Sandi's Reflections

[Sparkls]

How do you tell the difference though? My WS seems to be doing both. He brought up legitimate concerns in our relationship (some things I really am working on changing within myself), but is also doing a lot of the wayward things (I never loved you, I never wanted this life, there is OW who makes him *so* happy who he is living with, not sure if I'm happy with her because I was so unhappy with you etc.).

I guess at the end of the day, my response is kind of the same. Let him do what he needs to do and focus on myself and fixing the things I think I need to fix (learn to try and control things less, listen more, appreciate, get treatment for my depression etc) but some of these I can only really work on if he comes out of his fog and agrees to try and work on the relationship.


Edit - Slight correction: he is staying with her and her best friend in her best friends house.

[sandi2]

Sparks, IMO, if they are having an affair, they are wayward.

[daybyday]

Yes you did Sandi. She is def. hurt, but everything seems to be about her. Always has been kind of. Always needed tons of validation and that's one thing that I couldn't give. It became exhausting. That's one of her major beefs. I believe if not her body, then her heart is Wayward as you have said. I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?


Let me clarify, I shouldn't have used the word validation because that is not what I meant. I should have said praise. Constantly looking for that verbal pat on the back. Insecurity I know and I grew to resent that so I pulled back. It makes you appreciate what a fine tuned machine a good marriage is as there are so many moving, interchangeable parts.

[sandi2]

I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?

I would say so.

Your W's love language is probably words of affirmation. On the other hand, I have seen a few people who thrive on praise. They get so centered on themselves that they almost become demanding of praise. They are like a vampire sucking you dry.

I have a relative who has very low self-esteem and depends upon others to make her feel good about herself. If anyone ever says one little negative word, she's through with them. If you praise her, she comes alive. But she doesn't know how to build her own self value, and what she gets from others is not self-sustaining.

[Fogg]

I have a relative who has very low self-esteem and depends upon others to make her feel good about herself. If anyone ever says one little negative word, she's through with them. If you praise her, she comes alive. But she doesn't know how to build her own self value, and what she gets from others is not self-sustaining.

This would be my W. This behavior confused the hell out of me over the last year because validating/being kind to her would make her chatty toward me. Took time to realize it was still just all about her. I'm sure there is some deep attachment and feelings in there for me but it was mostly convenience I was around. Anyone else that could make her feel good about herself would have worked also.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

There are so many issues and strategies and philosophies discussed in this thread that it makes me dizzy to read.

I found myself agreeing and disagreeing throughout.

First off...I agree with Sandi that sitting back and accommodating a wayward doesn't work. Men very often do have conflict avoidance issues as well as lack of understanding about marriage and women.

Just a couple of quick counter points though:

1. Dr. Glover of No More Mr. Nice Guy fame is not nor ever was "a nice guy". His two marriages failed (*see quote below - he was a serial adulterer and still sounds very much like an unrepentant wayward). Part of Dr. Glover's rationalizations and justifications for marrying, cheating on and then dumping his two wives is that his picker was bad and he shouldn't have ever married these two (weaker, no fun and less undesirable) women. That he was too much of a "nice guy" so he married them and then cheated on them because they weren't right together from the get go. His whole philosophy about be a good "ender" of relationships and dumping people (women) after getting really intimate and close with them (including sexually, of course) because they aren't perfect fits in your own narcissistic life plan of banging younger and younger women and having fun where fun suits you....is completely anathema to the purpose and values of this forum (divorce busting). In other words...Dr. Glover promotes divorce (being a good "ender" by realizing your wife was never a good fit for you and you'd have realized that if you weren't so busy being nice and trying to fix things or patch things up with her). Dr. Glover's philosophies and advice on relationships should be read with that understanding. He was NOT a nice guy trying to act like a nice guy and it then resulted in him becoming a serial cheater. He, not his ex-wives (particularly the wife of his youth), was the poor choice and sorry excuse for a husband.

[Dr. Robert Glover] Yes. Actually, my second wife, like a said it began as an affair. We were both married when we got together. I did have an affair early in that marriage and that’s why I started going to therapy. Then, yes she did have an affair towards the end of it. Then I stuck around three more years. I had other reasons for sticking around, like kids were involved. But yeah, on both of our parts there was unconscious stuff going on there, for sure.

2. Being a nice guy doesn't cause wives to cheat and women love actual "nice guys". This can be demonstrated by how quickly and easily most of the divorced betrayed husband's on these forums have absolutely no trouble finding new girlfriends and wives within a short time after divorce that are so often twice the woman their ex-wayward wife ever was. These "nice guys" ARE awesome.

3. I have gleaned that MOST OF THE TIME (not always) the primary or biggest problems and issues in the marriage can be most attributable to the wayward spouse. Sure fix some stuff and clean up your side of the marital street but stop blaming yourself (or your niceness) for your spouse's unhealthy, destructive and hurtful choices. Their choices can more probably and easily be explained by looking at the wayward's (and their family of origin's) history of bad choices. Generational curses happen because children from broken dysfunctional homes are more likely to cheat, abuse and use and break their own homes....the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree. Notice this is applied to both wayward husbands and wayward wives. How "nice" their husband is doesn't really factor in.

4. As a man...YOU define your own masculinity. Be careful when others (women, men of weak character like Dr. Glover and especially your own wayward wife) tell you what a man is. Neither my wife nor, apparently, Sandi would put up for 2 seconds with what they both put their husband through. So they both pull their hair out watching betrayed husbands on these forums put up with so much crap. However, both Sandi's husband and I saved our wives from the grips of infidelity and restored our loving marriages and families. We both did something right even though we didn't do everything right every day.

5. Your biggest enemy isn't your wife's lack of respect for you. She couldn't care less and demonstrably has ZERO respect for you. Thus you can demand or request all the respect you want but she won't give it to you unless it helps her keep the affair going. It's all about the affair. Interfere with it and she'll be hateful. Leave it and her alone - she'll be as pleasant as a wayward can be. The reason being nice doesn't work isn't because it kills her respect for you, it doesn't work because it doesn't interfere or otherwise facilitate the ending of the affair. Accomplishing "no contact" is the only thing that matters. You've got to hold her accountable and, if she resists, expose evil. If your wife is messing with a married man, and you are a Christian husband, you have a duty to confront your spouse and if they refuse to stop sinning, to disclose the affair to OM's wife (without warning or threatening OM or your wife or it WILL backfire). If your Christian, you also have a duty (after private confrontation and she refuses to end it) to disclose your wife's sin to the Church/Pastor who should bring it to the attention of the Church elders and any bible study group the wayward participates in. I also think, in short order, the children of the marriage must be told lest the little narcissists conclude it's all about them and something they are causing. The children need to know the truth about their lives too...in an age appropriate manner.

6. Get help. You've never been cheated on before and certainly don't know how to respond. The fact you find yourself in this situation at all is probably an indication you have weak relationship skills and conflict avoidance issues already so trying to do it yourself is foolhardy. Your wife is cheating on you. You can't conflict avoid yourself out of this. I know it FEELS shameful but infidelity is rampant. It's already happened to many of your friends and family you just don't know it yet. Getting help from experienced persons is essential for your best chance to save your wife and family as well as your emotional well-being. Especially as the only sane parent remaining in the household, your children need you to be smart about this and seek wise counsel to save mom and their family. In the process though be sure to use your discernment from whom you solicit and take advice. There are more wayward therapists out there than just Dr. Glover. Marital therapists actually have one of the highest rates of divorce and infidelity of any profession. Ask questions - a good therapist, in general, should be happily married, speak well of his/her spouse and have a client list full of reconciliation success stories one or more of whom he'd be willing to offer you as a reference. Personally, I think you are better off with a marriage coach because counselors generally prefer talk therapy and you need someone experienced to actually tell you what to do instead of talking about your (or your wife's) childhood; or, worse, how you caused your wife's affair because you were too nice.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?

I would say so.

I would say no.

The first step to winning this battle is busting up the affair. You (or she) can respect and admire the heck out of each other but as long as there remains a third party interfering in your marriage, you don't stand a chance.

Now if by "respect" you mean -

A wife that demands her husband allow her to remain friends and in contact with her affair partner doesn't respect her husband....

Then I would agree that she needs a modicum of respect for her husband, her family and, quite frankly, herself, to actually establish and maintain "no contact" herself. However, even that doesn't matter much. The OM in my situation dumped my wife after he was exposed as an adulterer to his friends and family. My wife had no choice in "no contact" and would have probably preferred riding the fence cake eating for a few more weeks, months...years. I probably would have ended up divorced if I simply waited for her to "get it". However, after a few weeks of "no contact" she started realizing what a fool she had been and despite having zero respect or feelings towards me decided for herself that "no contact" was what she wanted to and despite not feeling it...to give reconciliation a fair shot. The rest is history.

The point is....you don't need respect or remorse FIRST. You only need "no contact" and THEN you have a chance to get respect and remorse....eventually.

[1313]

If your Christian, you also have a duty (after private confrontation and she refuses to end it) to disclose your wife's sin to the Church/Pastor who should bring it to the attention of the Church elders and any bible study group the wayward participates in. I also think, in short order, the children of the marriage must be told lest the little narcissists conclude it's all about them and something they are causing. The children need to know the truth about their lives too...in an age appropriate manner.

My WW planned way ahead on this one.

First, her OM is divorced and I doubt his X would care at all.

Second, the W suddenly stopped going to Church oddly right around the time I believe the EA began. While I was not a regular attendee (I sure am now), she blamed the fact that the Church ousted the pastor because he was having an affair. While my IL's felt he should have been forgiven, I could sort of understand the Elders' decision. After all, this is their decision to make.

In hindsight it's pretty interesting that this was the reason, and one that the W objected to. The timing couldn't have been better for her.

With her turning her back on God and our Church, I'm guessing she no longer felt there was a moral authority dictating to her. What completely floors me is that she was and has been a devout Christian for many, many years. Extremely active in the Church and even sang in the choir. I'm the sinner in need of saving.

This is where I have a hard time as well. I haven't told anybody at the Church - not that it would make a difference now as she's buffered herself from it. But I suppose I should, at least they can pray for her.

[ARose]

How do you tell the difference though? My WS seems to be doing both. He brought up legitimate concerns in our relationship (some things I really am working on changing within myself), but is also doing a lot of the wayward things (I never loved you, I never wanted this life, there is OW who makes him *so* happy who he is living with, not sure if I'm happy with her because I was so unhappy with you etc.).

I guess at the end of the day, my response is kind of the same. Let him do what he needs to do and focus on myself and fixing the things I think I need to fix (learn to try and control things less, listen more, appreciate, get treatment for my depression etc) but some of these I can only really work on if he comes out of his fog and agrees to try and work on the relationship.

Sparks I have struggled with the same question. And then I realized that we ALL have legitimate issues in our marriage. But we either suck it up, talk to our spouse about it, or get counseling. Those are the healthy responses to dealing with legitimate issues. That is what you do. If you go wayward, then you use those legitimate issues as an excuse to justify your own behavior. Doesn't mean the issues aren't real, just means that you are using issues - that everyone in every marriage has- to justify being a cheater. If you talk to your friends with "healthy" marriages you will find that everyone has issues. Everyone. Not everyone cheats, not everyone spews, not everyone uses those issues to justify bad behavior.

Go ahead and address your issues because it is the right thing to do. But do not accept the blame for your partner's behavior.

[1313]

I don't think most WW tell the H the true issue at hand. She will either complain about something from years earlier, or give anything the she thinks sound good enough to be a justifiable excuse to break up the M. By the time she is a WW, you could kill yourself trying to "show" her how much you care.........but it's not really the issue. The issue is her lack of respect and admiration for you as a man. That's the direction to work from and where to put your focus. Women don't respect & admire a man that does all the house cleaning, laundry, cooling, child care, etc. That is why M's fall into trouble when the man is a SAHD and the W has a career. She loses respect and admiration for him.

Pearls of wisdom. Like most LBH here, I found the WW rewrote history - completely. Some of her parting shots to me were absolutely mind-blowing. Like her disappointment on the honeymoon night (never mind the nights before and after), or not having intimacy when we were in Venice. She's always been one to have fantasies, and huge expectations for certain things. The problem with expectations is you're setting yourself up for disappointment. If I disappointed her, I am truly sorry. I only ever looked at all the amazing times and honestly remember few bad.

But of course - this is all part of their journey into turning us into useless, pathetic, repulsive creatures. The 99 good times are over-ridden by the 1 bad. Even if it wasn't bad. I'm sorry I ever apologized for anything I did to tell you the truth.

I just wonder - she expected so much before - do they expect the same from the OM? Or are they all of a sudden forgiving when the door isn't being held open, or they need to fix their own dinner? I'm assuming the guy could take a dump on her and she'd think it was roses.