the road goes ever on and on...

[ciluzen]

Thank you, Zues. I love your truth darts and great insights. You can count me in as someone who isn't planning on giving up on my marriage, even if my D is finalized. Working on me and not giving up.

[Zues126]

JB, nothing odd about my day, I just thought it was odd that I saw so many posters talking about this in one day. Everywhere I checked in it was the same story.

Rich, Faith, Tim, Cil, thank you for chiming in. I know it's easy to believe in marriage when it's what WE want, I will fully admit it's hard as heck when we're the ones stuck. For those that read my journal entries on my last thread from when I was at my low during my M you'll know that I understand...but I am proud that I stuck it out and I still believe this is the only option.

Julie, I really appreciate you finding the good in what I'm saying. I truly understand how difficult it is. I don't judge feelings, our actions define us. You are managing through an awful lot and are still trying to work towards R. Keep at it.

[Zues126]

Painter, my only concern with emotional abuse is that it seems to be a 'catch-all' phrase used by all WAS's for why they are leaving. I am confident that XW thought I was emotionally abusive. Because it's so subjective WAS's everywhere that are fed up have no problem playing the emotional abuse card and pack their bags. Their friends and family pile right on.

Do I ever think there are times when someone's self preservation demands separation without adultery/physical abuse? I'm sure there are examples. I don't want to be involved in drawing boundaries between emotional abuse and the inevitable 'for worse' of any marriage. I do think that the irony is those truly being abused tend to cling too long, and those that aren't tend to blow the whistle wrongly and leave, at least too darn much at a time.

But as always, Zuessy has an opinion on this. I think that in the case of 'emotional abuse', true emotional abuse, it's ok for a partner to separate...but not divorce. Get their own place, get their own life, find their happiness...but do it without other partners. Stand by the marriage. Who knows, maybe that's the catalyst for change for their partner. Maybe 5-10 years goes by and their partner grows up a bit. And if their partner files D or starts other relationships, great, go ahead and sign the D and know you stood for your M. But in my opinion the moment we use emotional abuse to justify terminating the marriage so we can try to find our happiness in the arms of another lover, well, to me that's not appropriate. I know everyone feels entitled to the partner/marriage they feel they deserve, but to me that's just the same selfish thinking that drives the divorce rate to 110% these days.

I believe this would sound extreme to many, but just stop for a moment and think of how many marriages would be saved if people did this. Most people wouldn't leave if their choices were 'work it out' vs. 'extended separation'. And another good number of those marriages would be saved as the separation might actually be a strong catalyst for change as is proven by the number of people like me on this board that really tried to step up their games.

Unfortunately too many WAS's just play the emotional abuse card, then give up on the M, have an OP, and sign the D and never look back.

[Tyler12]

Part of the problem as well in my eyes is that a person claiming emotional abuse and separating to be with OP, and they don't realize it, is it becomes a cycle for them. Now that OP doesn't turn out. They move on and so on without stopping to look at themselves because they believe the partner is wrong and they deserve better.

[kyrie]

Odd day. I've skimmed through and seen a number of posts from different people talking about how they're ready to be done, ready to file, ready to end the 'limbo'.

Everyone's on their own journey so I won't post there. I'll post here. My purpose here is to truth dart anyone on the verge of making negative life changing decisions.

I get that some of this is blowing off steam, just voicing the feelings. Venting. Totally fine. That's one of the reasons we're here.

As for actually ending a marriage, I just want to point one thing out. My XW must have felt that she fought for our marriage and stood by it for a long time. She must have in the end been sick of the struggle and the conflict and the limbo. She made the decision that we weren't right for each other and the abatement of conflict would be worth any price.

What's funny is all these positive comments about who I am on this forum. I am the same man that my XW felt wasn't marriage material. She may never look back and realize who I am or what she's lost. But I know. And I cannot be replaced. Because of who I am. Because I was her husband. Because I was the father of her children. Because we were supposed to be together. You can eliminate some conflict, you can take the path of least resistance, but you cannot replace your spouse. And paying for an end to some conflict with divorce is like ending a headache by shooting yourself.

Then I hear this talk and I wonder...how many here are actually WASs? How many people will end their marriage and spend the rest of their life convinced they had no choice, it was their partner, they tried everything, their spouse just wasn't good enough, they didn't even have a marriage?

Well, if you are married you do have a marriage. And your spouse is capable of change, or you are capable of changing and appreciating the marriage you have. This is the 'for worse'. You can either compare your marriage at its worst to the fantasy relationship you feel entitled to, or you can do your part in the marriage. Part of that may be detaching, moving forward, and setting boundaries. But no part of that is ending a marriage. If there is OP you make the call, if there's physical abuse, please protect yourself. If not, you don't get to quit. Well, you do, you can do whatever you'd like. Let's just be clear that you'd be choosing to get divorced because you feel you deserve more than your partner is giving you at this moment in time.

Some will debate this and explain why their sitch is different, that's fine, it's an open forum and a free country. But if you're looking for agreement you'd be better off tracking down my XW.

I know in part this was rightly aimed at me. In all my despair, I keep losing sight of those things...and knowing God provides another option still keeps me a bit confused. Gonna talk to the DB coach on Monday. I need to remember another nugget you once told me: I'd be making the same mistake he did/has about quitting.
My despair was thinking more about separation (moreso than divorce anyway), with a purpose. Dunno if that makes any difference....

At any rate, as always, I appreciate your dart of clarity and reminder. I know I need it in the darkness in which I seem trapped in. Thank you.

[kyrie]

And that catalyst for change that you spoke about with Painter - that's what I'm thinking about. Taking his ring and taking off mine rattled his cage just a tad.
I still can't seem to stop taking the bait with him though...ugh. He's good at manipulating it juuuuust so...

[SunnyB]

Zues, I came looking for your thread and had to go waaay back! How are you? I just updated, although there isn't much to tell. Hope you and the kids are well.

[Zues126]

Hi Sunny and DB gang. Sunny, like you I don't have much to update, not much DB related but here's what's up in my life:

Family. Family is going well. 4 months until I get 50% parental time. I can't wait. Some cool highlights- I am taking my 3 kids to a chess tournament this Saturday. They all know how to play, but only barely, they basically just know the moves. In preparation I taught them a little about etiquette (so they know to say 'play well', and shake hands, and compliment the opponent on a 'good game', etc). I knew I didn't have much time to teach them anything much, but I made sure to do some practice checkmating with King + Rook vs. King, just so if they had a winning position they weren't just moving pieces around helplessly. Well, my daughter later played my son a game, got into a winning position, and was able to checkmate him using the technique we'd just practiced. She was concentrating so hard trying to get it right and she nailed it! Anyway, just a fun little moment. Amid some reading, hanging out, homework, and good conversation.

Work: Work's been super hard. The last 3 months have been about as hard as any in my career. February is shaping up to be a 'C' if I had to grade it, but this comes after a 'C', an 'F', and an 'F'. Seasonality was harder than I expected. I'm working an awful lot and am fighting to get back into the mix. Still, I did well overall last year and had a record earning, and think that I'll pull out of it. Just stinks when you're struggling in sales.

Pool: I'm having a ton of fun playing pool. As I mentioned my best friend put on 5 separate pool tournaments and scheduled them bi-weekly around my schedule so I could play all 5. I just played the 3rd event yesterday. I took second to my friend that I go to tournaments with and chop with (split the money). So after 3 tournaments I've taken two 2nds and a 1st, and my buddy has taken two 1sts and a 2nd. He plays just amazing. I am inspired by him and he is about the only player in my state or even region that really plays a level above me. I can keep up for a while, but man, he is good. He inspires me to want to get even better, so I can't wait until summer when I upgrade to a rental house and get something that fits a 9 foot pool table. I LOVE being able to just hit balls and work on my game.

Divorce related: Had two events last week that involved XW. First was my D8's school performance. I showed up and XW was there with OM. First time I'd seen him. This is a more recent OM, maybe 3-6 months now. Anyway, my primary feeling has faded from anger to disgust. XW isn't a terrible person, and I'm sure he's not a terrible guy, but I think it's disgusting that people do these things. But beyond that it's their journey. They may make a great couple. Who knows.

Then the next evening I had to file taxes and we both needed to be there. I felt sick before going in. Like a flashback from early post-BD days. Again, just disgust. She said she needed a favor, basically my help getting a document drafted that will help her get some emergency assistance to help get the mortgage caught up. This is disgusting to me as well. XW asked me to leave in Jun-2014, 20 months ago. She said she'd have a job in October 14 when the kids went back to school. That never happened. She hasn't worked a day, lives in the nice house that I bought, and literally spends her time trying to figure out what emergency programs there are to support her. I pay her a TON of money monthly, an absolutely disgusting amount, and she supplements that with government aide. Meanwhile I am literally fighting for my life at work trying to get moved out of an apartment. It was anger, but now it's just disgust. I might make some people mad, but I think it's gross how she can ask me to leave, divorce me, then feel absolutely entitled to a river of money from me because 'but I'm a single mom!', while she's partying it up with a train of guys. After this experience I feel child support/spousal maintenance shouldn't be paid to someone that cheats/walks. If she can't afford to take care of the kids, let me, and she can visit them. OK, that's just how I feel when I see all of this. I get it. The world is the way it is. These laws help many more families than they hurt and all of that. That's fine. But it's enough to make me never want to talk to her again. The whole 'friendship' concept is not happening, I don't need friends like that, and I'm well beyond longing for any relationship with her.

Or anyone? That's kind of where I'm at. I was angry at the world, now I keep coming back to disgusted. I read these forums, I see how people treat each other, and I think "I don't need any of this in my life". I don't open up easily. I am extremely introverted and sensitive. And I just don't want to put myself in the hands of another partner that can do these types of things, the same way I wouldn't trust my $1,200 pool stick to a drunk at a bar.

There's something else to- the whole "GAL", and "find your own happiness", and "NO EXPECTATIONS", etc...well, I've done all of that. I have dropped my expectations of marriage, of the world, and of the people in it. I won't expect my partner to make me happy, or to act the way I think they should...but in lieu of that, I no longer even see the point in partnering with someone. Maybe I've taken these concepts too far, but my idea of marriage these days is almost like pairing up with someone that you expect nothing from that will in turn probably treat you like crap in the end. Hm...I think I like pool better.

I know these are just feelings, so I'm not worried about it. 20 months post BD, 2 months post D, no rush for this guy. I will focus on my kids and my work, and the peace I've found to live my life. I've changed a lot in the last 2 years and I'm confident that in 2 more years I'll feel quite a bit differently.

Anyway, thanks again for checking in. I wish everyone on these boards the best, but you were there when I went through some of the worst of it Sunny and I'll never forget that. Later Gator!

[otw]

Zeus, that whole section on XW is spot on for me as well. I haven't been confronted with if there actually is OM yet, but i tell myself there has to be. But everything is shared here as well. Knowing I am supporting her running around like she is a 21 year old and not working a drop more than ever while i watch my savings dwindle down trying to keep everything the same for my kids.

I have that anger as well.

[Maybell]

Zues, I just want to say one thing about the partnering thing. I'm sure you don't need it but other people read your thread too and I don't want it to go unsaid.

It is; Since I've been dating my New Guy, I have absolutely continued my GAL and it turns out, he likes me for it. GAL isn't something you do as part of recovery. It's something you do to explore yourself. In turn that makes you richer and more interesting if you ever do decide to partner up. It gives the other person something to observe so they can learn more about you, and it gives that person the opportunity to expand their horizons. Hopefully they've got awesome GAL and then you get your horizons expanded too, and ultimately both your lives incorporate all these great experiences and you're both better off.

I was talking to New Guy last night about finding your own happiness, too, and said -- sure, I'll take responsibility for my own happiness. But the essence of a good relationship is when the other person cares about you actually doing that, and appreciates your caring about their happiness. It's the difference between codependency and a healthy relationship. It's not just living two separate lives and sharing the washing machine.

Finally, wrt "no expectations..." When I first met New Guy I went off the deep end. I was erratic and panicky and demanding and I couldn't figure out exactly who I was. It wasn't until I settled down and learned to watch and listen patiently that things started working out between him and me. I think this is what "no expectations" really means. It's not about waiting for a frog turn into a prince. It's about giving yourself the time, space, and patience to see how things unfold, all the while keeping track of the importance of your own needs and goals.

But then, I'm only three months in so I am not necessarily the voice of wisdom here. And you're VERY CLEARLY not ready to date so I'm only saying this to ring the bell for future consideration. I think partnering up when you're ready can be a lovely way to discover yourself and heal from wounds, and have a ton of fun too. But don't do it till you can be a gift to the other person and be willing to receive what they have to offer with generosity as well.