More and more, and less and less...

[Ginger1]

Ahhhhhh, but zeus, I did not leave my marriage. I fought for my marriage. But when the other person doesn't want back in and doesn't want to change behaviors that are very detrimental, what do you do? Live in dysfunction to simply honor a vow? I am not talking from a WAW view, I am speaking from a LBS view.

You did kind of add judgement to that pain, by calling BS on people for their choices. It's ok, I understand you are still in that very raw phase where you just can't see how divorce is the EVER the better option. Honoring a vow is more than just staying married. It's doing what is needed to keep the marriage healthy.

I am by no means a divorce advocate. I by no means think anyone should just throw in the towel when it gets rough. But I fully believe two people living in dysfunction when one is not willing to work on it, just to honor a vow is very detrimental, especially to the kids. It took me years after my D to figure this one out. I think of where my daughter would be if my ex simply agreed to stay in the marriage, I agreed to stay in the marriage and neither of us, or only one of us just changed or had done the work. I cringe thinking about what kind of damage that may have done. That damage would have been far worse than the damage caused by divorce. I would have gotten past the affair if my ex was willing to work and change with me. But he wasn't.

I'll stop now, but I just want you to see that commitment to a marriage is more than just staying married. I feel the pain of the loss of your family and I hate that you hurt that way. I lost my "family" (I put that family in quotes, because me and my daughter have always been a family) as soon as it began (one and only daughter born through IVF was only 6 months old when he left me for another woman) The pain was mostly unbearable.

I absolutely respect your honor of marriage and the commitment that you make. After almost 8 years of DB and being separated, I have had the chance to come to fully realize what honoring your vows really truly means, it is a whole lot more than just staying married.

[Ginger1]

and for what it is worth, you are someone I would enjoy sitting down face to face having a healthy discussion with over coffee. I think we would possibly both enlighten each other.

[Zues126]

So I met with IC right after my last post. It was quite timely because this has been on my mind lately. I have talked about how I don't trust my feelings or thoughts, as they are too subjective, and how I try to live by my beliefs for those reasons. Well, I have really challenged my stance on marriage. How much of this is just my pain and anger talking? Is my pain and anger helping motivate me to be a better man, or keeping me from being a better man? I am working on letting it go, little by little, am I on track based on my timelines, or am I hung up somewhere?

My IC thought these were good questions to ask. He asked what was keeping the anger around. Like a doctor asking 'does it hurt here, does it hurt here' he made a number of statements people often made after having a spouse leave them, and he asked me to tell him which ones resonated with me. Some didn't hurt me at all, for example I have forgiven myself for my contribution to the breakdown of the marriage, and I do not take it personally that she left me so it doesn't make me feel unloveable, I see that it was her choice. So what were the sensitive spots?

I am angry because the world doesn't work the way I wish it did. I don't like that our human shortcomings interfere with what I feel ought to be life long partnerships. I am angry that it has cost me so much, specifically in not living with my kids, not being able to share the magical moments of raising them with their mom, and of never being able to have the experience of being with one woman for my entire life, that I didn't get the relationship I wanted. I am angry that no matter what I do or say I couldn't prevent this, and that no matter how much I do on my end to find the right partner and look for red flags I might get hurt again because I'm at the mercy of decisions made by people and other forces outside of my control.

When you're angry because the world isn't the way you want it to be, it's easy to blame the world. In my case I tend to blame society's acceptance of divorce, and of those people that justify divorce in any way shape or form. Because of how I feel, it can be hard to see past the idea that no one should ever, ever, ever make this choice. I equate my wife divorcing me to some woman murdering my wife and leaving me to co-parent with the killer. I get angry at the ocean of people that say "I don't believe in divorce BUT" and then explain situations where there are exceptions, when I am really struggling with the idea of exceptions because without fail everyone thinks they're the exception, all of the 70% that destroy families and bounce through relationships looking for what they feel they're entitled to. It's easy for me to be angry at people's expectations that they deserve a spouse that treats them with respect, or is willing to grow with them, or blah blah blah, because in my mind it feels like you stay together no matter what, and if you have a spouse that doesn't care for you, then you set boundaries, and that you find ways to be the best you can be, appreciate what you have in life, and not let your pain lead you to be anything less than the best spouse you can be, and that you stay married and serve your partner because marriage is about giving, not getting, and we're not all entitled to getting everything we want in life, and the idea that we are is causing way, way, way more pain and destruction that if people just STFU, stayed put, and served their spouse and God, because if everyone took leaving off the table as an option, and gave their partners decades to change instead of years, I feel it would work out better for everyone, and that it is our impatience and entitlement and shortsightedness and frankly our human failings and the Devil himself that tells us that we deserve something more right here and right now and we need to go get it.

So, in short, I am angry because the world isn't how I want it to be and I blame the people that excuse divorce.

OK. Breathing. Calming. So that's why I'm angry, and that's why I'm so passionate on the topic. So how much of this is my feelings talking, versus how much is my beliefs? And is this healthy? Well, I know these are my beliefs, I see my journal entries from 2010 and 2011 when I felt like I was dying in my marriage, and how kept coming back to how I'd rather die than leave, and that if we just stayed together maybe someday it would work differently. And in talking to my IC, there is nothing wrong with using the pain I went through to motivate and inspire me to control and change what I can, namely changing myself directly to be a better man, and by doing what I can to influence those around me such as my friends and those on this board.

Where it gets destructive is when I beat my head against trying to change the world itself, when I can't accept the way the world is, and if this interferes with my ability to appreciate and enjoy what there is to enjoy in the world. For example, if I never talk to another woman again for the rest of my life because I believe none of them place the same value on marriage and think their partners are replaceable, well, that doesn't necessarily help me. If I carry that anger to the point that every time I hear about a woman walking out on her marriage I get PTSD and start boiling over, well, that's not going to help me enjoy my life. Particularly with how many spouses are walking ou- (oh no, I'm doing it again!)

What I'm doing each day is two things. 1) Being appreciative for what I have. 2) Working through these thoughts and feelings. It will take time, and there may never be an end to it. We'll see.

In general, though, life isn't the way we want it, we don't get what we wish we did, we lose everything of value to us, then we die...and that can be hard to accept. But in the middle of it there is nothing but a string of miracles, and we can't lose sight of that. And we can't let ideals interfere with our ability to enjoy our reality. I get this in my head, and frankly I've never been happier and get this in my heart more than ever. I guess I was hurt pretty badly and the wound may never heal, so I will have to keep working on this to either patch it up or learn how to manage the chronic pain.

[Wonka]

Zeus,

I have been following your thread(s) for some time.

This jumped out at me:

Anymore I just think that most people are complete bull$hit. I've really been freaked out lately by how many people on this board consider divorce a reasonable option. And how many people are looking for their next partner so soon. And how many people are ok with something less than a committed relationship. I'm not saying they're all wrong. But when I say it, I don't feel I'm crazy either for saying that there is something important and special about having one relationship, that it is irreplaceable, and that when the irreplaceable is lost it takes a long time to process and you should take that time, and then, maybe, someday when I'm ready to build a second relationship, I want that one to be irreplaceable as well.

Let me ask you this:

What is "reasonable option"? What does that look like to you? That is an odd way to put it here in DB forum when every SINGLE poster is here fighting long and hard to preserve their marriages thus getting bruised in the process.

That was a headscratcher for me.

Ginger has done a good job of reframing this discussion with you so I will not butcher her eloquent posts here.

You're still in pain and I think it keeps you stuck from experiencing what life has to offer. People move at different speeds. That is okay. There's no right or wrong way to go about it. Just because you have the Zeus yardstick doesn't necessarily mean that every one has to follow it.

I get it that you feel wounded. You are mourning the loss of your family and marriage. Don't let that stop you from meeting someone special down the road. Don't let the fears get in the way of the process.

[JellyB]

Zues, I am wondering something, and feel free not to indulge me.

Are your feelings and thoughts about the world similar to feelings and thoughts about the changes you wanted to see in wife? Is the anger similar different, is the expectations you have similar different. Is how you feel and behave in response similar?

I am curious.

Asked with much love for you.


Jellyxxx

[Zues126]

Thank you Wonka. My stance is that I don't believe in divorce unless there is physical danger or serial physical adultery. The more conditional divorce gets the higher the divorce rate gets. Add 'emotional affairs', it goes up a few more percent. Add 'not meeting my needs', or 'not growing with me', add another 20%. Add 'not having anything in common', another 20%. Etc. My point is that if everyone meant what they said when they got married and stayed together no matter what, then the divorce rate would be very low. This would give people time to actually grow, work through things, and let the 'for worse' seasons pass. If nothing else people would grow old together, have some mutual needs met, and serve a purpose. Instead everyone is chasing the good marriage they think they deserve. Not only do they destroy the chances of making that good marriage with the one and only person they gave themselves to, but it's not working anyway. 2nd marriages fail at HIGHER rates, there is more strain to kids, separations hurt everyone, and lifelong commitments can't exist in a conditional environment. Why doesn't everyone just stay put? All the moving around doesn't add any value to anything. It's the same pool of broken people, there is no net gain of shuffling around, the only difference is entitlement and broken families and less common life together to offset the adversity.

No one has to agree, that's just how I feel about it. I agree everyone says they are committed to marriage, but not many people feel how I do or act like I do, even on this forum, which is why I can make that comment.

JB, the answer is yes. The anger and expectations I had regarding my wife were similar to what I have towards the world. But it doesn't start there. It starts with the anger and expectations I have towards myself.

None of you have met me in real life. No one really understands. I drive hard. I burn with intensity. When I tell people that I drive harder than anyone they've ever met, they make the mistake of thinking of the most driven person they know and comparing me to that person. They don't get it.

In my own way I am a slightly different species from everyone else. The furnace within me has nuclear energy. I have high expectations of myself, impossible to achieve. But my goal isn't to achieve them. It's to strive for them and find out how close I can get. When I die I will be able to look back and know that I wasn't limited by my beliefs, my effort, or my passion, and I'll know that I left it all on the table, and that I found those limits in the universe, not in my mind. My ideals and my sense of purpose has changed, by giving my all to it never has.

Being a manager was hard for me. Watching what most other people bring, or fail to bring, to their work, to their jobs. It was very difficult for me to accept. I played pool because it was a solo sport. Chess. Poker. Sales. All in my control, because anytime I partner with someone they slow me down, and because no one else matches what I bring.

Being on a team with my wife was hard for me for the same reasons. It was like torture for me to be partnered with someone that seemed so disengaged and so accepting of mediocrity. I am black and white. When I'm not doing something right I have infinite energy and focus until I achieve my goal. Seeing anything less was frustrating to me. I didn't know how to manage those feelings and let my disgust show. I didn't shout or hit, but there is no question she felt criticized, inadequate, and fearful due to my intensity. It's possible that Ginger feels that way around me because of my insensitivity to what she went through, my pigheaded closed-mindedness about her explanations. And dismissed, and minimized, and helpless, and defeated because it looks impossible that I'll ever change.

Maybe part of my anger is that I believe no one could ever live with me, and unless the world works the way I wished it did I'll never have a partner.

It's easy for people to say 'don't be like that'. When people tell me to change this part of me it is hard to hear. How would someone else like it if I told them, "you can be loved by someone, just change your race, change your gender, change your name". Yet it's possible that if a star is 4 billion light years away the light just won't reach our galaxy in our lifetime. I started so far away, I may be dead before I approach anything like normality.

And yet I have changed. This has been a wake up call. I've slowed down a lot in 18 months. I am learning to deal with my feelings. The engines are still brighter than most people can understand, but now by a magnitude of 2, not 10.

Besides, while some people think my views are insane, from my view it seems like it's everyone else that's insane. I'm learning to live and let live.

I do have to accept that it's possible that no one will partner with me. We don't need to pretend. Not everyone can be in a marriage. It doesn't mean I have to hate myself. Just because I don't fit in with others, doesn't mean there's something wrong with me. I have been given a lot of gifts, and I enjoy using them, and I enjoy sharing the road with those on my team. It may be better that I'm by myself so I don't hurt anyone else. Doesn't mean I can't have friends.

And I'm sure I'm capable of more growth and change. I'll continue to cool down. I certainly have learned a lot in the last couple of years, so my ideals and standards now have a lot more safety points and checks and balances built in about how I handle my frustration with mediocrity around me, how I check my expectations. Maybe someday I'll be within tolerance of what other people can live with.

Not sure. And I don't really care right now. Part of my journey right now is to continue to slow down. Breathing. Taking care of my kids. I'll worry about what's in front of me today. A little appreciation. A little reflection. Doing the best I can at what's in front of me. Enjoying the absurdity of it all. It's all good. I've never been better, and I'm happy to be part of a universe that is mostly pretty cool.

[JellyB]

Zues, you are right, I haven't met you and I likely do not understand the person you are in all your fullness. Personally I do not think any human on the planet can be fully understood by another. I feel that this the kind of knowing that occurs between the individual and their high power.

I also appreciate that you have worked really hard to become the man you are, to accept yourself for who you are, for what you think and feel, what you want and to feel loving and comfortable with and for yourself. Everything you talk about above seems true to me to what I know of you through what you have posted over many many months.

I guess for me I see an underlying theme running across many of your posts about feeling "separate" and "unique". Your post above re-inforces my feeling about the on-going nature of these themes for you.

Zues I read your use of the word "world" and I think, who is the world. I think people are the world. And then I think who are the people. Oh he means me, and then I'm like oh, so I think wow I have really disappointed Zues as a human being.

Have I disappointed as a human being Zues? Am I world that you are talking about? If I have disappointed you I can understand why you would feel separate from me.

There is much here Zues and loved your opening paragraphs about your session and questions with your IC. I see another chapter of your self discovery happening, another level of questioning. Another level of feeling.

I do wonder Zues, what purpose the anger is serving you and if it is a tool to maintain separateness.

Zues I don't pretend to understand the human being you are, I only know I appreciate and love the human being you are. If that means that every time I push forward with love and connection and you push back. Well that's how it is. I am not asking you to change.

Zues you don't believe in divorce, I feel the same way about loyalty and friendship. I'm here to stay as long as you are.

Jelly

[Fogg]

I get the same feelings reading your posts Zues. You spend a good deal of time describing how different you are than everyone else. I know you dont intent to be personal or pass judgement on everyone else.

You said you're a different species that burns with a higher intensity. I wonder, what does it mean to you if you were just another average, medicore person? What does that person look like to you. Describe that person, is there someone it reminds you of?

I just wonder if that intensity you have isn't to achieve a higher level of what you can be but to avoid being like someone or something else that you want nothing to do with.

Being here on the forums and realizing most of the world is broken and possibly capable of acting selfishly seems to have you come two paths. You do everything possible(even studying people on the forums looking for common traits to learn how to read someone) to find that one person that is the same as you. Or you write off humanity and be alone. Just my thoughts, they can be ignored or passed on. There may be nothing wrong with your drive and I dont mean to imply there is, it's something that has helped you in many areas of your life. Just offereing an alternate perspective.

[Ginger1]

In a nutshell, the root of your anger is that you can only tolerate people who have your views. To you, your views are the only ones that are right and you would rather not have anything to do with the people in the world who don't view things the way you do because it makes you angry.

You said you didn't team up with your wife well because she was happy being "mediocre"? Well, mediocrity in most cases is subjective. And even though no, I never met you in person, your postings pretty much say anyone who isn't as intense as you is mediocre. Who doesn't have the same drive, views, intensity, is a lesser person than you and cannot be compatible. That closes you off to so many great people in this world. Have you ever met an individual who is as superior as you? I honestly doubt you have. I don't know how you can ever find someone like that when you call people BS when they aren't s intense s you or doesn't share all the same views.

I'd say if you are happy not bringing ANYONE in close that doesn't see the world exactly as you do, then great. But you admittedly angry.

And not to debate, you were very clear on the conditions that people should stay married in. But how come it is OK to get out for physical abuse, but not emotional abuse? Emotional abuse is a real thing. I'm not talking about not getting needs met, I'm talking about a partner who is downright destructive and say and do things that are physical, but no one should ever go through, and a child should never see. I can't begin to tell you how many people I have come across who's parents have stayed together through that and prayed their parents would divorce so they didn't have to witness it anymore. I've seen children hate the emotional abuse parent and become angry at the parent who stayed.

[Zues126]

JB, I don't know what to say. You are one of a kind. Fogg, thanks for the reply.

I will tell you there are different 'worlds' I'm referring to. When I refer to the fact that in this world people don't have the same commitment to marriage I do, I'm simply averaging out the general population and observing that it is far different than it would be if everyone felt like I do. Is the world wrong for feeling differently than me in general? Doesn't matter. It is what it is. It's my problem to accept that, while still living in a way I feel good about. As for who is in that world, anyone that shares my conviction about marriage would likely feel the way I do, and they would know they aren't included in my references to the 'world'.

As for my intensity and how I feel different, there is some truth that I am a bit different. I don't really regard it as a 'better' thing, like 'I'm the best and everyone else is worthless', it's not like that at all. In fact, it's apparent that I hurt my XW tremendously and played a role in the destruction of my family so it's not exactly something I think of as good. But for me if I am not at the top of everything I do by a wide margin I just can't sit with that very easily, like someone with OCD can't stand grime on their fingernails. It makes me uncomfortable. And I get to the top. So when I describe my experience I feel I need to explain that so people can understand both who I am, and what my challenges are in how I relate to those around me. It's not a good thing, it just is what it is, and I'm just tired of beating myself up about it, because me being distraught that I have this imperfection is just more of the same OCD.

As for what role anger serves me, and Foggs question of what would being average mean...well, this is part of my journey.

What I've learned is that I dissociated from my feelings when I was a child. I thought I was Spock, human feelings were just curiosities to me. I denied them. I lived in my head. The problem was that they kept coming back. So I learned a trick- when I'm really focused on something, I don't feel the feelings. I found that when I played pool I could condense my entire awareness to that of the goal I was racing towards, and I wouldn't hurt. This, combined with a deep rooted feeling of inadequacy, lead me to come up with this idea that I needed to be the greatest pool player that ever lived. This was going to be how I 'won'. I didn't realize that the real 'benefit' to me of doing this was that it allowed me to not deal with feelings for many, many years. All I thought about was pool. Anytime anything else crossed my mind or heart I stuffed it away and said 'bah, I will be the best at pool'. I convinced myself that this is why I would be the best, everyone else would be distracted, only I would have the determination to stuff everything aside and stride forward whether my body was in pain or my heart was bleeding. I believed that the amount of pain I went through would determine how far I got, and no one would ever keep up with me because I would burn in hell forever to be the best. All because I didn't know what was going on. So dealing with emotions is not something I'm experienced at.

In my 20s I tried to get married and have children. It didn't work well. I couldn't connect with my children. I remember crying once in a while feeling like my kids were growing up on the other side of a thick, glass wall. I could never connect with them. They were like strangers in my house. And I knew how much pain was in my heart, I was very depressed, and I thought they were better off, and would be better off without knowing their dad. I would bury my depression behind striving at work and pool, and then it would be almost a bi-polar type cycle as I would run from my feelings and run from them but eventually they would catch up and I'd crash. And since I knew this would happen, even when I was running, running, manic, expansive, insane, I was always terrified because I knew the crash would come. I am not bi-polar, it was just a sub-optimal coping method.

I see why my ex left me. This was exhausting and tormenting to her. She was partnered with someone that was crazy. This was my IC's exact phrase.

But divorce was a loss that was so profound, it shook me to the core.

I've been on a journey to try to live differently since BD. I've learned about this model. I've sat with my feelings when I would normally run. I've tried to slow down. I've deliberately resisted my compulsions to go out and kill. I've tried to find healthier ways of processing my feelings, like talking on these forums.

Some milestones have been achieved. I've been able to connect with my kids for the first time in my life. Part of this might be the conflict with XW is no longer interfering, but I am also able to be with them, relate to them in a world they are in.

I am able to appreciate my life. I am not suicidal. I am not up and down. I am not afraid all of the time. My life is better than it has ever been. So I've made some changes.

I guess certain thought patterns are really habitual, and others have defined me for so long I don't always notice them.

One thing my IC keeps telling me is what Fogg said, it was hard for me to accept my mortality. Being human. Being mortal. Being average. Understanding that I don't get to control everything in my life. Not my life, not the world, not my partners. That ultimately I will lose everything and everyone that is dear to me, it is just a matter of when and how. And that the world doesn't work the way I wished it did, and I have to deal with that. That is a slow lesson for me Fogg. For a long time I thought I was superhuman, that I was special, that I could do stuff most people thought was impossible, I could visualize it, will it to be, focus on it, drive towards it, feeling no hunger or pain until it magically happened. And I looked at my results as PROOF. I told my IC at the time "I am not imagining that I have a wall of trophies, that I've been promoted 4 times in 5 years". And he replied, "No, but you're not imagining that you haven't talked to your wife for 4 months either". So living life on life's terms has been an adjustment.

I feel like I'm making that adjustment. As I say, I am breathing, feeling, eating, sleeping, working, and being a dad. I am focused on what's in front of me. I know that I am growing, and I'm working on that as you can tell, but I'm trying not to be too insanely driven on my quest for personal growth because that is self defeating. So I am also trying to accept how flawed I am. It is hard for me. It is hard to be this broken. It is hard that I caused so much pain to XW, that I hurt others with my recklessness. And it is hard sometimes to let go of what I was so great at. It is hard to play pool tournaments and lose, and know that I could turn into the incredible hulk and destroy everyone, only like Bruce Banner I don't want to be that angry anymore, so I'll just put up a fight and lose with grace. It's very hard. But wah wah, life is hard for everyone.

At least for the first time I'm ok. My heart doesn't feel like it's bleeding. I'm not going to take my own life. I am getting along with my kids. So I mean it when I say I've never done better. I am not sure where I'll be in a year, I don't care, I don't want to set more goals. My goal is to not have goals anymore, just to do what is in front of me and enjoy it.

But to the last question, no one on this forum really disappoints me, and certainly no one from Hobbiton...