Baby steps

[trumpet]

Painter,

Your husband, to me, seems immature. Did something possibly happen in his childhood? He's not able to accurately figure out his emotions, and what to do with them... maybe?

I know I've grown tremendously understanding my basic emotions, secondary emotions, and the triggers that spur them. I can recognize why I'm getting upset, that I AM upset, or hurt, or happy, and express that emotion verbally, and not using sarcasm, passive-aggressiveness, hurting words, or silence to express them - telling someone what I'm feeling and why. Cool stuff I've picked up in counseling, and I feel like an adult now!!! LOL, 40 years old, and I finally feel like I have a grasp of this grown-up adult thing.

I'm SOOO sorry to hear things haven't worked out. I feel like you've done a lot of growing up and self-discovery. Your H might need to hit bottom and figure himself out before he knows what he wants and how to respond appropriately. The question then - will you still be available and around? (This is my question of the moment)

[Painter]

Trumpet, no, H is not what you'd call self-aware. It seems like he reacts and acts without questioning his own motives. What he feels and what he does, is just right to him. There's no self-doubt there. Because he wants it, it must be right. Must be nice to feel that way, really!

He finds it painful and exhausting to talk about feelings or problems and does what he can to avoid it. That's part of the reason he doesn't think we're a 'good match' - I want to talk about stuff and he just wants to have his needs met and then hang out with his buddies. I make him question himself and our interactions, and he experiences that as criticism and lack of support.

He can be very authoritarian when I don't agree with him - just today he was yelling 'I'm telling you ...!' when I didn't agree with something he said. And then he says that I'm so difficult and won't listen, and that I don't accept his authority and that's why he wants to D.

Since you've been through the counseling process, you'll know what I'm probably like having done that on and off since I was 20, and on top of that studied psychology. I have no problem talking about the human experience! And I have really enjoyed the DB process for myself.

Maybe we really are ill-suited... Even the MC asked how *on earth* we had ended up together.

H is nearing retirement age and he is very clear that he doesn't think he'll change or that he even wants to. He experiences counselors as intrusive strangers and he is mostly uncomfortable with them.

I really don't expect to ever see him again once I leave next week... But I will take up residence in your lovely city so I have nice things to look forward to!

[Painter]

Church today, shopping and lunch with a friend, then home to work on the S agreement with H.

H is angry that I want to run it by my L. (He downloaded it from a paid, state-specific, legal web-company. Our agreement is real simple, but we have to take into account potential complications.

For instance, we have agreed on length and amount of alimony (state guidelines) - but what if something happens to H during that time? I want to discuss options with the L.

How do we solve health insurance? Taxes? All that kind of stuff. H believes he's a subject matter expert on everything and there's no need to talk to our CPA or a L about any of this. It's causing friction, anger and arguments.

6 days until I leave.

[JujuB]

Hi painter,

I don't know if the similarities in our situations are due to the universal male/female struggle regarding communication or if our husbands are just made from the same mold..

My husband also said to me that he needed the separation to see if he missed me and son and if he could handle it? (As if it's all about them and no one else friggen matters in their universe)

Same anger involved with the whole legal system.

When you described how he does what is best for him without an ounce of self doubt I felt like you put into words a very accurate description of my husband as well. Truly uncanny. (I believe they are both engineers and only children. I wonder if there is something that contributes to that mind set) I actually copied what you wrote in your 3/31 post and put it in a book I use for notes with my coach! I do not have any background in psychology (except for some introductory classes ) and struggle to understand it.

my husband also does not talk about feelings. Funny that your husband was hyper sensitive to you criticizing him for affair. My husband hypersensitive when I criticized him for waking up consistently at 2 pm instead of helping with family. My husband makes it out like I am verbally abusive for this. I felt frusturated at his inability to compromise and validate and actually listen.

My husband also spewed and became very angry when I brought up reconciliation. I now stopped. If they want it they will let us know. And they have to be so upset that they are really willing to do anything or it simply won't ever work. Really we just have to accept what their actions are saying as much as we don't want to believe it or accept it.

Painter, I have been asking myself this a lot lately... Are they really worth it? Did living with him provide you with such a loving, peaceful existence? or were you often left feeling completely frusturated and invalidated by their inability to abide by rational emotional thought and consideration? i think some people are just not capable of it. In my case, sometimes I wonder if I am hanging on because it's a power struggle. Someone in my divorce care group (just joined) said that God does not want people to be so unhappy and that when spouse is cheating and leaves the marriage we should recognize it as a gift from God to get us out of that relationship.

When I read your situation I get mad at how husband vilifies you and plays victim. I realize my husband does the same. Sometimes I believe him.

[Painter]

Juju, I agree that what I'm fighting for is not a bed of roses. There's many, many likenesses between our H's, you're right. I talked to a man who is married to a woman with Aspergers and was struck by the similarities in behavior... H's children have both been diagnosed with 'spectrum' disorders, so not completely unlikely. But H would never accept that this could impact his relationships, so no point in going there.

One example of H's behavior that I find bizarre but consistent with a spectrum disorder: His D lived 45 minutes away and didn't have a car. She kept asking H to come have lunch with her on his days off. She was very close to H growing up, and missed him and was lonely and isolated where she lived. He refused, supposedly because he didn't like the area she lived in, which he told me in a disgusted tone whenever I encouraged him to go. This went on for over a year - he never budged. He's now upset that she doesn't stay in touch with him more, and he does not see the connection between his own lack of investment in their R and the lack of closeness between them today.

H and I have plenty of warm feelings for each other and mutual respect in principle - we just can't figure out how to handle conflicts or differences of opinion on an everyday basis. I think that can be learned, and I'm willing to put all of me into that process, but H believes it is what it is, we are who we are, and nothing can be changed. So - he's giving up where I am willing to continue working. I have to accept his choice.

I feel both sorry for him and worried about him. The choices he is making are not going to benefit him, I'm afraid.

But there's many things I will appreciate not having to live with once I'm on my own. I spent 4 months away a couple of years ago and felt more like myself than I had in years, and it was a great feeling. I was hoping I could remain that person when I came back, but it seems I have to fight so hard to be able to be myself in this M. It shouldn't be like that, I think.

There were many signs when I was away that pointed towards staying away... I didn't listen to them. It was like a road was being paved for me. In some ways, I feel like I'm getting direction that keeps pushing me towards a S/D. It's weird, I have never felt that guided before in my life, and it's contrary to what I actually want.

I don't know if I actually answered any of your questions or if I'm just rambling... This is where I'm at today, I just e-mailed my L the S agreement for review.

[Painter]

H came home early from work and we went and got a storage place for my things. I'll store the things I won't need until I get a new home. So I'm just taking what I need for the summer to my son's place. It's less stressful and cheaper that way, and everything will be packed so H can get a container and have it shipped when I need it. It also allows him to add things to the storage facility if he finds things after I leave.

He had several meltdowns over how his plans were disrupted this afternoon, though - he needed a new battery for his watch and that was priority #1 for him. When he was delayed due to me needing something from him, he got very, very mean and angry. Once he got the battery, he was nice and pleasant again. It was interesting to observe in one way.

[Zues126]

Hi painter,

I don't know if the similarities in our situations are due to the universal male/female struggle regarding communication or if our husbands are just made from the same mold..

My husband also said to me that he needed the separation to see if he missed me and son and if he could handle it? (As if it's all about them and no one else friggen matters in their universe)

Same anger involved with the whole legal system.

When you described how he does what is best for him without an ounce of self doubt I felt like you put into words a very accurate description of my husband as well. Truly uncanny. (I believe they are both engineers and only children. I wonder if there is something that contributes to that mind set) I actually copied what you wrote in your 3/31 post and put it in a book I use for notes with my coach! I do not have any background in psychology (except for some introductory classes ) and struggle to understand it.

my husband also does not talk about feelings. Funny that your husband was hyper sensitive to you criticizing him for affair. My husband hypersensitive when I criticized him for waking up consistently at 2 pm instead of helping with family. My husband makes it out like I am verbally abusive for this. I felt frusturated at his inability to compromise and validate and actually listen.

My husband also spewed and became very angry when I brought up reconciliation. I now stopped. If they want it they will let us know. And they have to be so upset that they are really willing to do anything or it simply won't ever work. Really we just have to accept what their actions are saying as much as we don't want to believe it or accept it.

Painter, I have been asking myself this a lot lately... Are they really worth it? Did living with him provide you with such a loving, peaceful existence? or were you often left feeling completely frusturated and invalidated by their inability to abide by rational emotional thought and consideration? i think some people are just not capable of it. In my case, sometimes I wonder if I am hanging on because it's a power struggle. Someone in my divorce care group (just joined) said that God does not want people to be so unhappy and that when spouse is cheating and leaves the marriage we should recognize it as a gift from God to get us out of that relationship.

When I read your situation I get mad at how husband vilifies you and plays victim. I realize my husband does the same. Sometimes I believe him.

Hey Ju and Paint,

No doubt WAS's act poorly. One thing I've wondered about lately is why. Is it that they are immature and horrible people, and that is why they leave? Or is it because they are leaving that hey are immature and horrible people?

We on the DB forums are trying everything we can to become better people. Motivated to avoid the loss of our M, and to try to avoid going through this type of pain ever again. But really, that is motivated by our loss. Before our loss we weren't doing all of this. So are we so awesome for doing this, or is this just a reaction to the loss?

Likewise the WAS doesn't care. They are checked out. They have no motivation for personal growth. Of course they aren't meeting our efforts on personal growth or maturity. That's because they don't care as much as we do.

Does that make them bad people? Is this our chance to judge them as levels below our own evolution?

Then again, they walked. Period. I never would have. Period. So in that one single measure, I do say that they have acted on emotions I wouldn't have. I also separate myself from those that didn't DB and instead had rebound relationships, reacted emotionally, etc. So I have a few things to be proud of. And I personally DO believe that people that walk don't have the same code that I have.

But at the end of the day I think a lot of it is situational too. I think a lot of the things your men are doing are things I probably did pre-BD in one way shape or form. You're just seeing a Zues that is motivated in a different way than I was before, and you're looking at WAS's that might prefer you to lose interest in them versus clinging emotionally.

Not sure I have any conclusions here other than to be careful about making conclusions. Are they bad men? Probably not...other than the one part about leaving in which case, yeah, open season

[JujuB]

Zues

When someone is checked out of a relationship does it make them capable of some pretty pathological actions? Or are those actions due to some type of dysfunction that perhaps we were in denial about and now intensified because they have no motivation to keep it in check?

Throughout my relationship I often wondered if husband was mildly on spectrum. Fits in with his career, mathematical abilities, weird socilization and communication skills, and inexplainable selfishness throughout our entire relationship. Now I started wondering if he is a covert narcissist because I cannot comprehend how else he can do some of things he has done. Not just leaving, and after leaving but many of his actions prior. (Might post on my thread so as not to hijack...but I am fully aware of how this can make me come across as someone looking to play the victim role)

I feel like the typical battle was husband did something I perceived as selfish (or perhaps not working or making decisions as a team unit) and I responded with frusturation and criticism. And we both became resentful.

I am well aware that husband would have good reason to site my negativity and anxiety as my dysfunction or diagnosis.

Husband and I bickered so much even before we were married. I often was frusturated with him and he was with me. I am told that we were night and day. On top of this we did not understand each other's needs and neither of us knew how to communicate. Sometimes I think that we married each other because we were good on paper and no real reason to break up.

I can honestly say that my motivation for personal growth is not to win husband back. It is because I realize how unhappy I have been and because I am realizing that some of the ways I have been brought up is not conducive to happiness and because I do not want my son to be anxious and filled with negativity. But yes, you are right. husband leaving has been the catalyst for me to self reflect and evaluate my contributions to the marital demise.

WAS has no motivation for self growth because they are in denial as to their role. They are unhappy, but they blame it on us and our marriage. That blame enabled them to check out.

I guess the indifference of someone wanting you to lose interest is hard to accept and extremely hurtful. Husbands neglect for past years has been horrible for me. By reviewing his faults and flaws and ways they have hurt us and ways that they were wrong makes it easier to let go.

[Painter]

Zues, do you think anyone can cheat? Do you think we all have it in us, or is there a trait or conviction that makes some do it and others not?

I read in one book that friends have a lot of influence - far more people cheat if their friends don't condemn their actions.

Juju, I can so relate to everything you say, and agree with your observations - and I have all the same questions and no real answers.

I know why resentment has built up in my H and there was really not all that much I could do about it: He never shared what he felt or wanted. I remember asking him so often through the years, 'What do you think? What would you like? How do you feel about that?' and all I'd get was 'I don't know' or 'I don't care' or 'Whatever you want.'

Turns out he had preferences but didn't voice them, and now he is very resentful because he feels I ran everything and always got my way.

On the rare occassions he did have an opinion, I was probably not as careful as I could have been because I believed we could have a discussion about it, negotiate or find a compromise. Every time he didn't get his way completely, he saw it as a personal loss.

I didn't realize how fragile he was emotionally, and that's something I need to be aware of - my assumption that everyone is as assertive as I am.

It's funny, because before we got married, I told him: 'If we ever end up having serious problems, I think it will be due to your lack of assertiveness.' Almost prophetic.

[Painter]

Add-on: I'm packing to leave on Saturday. 15 years dismantled just like that. I'm realizing the more I pack that this is all something I can create again, somewhere else. Nothing is permanent, my home is nothing more than a sand mandala and it's time to sweep it all away.