More and more, and less and less...

[JellyB]

Zues, just read your post on IP thread. You really are very good at communicating to the LBW. You are up there with Sandi's work with the LBH. I know there has a been a lot of pain to get the wisdom and empathy you have. I feel lucky that I get to witness and be privy to what you have to offer people at their most vulnerable. While there was a loss in your life from your D. The gain was ours.

Take care Zues. Much love your friend JellyB xxx

[SunnyB]

Finally...I still can't even picture trusting a woman right now. I can picture having a fling. Having some fun. Making each other feel special or getting some endorphins.

Zues, I'm by no means encouraging you to have a fling, but I'm just a little shocked you said that. You've been so adamant about it, just for you to say it seems like a step forward. And that's what I've wanted for you all along, for you to open yourself to another woman, and realize she might not be The One and be at peace with that. Have a good time, learn things about yourself, learn how to treat a good woman. And move on when the time is right if that's what needs to happen. Let me know when you are taking applications.

[Ginger1]

We often assume other people in our lives, especially the ones we care deeply for know what to do to keep a relationship together. We assume they know what they need. It seems to make so much sense in our own heads, we don't know how that other person can't see it. What they view as work and understanding may not be what we view as the same. Everyone's perception is different and no one's is wrong or right. I wish as a young woman, I would have really not denied that my ex and I saw what marriage and partnership really is. We saw it completely differently and that just didn't work. We rarely communicated our values and beliefs.

As far as future relationships, I have dated casually in the last 8 years until my current BF. For the first few years it was a personal choice not to have a real relationship as I was building a life on my own, my daughter was a baby/toddler at that time, and it just wasn't right for me. Then I really just didn't find the right guys and I was really busy. I'm glad it is now I am opening the door for a healthy relationship. It has challenges as any relationship does, but I never thought in my lifetime I would get to experience something like this. I'm in the right place for a healthy adult relationship now and my daughter is in a good place to introduce someone new (she adores him and his daughter, I am lucky for that). But I am extremely mindful in this one of keeping communication open and staying realistic, and losing the fear of getting left if I don't always agree and see things differently. Honestly, I work closely with my IC mainly to be sure I am doing right by my daughter and right by myself through this relationship. Your time will come one day and you will know when it is. It may seem far of now, and or it may seem like it might not be something you will want. But you won't know until you get there.

I think how you speak now of your ex is a big step for you. You are dropping the animosity towards her wrongdoing. It took me much longer to do so, as I was dealing with the affair and remarriage and it kicked my butt. No excuse, but I am glad I finally came to that point. I have forgiven him and his OW/W. All that matters is the welfare of my child. I used to argue that if they cared, they wouldn't have done what they did. But I had to let that go because it cannot be undone. They both care for my daughter and as long as my daughter is loved it's all good now.

I used to dredge up how I was done wrong all the time. How there is no excuse for it. I must say, I am so much lighter now that I let that go. You will surely feel that now too.

[Zues126]

Finally...I still can't even picture trusting a woman right now. I can picture having a fling. Having some fun. Making each other feel special or getting some endorphins.

Zues, I'm by no means encouraging you to have a fling, but I'm just a little shocked you said that. You've been so adamant about it, just for you to say it seems like a step forward. And that's what I've wanted for you all along, for you to open yourself to another woman, and realize she might not be The One and be at peace with that. Have a good time, learn things about yourself, learn how to treat a good woman. And move on when the time is right if that's what needs to happen. Let me know when you are taking applications.

Oh no Sunny. I think I let you down. When I said this was all I could picture, it was more like a sign that I was a long way off as none of this would interest me. You're right, I have been adamant about it. For me the idea of being anything less than all in is extremely distasteful. And I can see that might not be a good thing.

I have struggled with boundaries in my life. I tend to be very introverted, and while I'm not exactly guarded, I don't let many people into my inner circle. I am the guy with few friends but those I have are practically life partners. The idea of connecting with a woman for any reason short of this is hard for me to grasp. It feels repulsive, like I couldn't focus on the 'good' because all I would be able to see would be the gap between that and what I really want.

Maybe this is a problem and maybe it's just me. I don't know. What do you all think? Is this a problem? And if so, what does it reflect? How do I address it? The idea of just going out and dating doesn't seem like the answer because that seems like the symptom of something bigger, and I wouldn't be able to do that without making serious shifts to the root of where this comes from.

Personally I don't feel it is a problem. I feel most other people feel more superficial to me than I'd like, and I don't feel safe with most others, and I'm happy keeping to myself because of it. I think there is room for us to feel differently. I think it's just who I am...but I'm openminded on exploring this. Have other people felt this way for most of their lives, then grown and felt differently? What was the change? Is there harm that is being done by feeling this way?

[Zues126]

We often assume other people in our lives, especially the ones we care deeply for know what to do to keep a relationship together. We assume they know what they need. It seems to make so much sense in our own heads, we don't know how that other person can't see it. What they view as work and understanding may not be what we view as the same. Everyone's perception is different and no one's is wrong or right. I wish as a young woman, I would have really not denied that my ex and I saw what marriage and partnership really is. We saw it completely differently and that just didn't work. We rarely communicated our values and beliefs.

As far as future relationships, I have dated casually in the last 8 years until my current BF. For the first few years it was a personal choice not to have a real relationship as I was building a life on my own, my daughter was a baby/toddler at that time, and it just wasn't right for me. Then I really just didn't find the right guys and I was really busy. I'm glad it is now I am opening the door for a healthy relationship. It has challenges as any relationship does, but I never thought in my lifetime I would get to experience something like this. I'm in the right place for a healthy adult relationship now and my daughter is in a good place to introduce someone new (she adores him and his daughter, I am lucky for that). But I am extremely mindful in this one of keeping communication open and staying realistic, and losing the fear of getting left if I don't always agree and see things differently. Honestly, I work closely with my IC mainly to be sure I am doing right by my daughter and right by myself through this relationship. Your time will come one day and you will know when it is. It may seem far of now, and or it may seem like it might not be something you will want. But you won't know until you get there.

I think how you speak now of your ex is a big step for you. You are dropping the animosity towards her wrongdoing. It took me much longer to do so, as I was dealing with the affair and remarriage and it kicked my butt. No excuse, but I am glad I finally came to that point. I have forgiven him and his OW/W. All that matters is the welfare of my child. I used to argue that if they cared, they wouldn't have done what they did. But I had to let that go because it cannot be undone. They both care for my daughter and as long as my daughter is loved it's all good now.

I used to dredge up how I was done wrong all the time. How there is no excuse for it. I must say, I am so much lighter now that I let that go. You will surely feel that now too.

Thanks Ginger. I can relate to much of this.

There is definitely no excuse for some of what was done. But in the end we can't turn back the hands of time. We get to decide what we want to do with what's left to us. I'm not completely unencumbered by those feelings of disgust, but they are lessening, and I'm having more moments of peace. I think about how rarely I think of my first GF (who also cheated and left me) and her OM. They just aren't part of my life in any way. I don't know that the mother of my kids will ever recede to that level, but emotionally she may. Particularly as years pass and I become a different person than I was in our marriage.

For now I'm quite content to enjoy what's in front of me. I don't want anything different than it is right now. Yes, I'd like a bigger house for my kids and my pool table, and I'd like to be further along at work so it gets easier, and I look forward to 50% time with my kids starting in June...but for today, I'm perfectly content knowing those things are all coming and I'm doing fine.

[Ginger1]

I married my first boyfriend. When he left, I couldn't see anyone else ever in my life. Or dating. Oh god no, not dating. I still maintain I am a relationship type of girl, but I did date casually. I am an introverted extrovert. I am outgoing, I enjoy people, conversation, and human interaction. I do need my alone time to recharge though.

it is not distasteful to just date as long as you are honest with who you are dating and they don't want something serious and you are just stringing them along.

As far as the superficial thing..... yes, most people are superficial when you are getting to know them. People are not going to open up there inner most thoughts and bare their souls the first few times you hang out. It really shouldn't be that either, IMHO. Shooting pool with someone, going to eat a meal you both enjoy, seeing a movie or a band you both like, is superficial, but could be fun, and is what leads to the deeper stuff. This goes for both girls you date and guys you are friends with. For example, you are a very deep person. Definitely not superficial. But are you this deep with people you just met in person? I would imagine it takes time and going through the superficial layers of the onion to get to the inside of it all.

Just a different perspective.

[Zues126]

I married my first boyfriend. When he left, I couldn't see anyone else ever in my life. Or dating. Oh god no, not dating. I still maintain I am a relationship type of girl, but I did date casually. I am an introverted extrovert. I am outgoing, I enjoy people, conversation, and human interaction. I do need my alone time to recharge though.

it is not distasteful to just date as long as you are honest with who you are dating and they don't want something serious and you are just stringing them along.

As far as the superficial thing..... yes, most people are superficial when you are getting to know them. People are not going to open up there inner most thoughts and bare their souls the first few times you hang out. It really shouldn't be that either, IMHO. Shooting pool with someone, going to eat a meal you both enjoy, seeing a movie or a band you both like, is superficial, but could be fun, and is what leads to the deeper stuff. This goes for both girls you date and guys you are friends with. For example, you are a very deep person. Definitely not superficial. But are you this deep with people you just met in person? I would imagine it takes time and going through the superficial layers of the onion to get to the inside of it all.

Just a different perspective.

I have been mulling this a bit Ginger. I'm not bothered by it. I definitely feel the way you did in your first paragraph, dating doesn't seem in the cards for me. As for being open with other people, you bring up a good point. I think the problem is that I am, I don't know if the word is 'deep' but maybe, with other people. It's like I only have one gear, this is who I am. But maybe that freaks people out because they don't know me well enough to desire that type of connection with me.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm completely backwards socially. I'm not like some needy person walking around and trying to bare my heart to people handing me food at a drive through. This is how it came across and that's not it at all. I guess I would maybe say I just crave a deeper and more real connection with people than what most people give.

Anymore I just think that most people are complete bull$hit. I've really been freaked out lately by how many people on this board consider divorce a reasonable option. And how many people are looking for their next partner so soon. And how many people are ok with something less than a committed relationship. I'm not saying they're all wrong. But when I say it, I don't feel I'm crazy either for saying that there is something important and special about having one relationship, that it is irreplaceable, and that when the irreplaceable is lost it takes a long time to process and you should take that time, and then, maybe, someday when I'm ready to build a second relationship, I want that one to be irreplaceable as well.

I like JB's post on JH's thread about neediness during dating. I'll give this some thought too. Right now though I am absolutely fine with who I am, how I am, and everything that goes with it. I'm a little different than most other people, but I'm ok with that, and everyone is in their own way. And if I never talk to another woman again because I'm in a protective shell then I'll hit some pool balls, solve some chess problems (always white to play...), who knows, maybe I'll write that book someday. It's all good. But I'm not worried, because it will either all work out or I'll naturally change over the next 5 years when the timing is right.

Thanks all. Wishing you all well from DB land.

[Fogg]

Zues, you're not the only one who's concerned with how easily D seems to be accepted along with moving onto a new relationship. I know many people have their own opinions on this and I try to respect them but I just have that feeling reading about it. I can't comprehend how someone who says they are in a committed relationship can move onto a new partner so easily. That's the WAS first but also the LBS. When I see a LBS say they are detached enough to begin dating only a few months after BD, I just think.....really??

The only explanation I can ever come up with is they're in denial and moving onto what feels good to avoid the pain or the feelings weren't that strong to begin with. Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but I just can't process why and how that's possible. I see how a new relationship would feel good but I recognize what it would mean for me. I know I might not be strong enough to resist a woman who was legitimately interested and pursuing me, maybe I would give into the feel good but I still know I would have feeling a for W and not finished my grieving yet.

When I first got into IC he told me it would be a good 2-3 years to move on from this, maybe even longer. I've read elsewhere similiar time frames and the longer the M was the longer that process is. I think that's why the WS usually ends up regretting their actions later in life, they weren't ready for a new R combined with the destruction they caused.

Again, maybe I'm just wrong and people are ready to D and start a new R after a couple months. It's certainly their right to live their life any way they please, so long as they aren't hurting another person. Personally, I just feel like the commitment we made with our vows deserves us to stay true to them more than most do regardless of what the WAS is doing. I have a big issue with trying to justify my actions, like dating, just because W might be.

[Ginger1]

I understand you have one gear, Zeus. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you have a hard time giving people a chance who don't think like you or who aren't like you. I believe that similar values are very important. I think if you gave people some time, you might find they are much like you, but just can't put it out there so quickly. You and someone else, a guy, a girl, whatever, may not present alike in your ways initially, but you may find you are very much alike with your core values.

For me, I did not get serious with anyone until now. I was never the girl who needed someone, I am almost too independent. Some people are ready to get divorced too easily, other's fight, but in the end find that if the other partner isn't willing, it can be very detrimental to their well being. So divorce may be that option for them before they do too much damage to themselves. It doesn't make that person any less moral than the others, they might just be trying to save themselves, which often actually saves their children in the end. I did not want a divorce, but in hindsight I could see how if we did reconcile, but he never changed, my daughter would have witnessed her mother being treated disrespectfully and she would have learned that is OK. This is, in hindsight, the best for her, because if he couldn't change, he would have done some severe damage to me emotionally (he already had) and god forbid that leaked over to my daughter.

I know I wished I had that one special relationship with one person with the rest of my life. But it doesn't always work out that way. It's not that people don't see value in it, but it takes two to have that.

Everyone's situation is different, doesn't make any one right or wrong. But you do throw judgements out there pretty quickly sometimes when people don't see things the way you do. I'm just saying, if you give people a little more of a chance, you might find they aren't BS and share the same values as you, even if they don't show it right up front. People have walls for reasons, and sometimes, we just need to be patient. I say this not only to speak to romantic relationships, but to all relationships in life.

Keep enjoying your life. Enjoy your hobbies, enjoy your kids. I do definitely agree that is crucial first, and I am so happy that's what I chose to do. I probably could have never entered a healthy relationship otherwise.

Don't take this post as a judgement. I think you are a great guy who can get stuck sometimes as only seeing things through your lens. The world opens up a lot more when you view them through other lenses:) I say that from experience.

[Zues126]

Some people are ready to get divorced too easily, other's fight, but in the end find that if the other partner isn't willing, it can be very detrimental to their well being. So divorce may be that option for them before they do too much damage to themselves. It doesn't make that person any less moral than the others, they might just be trying to save themselves, which often actually saves their children in the end. I did not want a divorce, but in hindsight I could see how if we did reconcile, but he never changed, my daughter would have witnessed her mother being treated disrespectfully and she would have learned that is OK. This is, in hindsight, the best for her, because if he couldn't change, he would have done some severe damage to me emotionally (he already had) and god forbid that leaked over to my daughter.

I know I wished I had that one special relationship with one person with the rest of my life. But it doesn't always work out that way. It's not that people don't see value in it, but it takes two to have that.

This is exactly why XW said she was divorcing me and tearing apart my family. I believe everyone that leaves a marriage says this, and that everyone who remains married could if they allowed themselves to. If commitment to a marriage makes me stuck then I will happily stay stuck.

I will admit that I am still too near the loss of my family to read these words without being triggered and reacting emotionally. I had to sit with it a while before I could diffuse my defensiveness or anger. I have also learned how much pain was endured by those that left their terrible marriages, and I have learned to be compassionate for the pain they went through both during and after they left. I am not here to add judgment to that pain. I am simply here to stand by my beliefs and to try to help others avoid being impacted by the damage and destruction caused by divorce.