Sandi's Reflections

[someguy1233]

Thank you for being brutally honest. I think I fall into this category of Mr. Nice guy in a lot of ways and not wanting to do anything hoping it will get better. With a WW I have learned it only continues and they will only push further. I believe that she doesn't have respect for me and that is ultimately necessary if there will ever be an R and also even if we only end up co-parenting.

Well, I have seen a lot of divorced couples co-parent who didn't necessarily respect each other. But of course, it sure helps if they do and can be civil to one another.

The book No More Mr. Nice Guy is a free download, if you want to read it and see more details about what a nice-guy type is. I can't give the link, but it's not hard to find.

Thanks for your input here.

Can you tell us the author of the book? I'm getting multiple hits by that name.

[Old Dog]

Dr Robert Glover.

Also look up The Art of Charm podcast. He was a guest on that and explains it all there quite succinctly.

[Bfice3]

Sandi,

Thank you so very much for taking the time, and having the heart to share with us all your experience, strength, and hope! As many others have said, I painfully read through your posts and was haunted by a vision of myself and of my WW and our MR.

I particularly like how you write about the three various aspects of resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. This was very much an exact description of my WW.

The hard part was reading about my own 'cowardice'.

But, just today I was having a phone conversation with a good friend and he said some things to me that I want to believe but I'm not sure how to 'think' about it. So, first let me say that: 1.) I accept that my actions are the only thing I have control over. And also that I am responsible, and I accept my own role in becoming a man that was no longer desirable for my WW. 2.) I also recognize that 'blame' doesn't do any good, and I'm not looking to point fingers at anyone except myself; however, for my own sanity I feel that a full understanding of all sides of an issue is paramount whenever possible.

That being said...here's the question:

What 'should' be the response of a wife in a loving MR with a 'nice-guy type' husband when she sees him devolving into this person that she detests? What is her responsibility? Obviously this can be different in each MR...but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense? I mean, this just seems like such a shallow, empty, self-serving action this woman is taking...and we are all supposed to just say its okay because, "that's how women are?"

I mean, I get it. Like I said above, I accept my role in this fiasco. I know that I have been this 'coward'. I'm learning, just this week, to say that in fact, I've always been cowardly. And, for me, the only thing I can do is stand up and live my life moving forward in such a way as to become the best me I can be.

But...doesn't the WW share some responsibility? Perhaps not. Or at least, if she does, it shouldn't matter to me, because she has had my balls in a jar for the last 15 years. I just can't help but feel that what my WW has done is easily the most hurtful and disrespectful thing I could possibly imagine.

Anyway. I'm sure I'm setting myself up to be pounded on for focusing on the wrong thing.

Thank you again for sharing, and for any responses.

[sandi2]

My question is this… how do I put my foot down? Her latest complaints are that I don’t care for her enough. I don’t help with the kids enough. I don’t make sure she’s cared for. My initial thought was to 180 this and “win her over.” But after reading this thread I second guess myself. I’m open to ideas.

I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M. By the time she is a WW, you could kill yourself trying to "show" her how much you care.........but it's not really the issue. The issue is her lack of respect and admiration for you as a man. That's the direction to work from and where to put your focus. Women don't respect & admire a man that does all the house cleaning, laundry, cooling, child care, etc. That is why M's fall into trouble when the man is a SAHD and the W has a career. She loses respect and admiration for him.

Unless you were you so neglectful and uncaring you were cruel in your treatment of her, I'd take her excuses with a grain of salt. Become a man she respects, and you've won the biggest part of the battle.

[pinn]

I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M.

I think this is spot on. It took me a while to realize this. My wife gave me a very specific issue that was our problem, something she knew I could not argue against, something she said could never be changed. I took me a while to realize the issue she mentioned was just a symptom... the real problem (I believe anyway) is much deeper and along the lines of what Sandi mentions (along with some other things). Once I realized this, I could at least understand things much better.

[sandi2]

What 'should' be the response of a wife in a loving MR with a 'nice-guy type' husband when she sees him devolving into this person that she detests? What is her responsibility? Obviously this can be different in each MR...but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense? I mean, this just seems like such a shallow, empty, self-serving action this woman is taking...and we are all supposed to just say its okay because, "that's how women are?"

I mean, I get it. Like I said above, I accept my role in this fiasco. I know that I have been this 'coward'. I'm learning, just this week, to say that in fact, I've always been cowardly. And, for me, the only thing I can do is stand up and live my life moving forward in such a way as to become the best me I can be.

But...doesn't the WW share some responsibility? Perhaps not. Or at least, if she does, it shouldn't matter to me, because she has had my balls in a jar for the last 15 years. I just can't help but feel that what my WW has done is easily the most hurtful and disrespectful thing I could possibly imagine.

Bfice3, you ask a thought provoking question.....at least for me. If I had had instructions about how to deal with a nice-guy, passive husband when we were first M, maybe it would have saved a lot of heartache for both of us, IDK. I certainly did not respond correctly.

I don't know that it is the W's responsibility, but just as in DBing, her response can make a difference. I wonder how many average women know what to do with a passive husband. The trick is having a wife who is smart enough to take the initiative to find the information about passive-aggressive personalities and the nice-guy syndrome, and how to communicate/respond to them. I had never even heard of these terms, and I had no idea how to deal with my H, except to talk plainly about our problems. To him, I'm sure he mostly heard criticism, which just caused him to withdraw even more. The more he withdrew, the less he interacted with me, and the more frustrated and hurt I would become. Eventually, the resentment would win and I know the disrespect had to have shown through me....and I think it made me look mean. His passive, nice-guy ways certainly affected me, and I thought I tried everything. Apparently, I didn't.

In the material that was mostly out there that I would see (back in the day) about relationships, would tell the wife to accept her H as he was and not try to change him. That is still true today and we pass it along on the DB board. We can't control our spouse. However, as you said, our response or interaction can elicit a more positive behavior from them....if we just know the correct manner of response. I think one the problems for a wife who has a passive H is that her level of frustration makes it very difficult to remain calm, patient, and compassionate to what makes her H the way he is. If she's fortunate enough to know why he is passive-aggressive, then it may help her in how to approach him.

I read tons of material on marriage, b/c I knew my M had problems. However, it never occurred to me to read something about his personality traits or character temperament. I held a lot of resentment toward my H b/c I felt forced into having to take charge in everything from disciplining our kids to hurting my back b/c he would never move that heavy object. And if I asked more than once, then I was nagging. We were definitely wired differently! I could have the yard work completed, while he was still looking at it and drinking his morning coffee. I'm sure some people thought I was the controlling bad guy, while he managed to come out smelling like a rose, but truth be known, he was not putting anything into our relationship. So, I resented being the bad guy to my kids, and I resented others thinking he could do no wrong and everything was my fault.

He appears as a nice guy to everyone else, but then they don't have to live with him. He doesn't know how to express himself, and forget emotional intimacy (which is my real LL), or just come in and tell me about his day. His workday would be over and he didn't want to be bothered....at least that was how it appeared from my VP.

For the wife, it's pretty tough to be compassionate when you have resentment, however, the passive person usually needs to be approached with lots of compassion. If the wife approaches as though she's in attack mode....he will not react the way she wants, and things just get worse. So, if she wants to deal with the real issue that's at the bottom of a lot of their problems, she needs to research information about the nice-guy syndrome and see if her H fits that description. Then, she needs to research how to communicate effectively with a passive-aggressive personality. She can't be criticizing, demanding, accusing or blaming. He needs a positive approach. On a day to day basis, he needs her emotional support by praising him for what he does do, admire him as a man, and however she can help build up his self-esteem and confidence.

There are some short youtube bits on how to deal with passive people, and of course, books.

One last thing, I wanted to comment on this part, especially:

but couldn't a loving spouse elicit or respond to a husband in such a way as to foster change without having to go through this wayward nonsense?

Just to clarify, she is not going through this wayward nonsense to foster change in her H. He may think she's trying to make him do whatever she gave him as her excuse to end the M, but she is beyond caring if he changes. That's one of the issues, she has given up on him ever changing. She feels she did everything she knew to do, and he would not change for the better. She is wayward b/c she lost respect for him and her resentment grew bigger than the love. She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.

Her waywardness is not his fault, nor his responsibility to change her. Neither is it her fault that he has the nice-guy passivity, nor her responsibility to change him.

[Bfice3]

Thank you for responding Sandi. Terrific message, if for nothing else than my sanity.

Just to clarify, she is not going through this wayward nonsense to foster change in her H.

She is wayward b/c she lost respect for him and her resentment grew bigger than the love.

I understand. I can see this now. Unfortunately...way too late.

She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.

This is the part that I just can't process. And I'm basically talking to my WW here...but if I'm responsible for my own happiness...if its up to me to become a better man...then how the hell can you turn this on its head a blame me and hold me responsible for the way you feel and the actions you are taking?

Her waywardness is not his fault, nor his responsibility to change her. Neither is it her fault that he has the nice-guy passivity, nor her responsibility to change him.

Yeah...just a tangled web of faults that fuel each other. I never had the words, the correct terms, but I watched this happen and tried to explain it to my wife many times over many years. What I failed to understand was she didn't want my words...she wanted action.

Oh well...live and learn.

Have a great day Sandi!

[daybyday]

Sandi, you had replied to an earlier question of mine about a WW and separation. To pull all the way back and let them have a taste of H not being their safety net. Can you expound on your opinion of a WAW and separation? I guess my question is, is it the same as for WW? Confused as to my WAW (no OM to my knowledge) wants to separate. Don't want to pursue but can't let it go stagnant either? Ugh!

[sandi2]

Quote:
She feels he is to blame for her feeling the way she does.

This is the part that I just can't process. And I'm basically talking to my WW here...but if I'm responsible for my own happiness...if its up to me to become a better man...then how the hell can you turn this on its head a blame me and hold me responsible for the way you feel and the actions you are taking?

The short answer is that what you say is completely true......and logical. However, a WW is anything but logical. She doesn't think in reasonable, rational terms. She bought into the fairy tale that her H was suppose to make her happy. She sees him failing to do it, and she is angry about it.

For the W who feels she tried to make the MR work and that her H was doing nothing, she turns that resentment on him. She blames him for her anger, disillusion, emotional emptiness, unhappiness, and the failure to have a good marriage.

It takes time for her to deal with those feelings, and that is why she won't listen to him trying to persuade her things can be better and that he has changed. She sees him as the source of her unhappiness and her main goal is to find whatever makes her happy. Sadly, she is seeing that she is responsible for her own happiness, but with her crippled mindset, she doesn't see it from a healthy view point. Her selfishness is driving her, and she has all that anger in her.

She basically has to learn the hard way, by experiencing her reality and dealing with the losses she has caused. That is what shakes her out of the fog. Then she is able to see her H more clearly. If he has made positive changes in himself, she will be drawn to him. She still has to deal with her internal feelings. If she feels remorse and wants to save her M, she will humbly approach her H.

[sandi2]

This is just my opinion based on the differences I have observed in a WW and the wife who walks away without a wayward heart. A wayward wife has bitterness, resentment, vindictiveness, coldness and a goulash of other negative issues against her LBH. She usually shows some type of rebellion against the MR and her H.

Then there is the woman who has given up on the M and her H. She has lost all encouragement and hope. Some women leave out of very serious issues, such as abuse, imprisonment, abandonment, etc. Some WAW'S have a hurt heart. They are sad, disappointed, feel devalued, etc. There may be resentment there, but I don't think it is the same as the wayward wife. The wayward leans more toward hatefulness, meanness, and just cold as ice. She isn't hurt......she's mad! And the main things are that a wayward wife is motivated by pure selfishness. Whereas a walk away wife may be just trying to escape/survive her situation. The wayward wife is manipulative, whereas the walk away wife is not focused on manipulating her LBH. The wayward wife is rebellious. To me, that is a key difference.

I remember when Coach and Greek were on the board. I can't remember all her reasons for walking away from the M, except that Coach spent every spare minute focused on his team and Greek felt very lonely and neglected. Coach made changes and Greek went back home. She started posting on the board to encourage others. I never detected any wayward signs in Greek. So, that is an example of a walk away where there were no issues of abuse or severity of that nature. She was fed up and felt she didn't have a H, and that his team was his priority. The only form of rebellion was just leaving the M. She wasn't in any type of A, she wasn't acting like a wild teenager, or any of the typical behaviors of a wayward. As I remember, Coach (who could be called a man's man) used a certain amount of tough love, by not begging, being a doormat, etc. He did not have to go to the lengths a man with a WW usually has to take, and Greek went home pretty soon.

Depending on the reason the wife has walked away. If the H has hurt her, then he can sincerely apologize to her, then give her space and start making drastic changes in himself. She will have to see for herself that those changes are not just him trying to con her and that they are authentic. This is a situation where he could slowly try to ease into a friendship with her. The only time I balk against the friend route is when the wife is wayward. Of course, I still caution the H to go slowly with his WAW and don't become her gay boyfriend. He wants her to be attracted and sexually drawn to him. If she has a hurt heart, then he has to prove to her that she can trust him with her heart again. He has to ease slowly into a romantic pursuit, or she will take off running. Every situation is a little different, so this is a wide span of advice, instead of narrowed down to individuals.

One more word of caution. Just b/c there have been no evidence of an A/OM, does not mean her heart is not wayward. Her attitude usually gives her away. Is she hurt, or is the deep ugliness within her rearing it's head? Does she lash out at you? Is everything about her? Does she act like a completely different woman from the one you married? If she appears to be a devil dressed in your W's body, there is very probability that she is wayward.

Have I answered your question, or did I talk around it?