More and more, and less and less...

[Zues126]

It's funny looking back at the old marriage.

There is the reality which is all blurry having been revisited 10,000 times.

There is my emotional view which is that it was some dark carnival with mad house mirrors and evil clowns.

Then there's my gradual understanding of some of the dynamics in play, the dangers that are inherent in relationships, the wrong turns I took. I can see that my XW went through the same experience and suffered at my hands. I can see that there is nothing innately dark about a relationship like there is nothing dark about cooking...but if you don't have the skills and you cut and burn yourself a bunch it will hurt.

Sometimes I have to work myself through this process again when there are triggers that bring me back.

Thanks for listening guys.

[SunnyB]

But, Zues, you aren't speaking for all the WAHs. Mine had an issue with my closet, not our sex life. That was pretty damn fine. I understand this is your experience, but you carry it like a banner sometimes. It's time to put that down.

And what makes you think you aren't being understood? I am pretty sue I get you on this. But not everyone is going to. That's part of the banner carrying, wanting everyone to understand. Learn to be content within your tribe.

I'm at work and not spending a great deal of time selecting the right words and editing. Forgive me if it doesn't sound right, just say so and I'll try again later.

[Zues126]

Ha. Both very good points. I say 'ha' because you make it so clear when you say it.

Thank you Sunny. I'm at work too so I don't have time to share how much I appreciate it.

[trumpet]

Zues,

Keep talking. It seems your working through some regret.

I enjoy your posts. It's cathartic when I post, I hope you feel the same.

Lots of great insights from you.

[Ginger1]

You had mentioned you had children for her and in exchange you wanted your sexual needs met?

I may have interpreted that wrong, forgive me if I did, but I believe both partners should have kids because they both want kids, not to make someone else happy or to get something else in return. I know you love your kids dearly, but I think going into a mindset like this can set you up for huge disappointment when it doesn't quite work that way. Did you and your wife discuss these expectations and reasons for having kids before getting pregnant? or was this this an expectation on your end of how things should be?

My sex life with my ex was not good. He was my first and he was selfish in and out of the bedroom, very critical of me out of the bedroom, and very closed off to talking about sex, he just expected it. I did my "wifely duty" but it was a duty. I thought perhaps I had a low drive. Now that I am emotionally fulfilled and loved and made to feel safe and unjudged(by someone else)it turns out my drive is off the charts (TMI,sorry).

My point being, I think my ex and I had so many uncommunicated and unrealistic expectations, or unrealistic ways of how to achieve our desires, we both failed.

We all start off thinking about how things "should" be when we really have no clue until we are in those life altering situations (such as having kids). I think we also forget how to achieve those things we want. What we think should work is not neccesarily how our partner thinks things should work.

What I am trying in my relationship now, which I notice is making a huge difference is communication. On all levels about everything. I was a poor communicator in my marriage for fear of my ex not agreeing and just leaving. Now, I say what I need, we discuss how we are going to get there. I'm not perfect at it yet, but I can see what a difference it makes.

[Zues126]

Yes, when I had children I had lots of unvoiced expectations. I didn't communicate them because I just thought it was self-evident. I thought it was obvious that two people would continue to take care of each other, and stay together through thick and thin.

I have learned differently. Some of my expectations were unrealistic. Others are absolutely realistic, and not everyone is a realistic person.

In the end change is possible for all of us. My expectations may have changed. My ability to care for my partner. Her understanding of my needs. Etc. But none of it has a chance if the marriage is destroyed. To me this is the most tragic part.

I'm intrigued by what you say about communication. It's interesting to think a relationship would be possible in any form. I can't see it from here, but if I decide to plunge ahead someday I'll make sure to address these issues head on instead of closing my eyes and crossing my fingers.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I'm not suggesting this or recommending it....just some food for thought or discussion but what if you waited even longer to date seriously and/or remarry?

I think the one year rule you discussed and read about it a good start because it's something tried and true that it likely easier to get a betrayed husband (in particular) to grab onto and hold fast too INSTEAD of instinctually running out there and acting like the stereotypically horny drunk philandering PUA OR alternatively, running out and marrying the first girl that shows interest in him to prove to his ex-wife and family that he is indeed worthy of love.

There are other marriage counselors and professionals that feel you should stay single for 1 year for every 5 years of marriage so if you were married 15 years, that would mean deliberately giving yourself a 3 year pressure free window of individual recovery.

Personally, I feel it depends on the situation. Truly one year is absolutely a minimum. Way to many issues that first year from dating to early often destroys any last vestiges of any chance at recovery (because the betrayed spouse isn't interested anymore) to it's completely unfair to the person you date because you simply aren't ready or healthy enough to date as an individual. In truth, sad recently divorced men at super attractive to lonely and unstable women. IMO, these relationships built upon pain and hurt rarely work out.

In your situation Zues, for the limited amount I've seen on just this thread, I read that your wife is bringing around OM1, OM2....OM12 around the children. I read that your children are as young as 4 years old. I empathize for them and for you having to endure that. Because of your wife's behavior, maybe it would be best for your children if you waited even longer than 1 year. Again, I'm not saying you have to ethically or morally wait even 1 year but your children have a mother that is and will likely continue for years to prioritize her happiness over her children's well being and happiness. Wouldn't it be great for your kids if they had a father that did (and modeled) something different? That THEY were your priority OVER your happiness and a parade of girlfriends (or a step mom). Not that you can't be happy and single. This might also include dating when you don't have custody but just keeping that part of your life private and separate. How long you maintain such will depend on the facts and circumstances of all your relationships - but probably the youngest daughter being the most important (meaning - if your youngest was already 14 - well by the time they are 17-18 and almost off to college they pretty much are in their own world and would WANT you to date and not focus so much attention on them). Your youngest is 4 - if your were her attorney arguing on her behalf about whether you should date or focus on her - what do you think the attorney would argue? Then - revisit that fictional attorney each year and maybe when the kids is in middle school openly dating by you won't be an issue anymore or she's super mature and begging you to date by age 8. Also, if you date behind the scenes and become wholly convinced that your "girlfriend" is the one and making it legitimate (marrying her) becomes a priority.....THEN, maybe you short cut the process while carefully modeling to your children appropriate dating/courting/engagment/marriage behavior (which, again, is particularly important in your situation since your wife ISN'T modeling such AND you can see how your (and societies) attitudes about relationships and marriages led to you marrying a woman who's priority wasn't her family and children over her own happiness.

I'm certainly not telling you how to live. Just some food to chew on. I doubt I could have done what I'm discussing had I divorced. I was a player before I married the hottest girl in town and I probably would have reverted rather than repented had I ended up divorced over a decade ago.

Another side issue - I have seen MANY miraculous marital recoveries years after a divorce. Rarely do they initially come back fully repentant and remorseful. That usually involves a process and I believe, strong male leadership. But getting involved with other women usually nips any chance of that happening in the bud. I'm not suggesting you hold out on other woman until some date that you are done with your ex-wife. You can be done and like you said in a post above that door can be reopened. It can't be if your engaged or remarried to someone else.

Another issue - child predators target women like your wife with young children. If you are off dating and focusing on your own happiness you might miss some signs here and there that your children are suffering or being abused. You might not - of course, but between a job, hobbies and being a dad managing his own household and caring for children 50% of the time, things are more likely to get by you if you have a girlfriend in the mix. Then add in that girlfriends may act one way but if and when you marry them you are taking a vow to forsake them above all others - which includes your children. What if you great girlfriend becomes a evil step mom??? Teenage girls (which your 4 year old will become) have difficulty enough with their own mothers let alone mixing in a step mom. You better be sure everyone is on board before you go marrying someone - which is why waiting until they are much older MIGHT be the best practice.

In the end - YOU MATTER and a healthy happy father is what's ultimately best for you and your children. But being a divorced father of a 4 year old little girl is different than being a divorced father of adult children or even teenage children.


Final thought - you started this thread titling it basically - "I believe in God - more and more and less and less.". As your struggle with your losses and coming to grips with your new identity as a divorced man and divorced father, please realize that He is still there with you. You remain His child with all the capabilities, strengths and weaknesses that you ever had. You can find who you are and have always been in Him. Let His light wash over and vanquish the darkness you are feeling. You've been very wise so far to realize the answers you seek for you identity don't rest in the arms of loose women willing to jump in bed with a divorcing/recently divorced man. You've also straightened up some other important priorities in your life (like being an involved 50% parent/father). Perhaps your continuing uncomfortableness is God knocking on your door wanting more of a priority in Him out of you? It wouldn't hurt your children to see one of their parents also lead and model a more Godly life and existence so that, should the events and circumstances of their lives (and their children's lives) take a dark turn - they will know to lean on and into Him to figure out who they are and how they survive. Life for the hope that is in Him such that your children have hope also.

I'm getting a bit discursive now so I'll wrap this up. I remember vividly looking in on my children sleeping while my wife was running around wayward and wondering was what to become of us and them. I am so grateful that God saw to it that my wife discovered the gift of repentance and that I discovered that also in our journey toward marital and individual recovery. I haven't been where you are....but I imagined it and it terrified me. Thank you for being here healthily sharing your struggles (instead of at a bar (pool hall - lol) drowning them in drunkenness and shallow carousing).

[Zues126]

Lots there GB, thanks for the post.

I agree. I mentioned the one year rule for the others. I agree that is an absolute minimum. Right now my kids need me. I can't imagine being distracted during this transitional time. Likewise I'm still grieving my M. My IC told me it was a 3-5 year journey, and anyone that says it's less than that is kidding themselves and in denial. Well, I'm 18 months from BD and just finalized D, so I'm looking at more than a year to reach the shallow end of his benchmark.

I really like your point about how people sometimes date to prove things to their ex, or to themselves. I know that I'm not emotionally healed or completely detached, because I know how much my marital status still flickers across my mind. I still can't put words to exactly why rebounding is so destructive when I try to caution others, but for me I know there are still forces acting on me, and I need to let them dissipate before anything else.

I really want to be ok on my own. I never really was before. I always needed someone to validate me, or for me to convince myself I was good enough to be worthy of love. I'm a little more solid these days, and want to be ok on my own.

And of course I need time to sort through the breakdown, and really own my part. I know all newcomers thing they have had big breakthroughs in the first 30-90 days, that is because they are in the 'bargaining' stage of grieving, they want to believe they have it all figured out so they can show that to their WAS and save their marriage. What I've found is that even 18 months in I'm still grieving the loss of the marriage, and all of the anger, blame, sadness, etc...it all gets in the way of my personal growth. So part of me feels like my journey hasn't even really begun to becoming the person I want to be in the future. I'm just starting to get to a place where I can truly work on me for me. Or maybe this has happened in steps, and if so I still have several steps to go. That's how I feel.

Finally...I still can't even picture trusting a woman right now. I can picture having a fling. Having some fun. Making each other feel special or getting some endorphins. But I can't really see wanting to build a life with a woman. Wow. Just writing it seems extremely premature.

Right now I can't see the road in front of me, and I'm ok with that. The longer I've tried to DB the less worried I am about the future, or the past. I am really living in the day, enjoying my children, my work, my friends, my hobbies. I know if I do the right things good things will come my way, and I know that if I appreciate what I've been given I'll always be ok. I've gotten through the worst loss imaginable and I'm right here, with children that love me, friends that support me, and in the end it's all good. Thanks GB.

[Zues126]

Nothing earth shattering to report, but I feel like posting and sharing one funny story. When I watch shows with the kids on Netflix we turn off all the lights in the room, so it's pitch black in the evening (it gets dark at like 4PM in MN). When Netflix is loading the screen is black for like 10 seconds, then all of a sudden it goes to absolute white screen with NETFLIX in big red letters, and it's blinding on my big screen. My kids always cry in surprise because it's so obnoxious and jarring. I joked once and said "It's like 'I'm in a cave, I'm in a cave, I'm in a cave, I'm STARING AT THE SUN.'" They thought it was absolutely hilarious, and I guess I do too. So now, every night when we fire up the show, they start chanting 'I'm in a cave, I'm in a cave...'. No matter what's going on in my day it makes me so happy. Absolutely priceless.

So that was my weekend. Took the kids to the science museum Saturday. I'm reading them Lord of the Rings which is just awesome. At one point I had almost resigned myself to the idea of them growing up without knowing the pleasure of reading, but I am doing battle on that and little by little we are working through some cool stories, and funny how now they see 'Gollum' references everywhere, just tonight we saw a cartoon that was a spoof on the Fellowship of the Ring and they were super excited they knew what it was referring to. Today I had a friend and his woman and new baby come over and we all hung out for a bit, my daughters loved playing with his baby. And just chilled a bit with the family.

They are talking more and more about this new man who's at mom's place a lot. I don't know I can call him OM anymore as he wasn't the first (or second or third or fourth lol) guy after BD, and as we are now divorced and she is introducing him to our children I guess he's just mom's boyfriend. Anyway, kids talk about him a lot. I don't really know what to do beyond mostly just shrugging and changing the subject (I know I talked to them about their feelings once before on this, but I don't know it is always coming from a place of pain, nor do I want to make a mountain out of a molehill or get them sad about something they can't change). But my guess it's just them sharing their life, and he's a part of it now. And the cool part is it doesn't bother me. I don't feel threatened by this man in any way. I'm not not threatened because I feel better than him, or that I think he's scum...I just don't feel I'm in competition in any way, shape or form. It has nothing to do with me.

I feel the same about XW. You all know me well enough to know I don't believe in divorce, but I'll tell you, I get why she left the marriage we had, and it's nice to not be fighting anymore, and it's nice to be able to live my life and feel good about who I am and enjoy my time. This isn't what I chose, but I won't deny appreciating the benefits that come from being single, even if I'm prepared to give them up again down the road (not to say I won't do a better job maintaining my own happiness next time).

I guess the one sort of deep thought I have had is that I am less and less judgmental of XW. For a while I really saw her as a terrible person, the 'murderer of my wife' as I used to say. I still think this is the case to some extent, but the heat behind those thoughts is cooling off. It doesn't serve me to carry anger in my heart, not to co-parent, not for myself, not for my children. And I can see that really she's just a good woman that doesn't have the same conviction towards marriage that I do, and within that lens she hasn't done anything that wrong. No, I don't agree, I don't want part of it, I want nothing to do with other people that can go along with that...but she's not a terrible person, just someone with different beliefs that I have that's impacted my family. It's been nice to see this dim down as time has passed.

And it's more the person I want to be. I don't want to be the angry/judgmental guy. And I can tell you, looking at the women on this forum, those that don't bash their H's seem so attractive. Make no mistake, I cut a lot of slack to those that do, because this stuff is so hard. But if you can come out the other side of this and know you didn't betray your spouse or bad mouth them or bus drive them even when they betrayed you and bus drove you...that is something really special. I wasn't able to do that the way I would have liked, but I am doing my best to do so now. She's not a horrible person, she's a good mom, and I'm glad my kids are safe with her and she loves them and will continue to be a great parent.

As for me, I'm playing pool tournaments the next 5 weekends I don't have my children, and playing this pool league that started last wednesday (every other wed). I'm not playing well, but I'm not far off from playing well, and I love the game. It will be fun. And I can't wait until my lease is up in summer and I can move into a bigger place and get my pool table set up again!

Dropping the kids off in the AM then working a little bit, then back at it hard Tuesday. Gotta pay for this all. Work's been a struggle but I'm facing it one day at a time. It can't stay hard forever.

Wishing you all great things this week. Take care!

[ARose]

Zues, thank you for updating, I love the story about your kids and "I'm in a cave! I'm in a cave!" For me, its those fun little moments with the kids that really bring me out of myself, that make me realize there is so much to be grateful for. Which is really what it all comes down to, isn't it? We struggle so much in this world with what we want, what we think we deserve, what we think we "should have" or what we have lost. And meanwhile our children know better, they know how to find the joy in the little things, to be present, to love fully. I am glad you are finding joy with your children, and wish you continued sense of peace and contentment. You really should write a book.