What I described as a good or great relationship, requires both parties to be able to recognize their own needs and talk about them in a way that the other person can understand.
Unfortunately, many women (and men) are not comfortable doing that. I remember seeing a male counselor earlier in our marriage, who told me that my needs and - you can call it requirements - from H were reasonable and normal, and that I didn't do what many women do, which is expect him to guess what I need and feeling like it doesn't count if I had to tell him.
Unfortunately, he didn't explain to me how h could feel it was criticism when I expressed my needs.
And nobody can fulfill someone else's needs all the time, every day. There will be ups and downs. But if you can fairly regularly fulfill a few important needs for the other person, even if it is just listening - women really want to be listened to and validated, and I think that's one of the hardest things for men to do, because they feel it's either criticism or something they need to fix - I think that's replenishing the clue that holds you together.
Of course you are afraid of being hurt again! It would be very strange if you were not. I am, too. I doubt very much that I will ever experience this relationship that I think can exist.
Thanks Painter.
To add in one more hurdle, it's the 'deal breakers'. I think in most people's mind it works like this: I want this, I expect this, but these things are deal breakers: a, b, c, d, etc.
When I read your description of an ideal marriage I nod, but then I remember that even if I did all of that, my partner would find a deal breaker and call it a day.
If I was a marriage counselor my motto would be: suck it up and live with the deal breakers.
Because here's the thing. There is no perfect marriage. There is no marriage that has good times, bad times, mutual communication, and somehow magically avoids the deal breakers.
Good marriages exist, though rare, but even still, there are deal breakers. But with committed spouses, divorce is a bigger deal breaker.
Getting back to DB theory, so I'm not altogether off on my own path, Michelle talks about how couples that stay together argue about the same things endlessly. At what point do you just shrug and accept that's the way it is? I think that's a requirement for marriage.
For example, I have made it clear that a fulfilling sex life is a requirement for me to not be miserable in my marriage. But I would never have left, even if we never made love again. Because there's one thing worse than a miserable marriage. Divorce. I really believe that people need to stay together. And if they do, then even if people have to accept some deal breakers, at least the underlying presence of a committed person throughout your lifetime is there. And who knows, maybe in 5 years things change. I've seen that happen, but it can't happen if you're writing off your spouse and jumping into the next relationships hoping for a better 'match'.
People that say "I wouldn't want someone to have to stay in a horrible marriage", I say BS. Everyone feels their marriage is horrible a lot of the time. Everyone feels that applies to them. Everyone thinks they are in the 2% that has to leave, that their spouse is the one that is immature and incapable of growth and change and consideration, that is abusive, etc. Obviously anyone would be better than that. Except that this is the same story. Shoot, on these forums I've read thousands of threads, everyone's ex had deal breaker characteristics.
Which is why I am starting to think Sunny isn't a real woman, she's like some artificial intelligence algorithm designed by the forums to give me the illusion that people like her are still out there in the world. When she said that she'd still stay in her marriage, I was like, 'wow, IC may not get it, but I DO'. It's not because you want to, it's because that's what we're here to do in our lives. Couple, raise kids, and exist as a family.'
So another reason I'm pessimistic, is that I'm confident that I bring deal breakers into any relationship with any woman. I'm not sure what they'll be. But they'll be there. If I'm lucky she'll know right away. If I'm not she won't know for 5 years, and it will take another 10 for her resentment to build up until she punts me and explains that she doesn't believe in divorce but we're not compatible because all she wants is a man that doesn't have this deal breaker.
As far as I'm concerned anyone that wants to be in a relationship with me needs to sign up for an antisocial abusive angry unstable destitute disrespectful alcoholic pornographic vulgar gambling degenerate that puts her absolute last. If she can handle that then let's get married, then maybe she'll be pleasantly surprised. Maybe.
Oh, my, I think I may have gotten carried away again...
Love you guys. If I stay sane through this, and that is to be determined, you each get an assist.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I am enjoying this thread. I love the movie references, I admire you standing up for marriage and the hard work and things that must be accepted in order to go on. I think our society has made it the norm to just toss everything out when we feel it is not in perfect working order.
I won't go on to much as you have very eloquently written out some great points.
have a great evening.
Me 46 Former W 46 D19 D7 BD Feb 2016 WAW moves out 4/16/16 D final 6/1/2017
It's time for me to start changin' the way I look at the world......and at myself. ~James Howlett aka Wolverine
I believe in M truly I do, you can never stop another from leaving and in order to protect yourself you may have to D.
In my case my M was so dysfunctional that there was a danger of physical harm. Hanging on in order to stay M isn't great if one of the pair ends up harmed and the other prosecuted.
Some men and women shouldn't be M, and they M anyway. Some shouldn't be parents and they do that and abandon their children.
So I do believe in M, my first H died, my second D me for reasons of exploring his sexual needs and H3 the less said really.
If H3 had worked on his abuse then yes I would have stayed M, I have gone passed that point and can no longer stay where I will be harmed.
I am in no place to move on either into a new R, so I stay single.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I love the title of the thread! Makes me want to watch The hobbit and lotr all over again. Or read them if I can find my copies.
Lately, I have been feeling a lot like the elves. Very weary, like I don't belong in this new world with the new realities where what I hold dear dont matter anymore.
Anyways.
Painter, I live in a place where fault-based D is practised. That didn't stop xh from cheating on me. He knew my soft spot (erm, him?) and called my bluff. He knew that I wouldn't go for the jugular. And I didnt. I didn't fight him for alimony.
Rules can't govern feelings or cheating, although they can make cheaters hurt. Well, unless their betrayed spouses are soft- hearted idiots like me.
So there you go.
You can call me Dory/ Grl.
As a wise fish once sang,"Just keep swimming!"
It's no use to go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.
Which is why I am starting to think Sunny isn't a real woman, she's like some artificial intelligence algorithm designed by the forums to give me the illusion that people like her are still out there in the world. When she said that she'd still stay in her marriage, I was like, 'wow, IC may not get it, but I DO'. It's not because you want to, it's because that's what we're here to do in our lives. Couple, raise kids, and exist as a family.'
But you see Zues, this is the whole thing. There ARE women like me in the world, you just have to get out there and look. I really don't think I'm anything unusual. I'm old fashioned, yes, and a little on the June Cleaver side. That's probably a product of my Southern upbringing and being an "old" Gen-Xer. But, I'm by no means unique. And that's why I balk when you write off any possibility of a future relationship for yourself because of societal trends. There's someone for you, but she isn't going to appear at your door. Especially if it's closed and bolted.
This thread puts a smile on my face! Thank you everyone.
Zues,
I am with you! I will continue to improve myself after my D. The key is stabilizing myself and kids. Then reflect and see what happens next. I would prefer to be with the one I know and all her faults long term.
H-46 XW-38 T-7 M-6 S-9,8,8,6,4 S 11/30/15, I filed 12/8/15 EA 2/1/16 D dismissed 3/24/16 PA 3/18/16 confirmed 4/22/16 XW files for D 4/1/16 - D final 11/17/16 Finally moving forward...
I in the last week have had to do a time line for the r.
When I write out the whole last year of what happened and when it was one major deal breaker after another, in the sense that he was threatening me with harm verbally, he was acting in a way that covertly threatened harm ie having loaded guns in the bedroom and under the seat of his car. He wanted wills written with me leaving him sole benificary to all my worlds goods including the child he assaulted. He wanted to holiday in remote off radar locations where murders have been committed and no body ever found.
That crazed train knew no bounds. ^^^ I'm open to anyone who says there is no way I should have left, because at that point with an ow, I was all out of options. Did I wish it different yes. Did I try to make if different oh yes, I was almost hospitalised early on when I came here because I was mm from a compete emotional break.
I hurt so bad I couldn't even read any advice here without sobbing. It gets better we can all understand the regret.
The best advice ever given is is ok, your feelings are yours it takes as long as it takes and what ever the time line it will be right for you. Don't stress give your self permission.
M 46 h54 Both married before T 11y Bd 2/14 I must see where ow leads! Ms 18 hs 26
ggrass, when I said I don't believe deal breakers it excludes infidelity and loaded guns. I wish more people in your sitch had the strength to protect themselves.
I just also wish that's what it took before people threw in the towel.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
