yet, talk to your W. Understand she is a person as well with feelings who invested time and herself as a person into this R. Someone who gave up a part of themselves for you. Someone who needs to be cared for and loved like she had done for you for all those years. She is pure emotion and thrives on emotions and needs to know that the person she has handed her heart to has her back. We should never take it as a trophy and hang it on the wall. Being a hitech guy for those of an era much more recent than mine imagine she is your smartphone. She is with you where ever you go. Check up on her every so often to see whats up, protect her, recharge her when she is down, show her you need her and though you live your life she is an active part of it. Push the right buttons and she will do as you wish. She works in ways you do not understand and tbh it is not for you to understand neither as is it not hers to understand you either. Just know that both of you work together and do more when working together than alone.
For those of my era it is quite easy ... flowers, chocolates, dinner, perfume and acknowledging she is always right. Old school.
Oh ... and calling her whenever you are late.
Max are you saying you would do this for her after BD or before ?
If I am off track, Max can straighten it out. I read this as him telling men what is good relationship advice, and he has learned this from his own personal experience.
Ghost, it is my opinion that the LBS who is facing possible divorce, should never stop DBing as long as they are married. I think you get confused (and probably others do too) b/c you see DBing lasting until your W either tells you or gives you clear signals that she's going to stay in the M. Then everything will be okay and life returns to normal once again. I wonder if you see DBing as being a list of do's and don'ts for a period of time. Frankly, I don't know how you see DBing, b/c I am not sure you ever "got it".
If couples would live their relationship in such a way that it would bust any threat or thought of divorce..........think how the D rate would fall. Unfortunately, we don't live that way. We take our S for granted. We are selfish, self-centered, co-dependent, and lazy. In short, we stop trying. No wonder there are so many divorces!
Over the years, I have seen a lot of men come and go here, and many have a similar mindset as you, Ghost. But b/c they did whatever they did to bust their D, once the M was R, then the those men went right back to the way they were before all the problems began. So, they never "got it".
DB has different phases, so to speak. Maybe that is what throws you and why you ask if it's before or after DBing. IMHO, the LBH has to get himself straightened out....as an individual, and as a man. Then he needs to get respect from his W. And until he gets her respect, nothing else is really going to succeed very well. I think most newcomers spend more time in these two areas longer, b/c they are really tough. Know why? B/c it doesn't require her love!
You see, if your W felt the love, everything would be so much easier, wouldn't it? That is why you start spinning and say, "If she would just .........". But she doesn't, and that means you have to do it alone. Respect does not require love. Where many newcomers miss the boat is trying to win back their W's desire, without aiming for her respect, and it just won't happen in that order. Oh, there may be a few sexual HD women who will have sex a few times, and men think b/c she had sex with him it must mean she loves him......which is incorrect. When a truly desires/loves her H, it always follows the respect she has for him. When a wife loses respect and also loses the desire for her H...........that man has a challenge ahead of him, if he wants her to have it again. However, it is very possible for him to have it.. That's the thing.........it is possible, but it won't happen if you do nothing to earn her respect. Women have to, first, respect their H as a man, before she can desire him as her H. Sorry, but that is how women were made. Remember, women are not wired the same as men. So, don't expect us to be like you.
Anyway, after you top out in these two very challenging areas, then you slowly venture into further realms of the relationship. And, as you do so.........you never neglect these first two areas. You proceed and continue to work on the relationship and all its complexities. You NEVER stop DBing, unless you want to take a chance of getting divorced in the future.
As my wise grandmother told me on her golden anniversary, you never reach a place where you can stop working on it.........if you want a good MR. I was still young and foolishly thought, "After half a century and you still have to work to have a good M"? It's true. You really do!
Now, can you answer that last question you asked, or are you still confused?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
First off, Sandi is right on her supositions. I wanted to get my thoughts across in imaginative ways and she got it.
As for you I told you to not use my post as advice. There is a bit for everyone and if you read some of the posts from people who read it, they understood and acknowledged the parts that affected them. They knew or at least think they know where they stand in the DB process.
Your case is totally different.
I think at this stage metaphors and examples will only confuse you more or worse still, give you ammo to defend some point playing on the words. No more beating around the bush.
You are light yeards from healing. You are light years from anything but crashing and burning some time soon.
All your major posts still say:
1) You made your W unhappy during your M 2) She has told you she wants out 3) You are sad you will not get to see your children 4) Your wife says you do not do enough 5) You know this will happen 6) You have started to do A
I really do not know what more sandi, myself nor anyone else can say to make you understand what you are doing wrong and what you need to change.
DB if you read between the lines is about changing a situation with your S through change in you. You are asking questons about my post which i already told you to NOT take as advice. They are thoughts and you are NOT ready for thoughts.
You should ask questions about the books which I think do raise questions. You should discuss chapters and try and understand the book and what MWD is trying to say. NOT ME.
As sandi said, DB is about working on your marriage and adapting to the situation you find yourself in while you are still married or in a relationship. It tells you how to interact with your S. It does not tell you that looking after your children and washing is the answer. That is called being a father and housekeeper.
For the last time, i will tell you that imho your main focus is still that you spend too much time focused and worried on what your w does and says and hardly anytime on what you do or have to say.
Try for a week to post Zero about your w. Nothing. Just on you and what you did with your kids. No more. Vent and cry here but do not mention her nor repeat the points mentioned above.
Maybe your worst mistake was to fall into in-house separation. had one of you left it would have hurt like hell but then ease away.
Finally, the next time your W criticizes you for spending little time with your children I would tell her to STFU but in a diplomatic way.
Listen to her point and validate it but remind her that you are learning to grow from being a father to being a hero for your son and the first love of your daughter no matter what the costs but in the way you know how. Much the same way you are learning to grow from being a husband to being an independant man. Then turn and walk away and say no more. by no more I MEAN NO MORE.
You really must start stopping her dead in her tracks with her destructive comments but in a respectful and polite way.
Just some personal thoughts G.
Just read the books again and dont post say until you have read them fully. I think you also need a break from here.
