Sandi's Reflections

[sandi2]

I believe young women are set up for high, romantic expectations. All her growing up years, she watches romantic movies, read romance novels, and daydreams about her knight in shining armor. So, a nice man comes along and he is so sweet and wonderful to her. She believe he is the one for her. She pours herself into a dream wedding and has romantic fantasies of the wedding night......as well as for the rest of life. They are usually unrealistic and b/c these expectations are so lofty......she's going to be greatly disappointed. With disappointment comes her resentment and blame. She blames her H for not being what she wanted. He didn't produce the desired effects. She complains and cries, and he tries harder to make her happy.....b/c she thinks it's his job to make her happy, and he's just trying to get along with her.

But of course - this is all part of their journey into turning us into useless, pathetic, repulsive creatures. The 99 good times are over-ridden by the 1 bad. Even if it wasn't bad. I'm sorry I ever apologized for anything I did to tell you the truth.

Right! Let me add that it's not as much as the good times vs the bad times as it is the emotional connection. Couples can go through devasting times and still be crazy about each other. Love should not be based on how many great days the couple experienced.

Here is the dynamics I see in most of these nice-guy marriages to entitled princesses. She has these lofty fantasies. When he doesn't produce the happy feelings she thinks is his duty to do, as her H.........she reacts. When she reacts, he may crawl into his shell, man cave, or whatever he does to withdraw from her. He is hoping she'll calm down and he can bear to live with her again. Some nice-guys may try "explaining" to his immature, demanding W, how life really works......but she's not having any of it. She feels entitled to more, better, than him. She may throw fits, give him the ice treatment, withdraw sex, or cry for days..........and he finds himself doing the only thing he knows to do.......apologizing. He may not realize WHAT he apologizing for, but he will do anything she wants just to get her out of this mood. He walks around on eggshells, fearing the least thing could set her off. He lets her have her way, just to keep the peace. However, instead of appreciation, she becomes more demanding, harsh, disrespectful in the way she talks to him and in her attitude toward him. It's as if she has this hidden agenda that he can't figure out. He is knocking himself out to give her what she wants, and she seems to like him less. He keeps giving and she keeps taking.

Sure he probably made some mistakes in their MR, who doesn't. However, he is the one who always seems to give in first. He's the first to apologize, to initiate making up, and willing to do whatever she wants him to do. If he will evaluate their relationship, he will see that she actually controls the MR. How? By having her fits, bad moods, bulling, withdrawing sex, manipulation, etc. A man can take just so much of this behavior! However, it has worked for her in the past, so that is the weapon of choice. If he does not change how he interacts and responds to her, this dynamic of her running the show in selfish, irresponsible and disrespectful behavior, will continue even after they are divorced. He has to change the dynamics within their interaction, their relationship and connection. She will not change toward him until he makes the changes necessary. First step is finding his b@lls.

I will tell you men a secret, and I am going to put it plainly. Women love men with b@lls! We are drawn to men who have b@lls, and who especially show their b@lls to us. We don't tell them, of course, but we respect those guys who act like men with us. You know the type I mean, right? Men who won't be manipulated, pushed around, and we can't use our little feminine tricks with them. Men who are not afraid of us, and will call us out for disrespect and bad behavior. We women, who we're born without b@lls, try to acquire them by taking them away from the men. If we are M, guess who is our number one target? And, once we have the power of our H's b@lls, we don't intend to hand them back easily.

When women marry a nice-guy type, the negative side of his nice-guy traits become more visible after marriage. B/c guess what? The guy's W is going after his b@lls. If he meekly hands them over to her, he has lost his position as the man in the M and she takes the man's place, b/c she has the equipment that says, "The one with the b@lls is the man". The nice-guy thinks he is being cooperative, or keeping the peace, or whatever reason he tells himself when she tests his manhood. Each time, she walks away with his b@lls. And you know what? B@lls just do not compliment a female. I mean, she's just is not very attractive trying to attach those things to her. She loses a part that makes her soft and feminine. And guess how she sees her H, who is minus the b@lls? She sees him being the soft and feminine one in the relationship. Well, this order of things does not work well in a male-female MR. The roles gets all messed up, and the woman who took the b@lls becomes more of a bully than a loving wife. The kicker is.....she's still unhappy and she thinks it has to be all the H's fault.

Years of resentment toward her H, and the lack of respect she feels for him as a man......is followed by bad behavior, waywardness, rebellion. It may show in various ways, but it's just a matter of time until she's ready to throw him aside and find herself a "real" man (or so she thinks).

I just wonder - she expected so much before - do they expect the same from the OM? Or are they all of a sudden forgiving when the door isn't being held open, or they need to fix their own dinner? I'm assuming the guy could take a dump on her and she'd think it was roses.

Well, in the beginning, she is so fogged out of her mind that she seldom sees him for what he truly is, b/c she is buying more & more into the fantasy. She has these dreams of him being her "true" love who is going to rescue her from the miserable life she's had with her H. Even if someone shows her proof of this OM being a loser, her fantasy drives her to make excuses, ignore it, or forgive him. She will either see him more clearly when the fogg lifts or when they are living together and have to deal with real life.

Regardless of the outcome with the WW and OM, the LBH needs to really strive in changing his nice-guy tactics and learn from the interaction in his MR. I will tell you another secret. A wife will need her H to stand up to her, not fear her moods and fits, and put his foot down when she is misbehaving. Every time he allows her to push him around, she loses more respect for him. Avoiding conflict is not how a man needs to deal with his wife. He needs to take charge, get his b@lls to the rightful owner, and start being the man he was meant to be. He needs to be the leader, instead of acting like her employee. He must command respect from his wife and children and take the position as head of the family.

[ARose]

I guess respect and admiration are the first steps to winning this battle?

I would say so.

I would say no.

The first step to winning this battle is busting up the affair. You (or she) can respect and admire the heck out of each other but as long as there remains a third party interfering in your marriage, you don't stand a chance.

Now if by "respect" you mean -

A wife that demands her husband allow her to remain friends and in contact with her affair partner doesn't respect her husband....

Then I would agree that she needs a modicum of respect for her husband, her family and, quite frankly, herself, to actually establish and maintain "no contact" herself. However, even that doesn't matter much. The OM in my situation dumped my wife after he was exposed as an adulterer to his friends and family. My wife had no choice in "no contact" and would have probably preferred riding the fence cake eating for a few more weeks, months...years. I probably would have ended up divorced if I simply waited for her to "get it". However, after a few weeks of "no contact" she started realizing what a fool she had been and despite having zero respect or feelings towards me decided for herself that "no contact" was what she wanted to and despite not feeling it...to give reconciliation a fair shot. The rest is history.

The point is....you don't need respect or remorse FIRST. You only need "no contact" and THEN you have a chance to get respect and remorse....eventually.

GB, a couple of months ago you advised me to gather some intel to determine once and for all if h was still with ow. I don't know if you remember, but H was leaving for 6 months for a job across the country. I did not take your advice.

I chose to believe him when he said it was over. He still says it is over and I kind of believe him. But I don't know, and now that he is not here I have no way to find out. I wish I had taken your advice then. H is still angry and alternates between anger and silence and I really wish if I knew if I was dealing with a wayward H or just an angry H. It would mean a huge difference to me in my commitment.

I just wanted to let you know that I regret not taking your advice. You were right. I should have listened to you. Being in limbo is the hardest thing. Please keep posting and sharing your perspective. It is helpful.

[sandi2]

GB, I don't know why you persist in following me around on the board and trying to discredit my posts. We obviously do not see eye to eye about some things, but why do you feel you must pop in from time to time to make your "counter points" to what you think I am saying? We know where you stand about exposing affairs. This thread is not about exposure and the tactics you recommend.

The Nice-Guy Syndrome is about a personality type. It is much deeper than just a man who seems nice. If you want to discredit the author of the book, based on his private life, I had prefer you not do it on my thread. I recommend the book b/c it explains the the NGS much better than I could attempt. And perhaps, according to your judgements of Dr. glover, I shouldn't have anything to say, either,........since I am a former WW, IDK. I am not trying to tell men how to be men, I am trying to explain how women react to the negative side of the NGS. When men ask me how they should do this or that.......maybe you see my answer as telling them how to be men, IDK. All I can tell them is from a woman's VP how she will react to his NGS.

I have tried very hard to explain how it is much more than the affair that was happening in the MR, and how a foundation of disrespect, deep resentment, and rebellion is formed before the A comes on the scene. In some cases, there is no affair at the time a newcomer arrives, but his W has all the signs of being ready. But I do not blame a man for his W's infidelity.

This is not meant as a personal challenge to debate, it's only my defense of my thread.

[rd500]

Hi Sandi , just a quick thank you as a LBS Your perspective is unique because you where there and lived it. Others have beliefs due to place of birth or whatever and they can come a cross as a bit self righteous Please don't defend your position , I can't speak for others but your posts help me get through this and IMHO your invaluable

Thank you. Rd

[Si_07]

I agree with Rd Sandi, I have found your posts and answers to questions insightful and can take much from them. Thank you for your continued support to this board.

I had been looking back trying to find something, I think it has been mentioned in several places that a WW can wait till the last moment of a 'deadline' before turning on a big sob story as a test of whether her H will cave into it. I have a week before my W is due to move to her apartment but find some of her actions around the house to be strange. For example, we have wood floors and they get oiled occasionally, I told her I would do it when she has gone and some of the things are gone as it will be easier but she is dong it this morning. It's almost like she is cleaning like she is planning to stay... I could be entirely wrong of course but just wondering what I might expect if she was to take this to the 'deadline'.

I have continued like you suggested awhile back of removing myself as much as possible from her and am doing my GAL activities without explaining myself.
I have also had her family contact me in the past week, something they haven't been doing for a couple of months.

I'm expecting this week to get stranger by the day and will keep moving forward with my own things.

[sandi2]

Thank you for your encouragement, RD.


Thanks SI, it hard to say about your W and why she's oiling the floors. I remember waxing the floors right before we moved from a house, b/c I did not want to be seen by the landlord as less than a perfect housekeeper. And, that was before my WW days.....so who knows why or what she's thinking. I could guess several things, but bottom line is women can do some strange things sometimes.

Stay focused on you and don't get distracted by her craziness.

[Huddy]

As a LBS, I can only say that, virtually to a tee, everything that sandi2 has said about WW has been spot on. For that, she gets my respect as I am quite sure I would be in a desperate position now if I had not read her words (others as well). I commend this hero to anyone. Don't forget, sandi2 has lived everything she is talking about - if we didn't have that insight, I doubt few of us would realise what was going through our W's heads.

[daybyday]

Sandi, a question about how WAW may feel. Still in same house (at the moment) and am wondering about making plans such as seeing movie, out to eat etc. Do you think the WAW gets a sense of relief when we make plans without them or are we supposed to try to include them in our plans. Don't want to be seen as pursuing when I am just asking if she wants to go along with S and I. if she says no, we are still are doing it.



I am also having a heck of a time identifying my wife. Is she WW or just WAW. I was here 8 years ago and she was WW with known EA. This time it seems different but there are different dynamics at play also. She doesn't go out much, the last time she did. She still comes to me to talk about stuff, the last time she didnt. But, she has to have thought of life without me and I am sure she would not be celibate so wouldn't that classify her as WW. Are there degrees of WW or is this just the start.She wanted D right off the bat but I was able to talk her off of the ledge. I suggested sep. She agreed, but has still not found a place. I just hate to be applying WW Db'ing to a legitimate WAW who is just done with trying to fix. I would love to hear your take.

[sandi2]

I would evaluate her based on her interactions and behavior toward you. In your evaluation, consider the answer to the following questions: Did she appear to change suddenly? Does her heart seem to closed to you? Are her reasons for ending the M based on selfishness? Does she make every thing about her, and if it's not....then she isn't interested? Does she take out her moodiness or anger on you? Does it take very little for you to set her off? Does she keep her phone glued to her? How was the sex life before she announced she wanted a divorce? Does she show a disrespectful attitude toward you? Does she ever put you down in front of others or the kids? Does she seem to have resentment, yet you aren't sure why? Have you seen anything out of character for her? Aside from talking about herself, her day, her problems.........does she seem interested in you at all?

Does she seem overall sad and hopeless? Does she act as if she has given up all hope? Does she act as if she is hurt or disappointed? Has she tried to work out the issues with you? Does she act as if she wants to be free, or escape?

Do you feel this could be the result of things not being resolved from the time you were here in 2008?

[daybyday]

Thanks Sandi.No, no change suddenly. Yes heart closed to me. Reasons sort of based on selfishness. Not all about her, but little interest otherwise. No to taking her anger out on me. Phone is sometimes left next to me on the couch when she leaves room. Sex life was not good. Had been 1 1/2 years (red flag).No disrespect or put down in front of others. Does have resentment but she has told me why and they seem reasonable to me. Some interest in me but not as much as earlier in our marriage.No longer seems sad or hopeless after bomb. Hurt and disappointed before but not after bomb. She has said she just doesnt want to be married anymore because she doesnt like me anymore. Said i was mean so on so on. I do feel that we didnt resolve issues in 2008. She has mentioned that we have a codependent R and she had made excuses for me for a long time. Said she has no more fight as we would just end up right back here again.