More and more, and less and less...

[JellyB]

I was completely inexperienced in every aspect of male/female relationships Zues and it played in some way to the failure of my relationships with two very good men.

I get the being "by myself", it is great place to consolidate learning and a freedom to know yourself. Don't wait too long here Zues, there's a girl out there who wishes you'd show up already.

Personally I have been waiting a lifetime.

[Zues126]

Good reminder Fo.

I was in consumer lending for a lot of years. Loans. Credit reports. Underwriting. I was always on the sales end, but I know a ton about credit.

In the world of credit, recency is a big factor. A late payment a month ago is worse than a bankruptcy five years ago. It makes sense, history is history, what's going on lately is a better indicator of the current situation.

Still, there is a story behind the history. For example, the words you just spoke tell a different story than someone else might with a similar history. Similarly, I was asked recently by a friend if I'd ever consider taking XW back if she came around. I told them it would be more like an underwriting decision than an emotional one. What was the story? If it was about D being hard and wanting an easier life, run! If the story was one of remorse, regret, growth, discoveries...who the heck knows? I don't see that happening, but the point is that it's all about context.

So good point. Maybe I am just creating impossible standards so I can hide from people.

Arg. I'll deal with it all another time...

[Zues126]

I was completely inexperienced in every aspect of male/female relationships Zues and it played in some way to the failure of my relationships with two very good men.

Very sweet JB. It's tricky, I get that there are relationship skills that are needed...I guess in my idealistic mind a couple would stay together during those awkward years before those skills were developed, then appreciate each other during the following years knowing how much went in to getting the relationship to that point. The idea of bailing on someone because they aren't developed, well, it's simply atrocious to me. That's why I am so hard on the LBS's that are hard on their WAS's (that haven't cheated, hit, or finalized a divorce). I would rather have clumsy and well intended and committed than skilled in the making of great temporary relationships...

[JellyB]

Oh I can still do clumsy and well intended, in fact it should be a headline on any dating profile I write.

[Tyler12]

Reading your posts helps a lot. It shows me people have been throug or are going through similar thins and come out the other side a better person.
That's what we all want in the end. To be a better person for yourself

[JulieH]

You also have to remember the dynamics that children bring into a relationship. Regardless of all the premarital advice given, Many couples simply do not Have the relationship skills necessary to get through the hardships of raising young kids. I know very few if any, couples with small children that are happy. (The only happy one I actually know are in their 2nd marriages) To be honest, I think it just takes a level of commitment and the understanding that you just have to be patient while the kids are young and then things will get better. I don't think this was clearly spelled out to us or perhaps it was and we didn't listen,

I remember the pastor trying to talk to us during the premarital sessions and me thinking to myself "husband and I have been together for years. We've been through a lot together and I'm not worried". Whoa was I wrong.

I actually wish I had more experience with relationships before marrying my husband. My only real experience prior to him was a pretty dysfunctional one.

I think when you have less experience, the loss is harder as well. It almost feels like an elective death.

[Zues126]

Thanks for posting Julie. I'm going to react now on one of my tirades.

To be honest, I think it just takes a level of commitment and the understanding that you just have to be patient while the kids are young and then things will get better.

I got angry reading this. This just triggers so much for me. To me this is code for "Husbands need to understand that sex will have to take a back burner for 5-10+ years, and not get so bent out of shape". That's not what you said. That's what XW said, so that's what I read when I see this. Never mind it's the 5-10 years when our sex drives are the highest. We'll wait until after the kids move out and her sex drive spikes and she's in the mood, then if I'm meeting all of her needs maybe we'll find the time...

That's not ok. I went in thinking that if I gave my W what she wanted (children, the ability to stay home and raise them), she would reciprocate with what I wanted. I didn't want kids for me, they were for her. I literally made a lifelong commitment to both her, and my children, and to working a million hours a week to provide for all of them...all because I thought I'd get in exchange a wife that loved me and show me that by meeting my one bloody set of needs. Meanwhile she can neglect me during our marriage and never touch me again once she files, but the children are hers forever and I have to continue to work my tail off and support her for 18 more years. This may seem extreme, but I hope the ladies understand how used and hustled men feel when they get tossed aside after children.

If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have had children. Or only with a woman that proved to me that I would always be first. I know this is how nature continues. And to be fair it's done by women who have no clue that we are different animals, and that we need sex like they want babies. But still, soul crushing torture inflicted for years is real whether it was intended or not.

I know, I know, it happens the other way around. Fo, Painter, all the higher drive spouses...and I'm sure there are women who have children because the men want them, and they resent their spouse who uses them for the children the way I feel.

Bottom line, I agree that marriage gets hard with kids, for sure. But I was just compelled to restate my 'no excuses' standpoint very, very, very loudly because while I wouldn't never left my XW and would never have cheated, that outlook is so destructive I can't find words.

That's ok. I'm glad I have my children now. And I am no longer tied to a woman that I can't trust with myself. It's all going to be ok.

All of this said I believe I missed the main point of your post, which is that it gets tough, and people need to be ready for a level of difficulty they aren't really braced for. Now that I've spewed my reaction out I can agree with all of that. Anything other than long stretches with no sex and I can be on board with...

PS- another reason I'm nowhere near ready to date. Still way too much resentment to work through.

[SunnyB]

Zues, woah there.....and here's where I had a response typed out and decided to delete it. Maybe I'll try again after work. Have a good day.

[Zues126]

Thank you sunny. I was wounded pretty deeply in my R.

I am responsible for that as well, was immature in my own ways, had nice guy covert contracts, poor behavior that contributed to the breakdown of the marriage, did my share of trying to control XW's behavior. Had I been a stronger man and a stronger husband there is no doubt XW would've responded differently.

What I am talking about above is how it FEELS. That is it. This isn't the narrative I choose to live my life. I don't cling to a victim role. I don't walk around with poison in my heart every day. I don't think I have the male/female dynamic solved.

But I definitely have a powerful emotional reaction to that statement. And it's probably a good thing I'm being honest about my anger. I went through something I will NEVER allow myself to go through again, my anger comes from being very hurt, and it gives me the strength I need do what I need to do to protect myself from that again. Right now that protection means not having anything to do with another woman. The pain was too great, I'd rather err on the side of over-correcting and just being single for the count. I'm sure in the future the wounds will heal by time, continued posting, learning to be a better man so I feel I could face that situation again more prepared.

But right now I still see red when I hear stuff like that. I share it both because it is my journey, and because I sometimes feel like I am speaking for the WAH's. And I know I still have the desire to be understood or validated, but more and more I am convinced it's not possible. Fo made a comment about how her WAH repeated word for word what she said at IC, then twisted it in his memory anyway. I just think things look so differently through my eyes that anyone I talk with will have to placate me, pat my knee, tell me they understand, and then secretly decide how they are going to manage around my craziness. Well, I have no desire to have people in my life that think I'm crazy. XW can diagnose me all she wants. Maybe after death there's a place where we can see the whole picture and she'll be like 'son of a gun, from where he was I would feel the exact same thing, only much more strongly than I ever could've imagined him feeling!' I'm not holding my breath...

[JulieH]

Hey zues

Wasn't trying to insight. Just trying to discuss, how no matter who you marry, a virgin or an experienced woman, life altering changes do occur within the marriage and Unfortunatly no real way to predict who will remain committed and who will not. Does not have to just be children. Taking care of aging parents (might even be harder when one has Alzheimer's), dealing with death, job loss, a couple of posters on here were battling cancer when their spouses left.

All we have control of going forwards is ourselves. And hopefully that will be enough to change the dynamics.

I never ever thought my husband was type to walk away. I am not a bad judge of character or at least I didn't think I was. The lack of loyalty troubles me greatly and I can't help but think, what happens when another life altering change occurs. I already know he is not the type to stay committed. So like you, I am deeply wounded and resentful. I get the anger.

But are you angry at the relationship dynamic or how she left? Personally, I am more angry at the fact that husband left. Looking back we both made a lot of selfish decisions and neglected each other and we both have tons of reasons..Youth, sleep deprivation, lack of knowledge, work stresses, egos, flawed families of our own. We are human and simply didn't know what to do or how to communicate. I am more angry because he broke our commitment of for better or for worse.

Another question, is physically packing up and walking away any different from emotionally or mentally doing so? I don't really know. Husband can make argument that I abandoned him after kids and I can make argument that he did the same after. I think the answer might have to do with level of intention. I did not intentionally neglect him with kids, he did not intentionally neglect me with work. But the physical abandonment was intentional.