The Fight for Self

[Cadet]

I click it and it is a song by The Five Stairsteps called O OH Child.

I was 16 when this song peaked at number 8 on the charts.
Basically a one hit wonder for this group.

Yes it brings back some high school memories for me!

[CT1118]

CT1118 --
Sorry to get stuck on details but ... the above text you posted was confusing to me. Are there some typos in there?
Your W dropped the 2nd bomb, right? Not you?
The email you mention ... was in response to your W dropping the bomb, right?
If you did drop bombs on your wife, what were they?

ForGump - no, no typos, I try to keep it short sometimes, but may not always be best for communicating understanding. All below is scattered through my old threads, but happy to update in brief w/ a timeline:
1. 1st BD I consider when I told W (who became WW only hours later)that I knew about and had proof of her A and knew who OM was. This was end of Feb. 2016.
2. WW had told me she would end A to work on herself while we were S, told many lies to make me believe this. I tried to believe WW thinking I had to trust her at some point.
3. First weekend of July while on a family trip WW's behavior got very urgent and strange. Triggered my Spidey-sense in a way I had not felt since the month before 1BD. Tried to resist urges, but had not found this place yet and had no support network...ended up going onto OM's social media pages (WW had blocked me and has high security, but his dumb ass had not and has no security, and neither of them knew I have multiple social media logins for professional reasons - you block names, not people). I saw OM post some general thing and WW had commented that they would do dinner and her comment was about 10 minutes after I dropped her off that day. That night S4 and I were getting supper and I live close to WW, saw OM truck in her parking area.
4. Felt like I was in deja vu all over again. Found this place - immediately began seeking answers as to whether or not I should tell WW I knew she was lying. Had no education.
5. Spent time here and elsewhere educating/training myself. Seemed a better alternative than jail given how desperately I wanted to slowly break the bones inside OM's body.
6. Struggled for a couple weeks on what to do, ultimately began 180's read DR/DB book, posted & read here. Ultimately it was a response from Roist & Sandi which answered my question - generally, if I felt I had to tell WW about the lies and the A continuing, know if would be my choice for me and be prepared for consequences (they both encouraged the other direction with my choice, but made it clear it was a choice).
7. Meanwhile, I was seeing affect from my 180's. After a few days of 180, WW wrote me an email that was very loving, but no apology or acceptance of actions. Reading that combined with a comment WW made about my positive changes (why didn't you do this when we were together") flipped my switch.
8. This was 2nd BD - me telling her, yes again. Spent a few days thinking of how I would present. Wrote an email to say I was tired of lying, I know WW is lying, WW is free to make own choices, I will no longer be assisting beyond S4 matter, etc. It was much less curt than that. WW called literally right as I was going to hit send. I ended up explaining everything over the phone. The bombs were: me accepting what I had done in the M very briefly with a single apology to a 4 sentence paragraph, me stating that WW is free to figure life out on here own and I cannot stand the constant affection w/ no effort to move back towards an R, me stating I knew about ongoing A and could not be subjected to constant lies, me stating S4 is asking questions I cannot answer, me out.
9. Hours later, email comes in from WW accepting responsibility, explaining how WW does not know or understand what is happening to her, mentions other things, apologizes, loves me, does not deserve me, etc. (these are the three emails I refer to above)
10. I remain doing what I was doing before, but going more dim. And I felt a hell of a lot better.
11. 3 days later - late night phone call from WW crying, apologizing.
12. Here I am, journey continues.

[AndrewP]

Did that answer it? I hope its all true FWIW. I am very much still in the same state of mess that all here are, I am just a real obsessive person about the need for arming myself with information.

CT118 - I'm glad you directed me over to your thread. I'm impressed - you are even more of a planner / thinker / researcher than I am and you document it well. Like with any research it has to be taken in context but it made me feel good to read it.

Thanks my friend - I have never had another human being level me like my WW has. And despite the fking demons from Hell which rose up to try and take me, here I stand.

This reminds me of the night that WW said she was leaving and we actually talked more or less. One thing I said that appeared to have an impact on her and definitely is how I felt was me saying "I have stood in the FIRES for you. And they BURNED!

Yesterday part of my own obsessive research was to ask the internet (which rarely tells me the truth) about the OM perspective. The question I believe was "why will my girlfriend not leave her husband". A bunch of interesting reading popped out which largely agreed with your research that when a WW drags her feet leaving that the odds are large that she never will end up with OM. Mind you, the phrasing of my query biased the results but it made me feel good to stand in the fire for a while longer.

It also sounds like you are being very effective in your DBing - even though you are standing in the fire right next to the rest of us. There was a YouTube video that recently made the rounds on social media of a speech to a graduating class of US Marines. In it was the story of them standing in the mud and being yelled at but because they were in the mud "together" it was bearable. I'm glad to share my mud with you and all the others here even though I wish I was home and dry.

Thanks a lot - perhaps you can get a part-time gig with MWD later co-writing the "LBH for Dummies" or more accurately a "LBH Guide For Obsessive Men Who Do Too Much Research" book

[CT1118]

Hahahahaahahaa! Thanks Andrew P. Seriously, I'm glad I have thread that people can joke on.

So as promised and then I'm out to walk my dog. Asked earlier:
"I almost wish that there was an "idiot's guide to WW" that would outline the steps that a WW goes through along with the steps that the LBH has (grief, denial etc) complete with a couple of 2X4s for him to whack himself with every time that he thinks "no - this is different". AndrewP from another thread

I'll give what I found. I think best to outline stages first, but feel certain these have already be written somewhere else in the MLC forum. Anyway - conglomeration of most common things I read, not my interpretaion, not from single source...and don't stop going elsewhere for your own information. PS, majority of my info based on men w/ MLC spouse, but its all kinda universal. Many different monikers for the stages, but again, I am using the ones that seemed to pop up the most.

Stages of MLC:
1. Denial: They deny many things like age, attractiveness, self value, the un/happiness at work, death of someone, their accomplishments, the value of their spouse/M, unresolved childhood issues, addiction, - list goes on. Basically what negative things do people not want to accept about themselves gets denied. One thing that does seem to be realized is one's own mortality and the fact that many years are behind them - then that gets denied via the need to move on/up/out/start exercising/buy unaffordable crap, - fill it in people, list went on.

2. Anger: Angry at what they have been handed in life. None of it is good enough. None of it to their expectations. They feel trapped, suffocated, can't breath, etc. Begin to think if they could run-away, escape, do something exciting and make changes they could be happy. Often feel need to be alone to do this. This is stage where A begins on some level. They look for outside sources to blame and self-justification for hurtful actions begins.

3. Replay: A's in full swing, MLC feels entitled regardless of who they hurt - it's "time for me" to have fun/be free/live life (basically fill in whatever self aggrandizing bullshit you want here and that's what the MLC is using for an explanation). They do not understand what is going on. May not be able to explain their own behavior. May not know why they are running or want to go, but it is what they feel so they act. Usually stage where A is discovered by or disclosed to spouse.

Replay can be a long stage and happen again, ex. WW/WH dumps 1st OM/OW and gets another. Or WW/WH sleep around w/ many partners. I read in a few places, replay can continue for years w/ some people. Hope not for anyone reading this.

4. Depression: Party time effects wearing down and reality glimpses. MLC realizes or starts to that they have not faced their real issues and they feel like failures. Guilt compounds, negative thought overtakes, self-esteem gets lower. Start to realize all of the people left burning in their wake.

5. Withdrawal: Coming face to face with issues. Will either seek help and seek to reconnect but could easily rebel and go back to replay or tell LBS to end marriage and reject any deserve of love. Called the covert stage as it could resemble earlier stages and/or MLC could go backwards and refuse to face issues. Where LBS will be challenged most, should stand and gently encourage.

6. Acceptance: Fully account for their actions, finally face fears, apologies happen, must accept what they did and what happened, will struggle with temptation to go back to other stages. Maybe family/friends/Spouse/Kids is still there, maybe not.

Ok, start with that. Seriously though, consider this a survey, dig into science or psych locations if you want deeper. I can do my best to explain if asked, I welcome additions/corrections. But please don't base your future off this alone I am no expert. Also, there is a TON of overlap items between an MLC and other reasons that may be real and ultimately why we may be here.

Remember Occam's Razor (or don't if this is your 1st hearing of it): when down to a few choices, the simplest answer is usually the most accurate answer. More assumptions make things more complex, make chances of that being correct more unlikely.

[AndrewP]

Remember Occam's Razor (or don't if this is your 1st hearing of it): when down to a few choices, the simplest answer is usually the most accurate answer. More assumptions make things more complex, make chances of that being correct more unlikely.

I've heard the phrase Occam's Razor but never really knew what it meant. People like me that tend to over-analyze things do often bypass the simplest answer which has caused me to be hit by more than one 2X4 here.

My mind-reading tells me that WW is in stage 4, others would tell me that she's in stage 3 and the reality is that I have no real answer.

I often wish that W was lurking here and reading all of this as well. At one point I actually told her about this site but she was in a deep fog at that point and it was probably all just "blah blah blah" to her. I made the mistake early on of bombarding her with research and things to read. Fortunately I realized within 12 hours that it was a truly stupid thing to do and stopped.

Thanks so much for posting this summary / guideline. We do all need to remember though that none of this is cast in stone and the script doesn't always get followed and we can't count on "anything". But still a scrap of hope that doesn't come from W is a scrap that I didn't have before. One of the greatest things about a community like this is knowing that you aren't alone standing in the mud.

[CT1118]

OK, walked dog and went to grocery store. Not really great GAL, but I take what I can get. So next part of the question - what does WW go through, i.e. what does a WW experience during an MLC? Ok, again, some overlap w/ men in MLC, but I did to try very hard to get this information as specific to a woman in an MLC and there does not seem to be much in the world. For that matter, if you look up affairs, most of that stuff seems to be geared at men cheating. So fellas, we do own the mean statistical value on these.

OK, what should we understand about what a WW experiences during an MLC? (regardless of stages I'm thinking?) :

- MLC is engulfed in negativity, anger, confusion, and does not think clearly. They hear only blame for themselves and have only blame for others in return.

- MLC has a dependent personality. Will force LBS into a caregiver role and will become angrier at LBS at themselves and LBS as the LBS grows stronger.

- Not able in anyway to show emotional support for LBS or what they experience.

- Practice attention seeking behavior, possibly because as a child or in teens they receive no/limited attention from someone who needed to provide it; positive or negative attention toward the MLC will be received better than no attention.

- Very selfish and very self-centered about "finding themselves"

- Not able to trust people, including LBS or themselves. Looking for a partner who can reflect back heroism.

- Life is full of lies, deception, betrayal, and manipulation. Life becomes harder and harder to maintain w/ the superficial world MLC has created. They cannot handle the stress. They avoid taking responsibility until the point they are ready for repent & remorse.

- Very low self-esteem; it is much easier to lie to themselves and everyone they know than it is to confront their problems.

- Many have an EA which becomes a PA at some point. The A will distract them from life events such as: pain of childhood, abandonment or abuse, loss of close family or friends, aging, loss of looks, loss of health, job dissatisfaction, stress, parenting maters, finances (keep listing your own here). MLC will not realize how they are causing pain to themselves, others, or how they are over-complicating their life. They are self-absorbed and only care about obtaining their own happiness using only the methods they believe will deliver happiness.

- The OM will know nothing of the WW's flaws or personal history. The OM will be lied to about the truth of the WW's M and who the LBS was/is as a person. These lies will fit the WW's newly revised personal history. Thus, the A is nothing more than a fantasy for both WW and OM, built on falsities. The OM may also be a flawed person, but is often chosen b/c the WW is able to outshine them in looks, success, and power. The MLC WW wants someone they can control and/or take care of and OM will be along for the ride. OM is usually of weak character and integrity. MLC WW does not want someone who is superior to LBS, they want superiority over OM so the MLC ego will remain unchallenged and undamaged. It will most likely collapse as the WW MLC realizes their OM is not suited for long term companionship. At this point WW MLC will do one of three things: some will go home to M & family, some will become and stay miserable/depressed, and some will repeat the process thinking results will be different w/ next OM and/or partner.

- Over 50% of WW stated that their OM's were less attractive than their LBS, but 90% said motivation for A was driven by fact that OM listens to them and makes them feel more appreciated than their LBS. (I think this could cross into and/or away from the MLC condition. It does not seem homogeneous to just WW MLC's).

- WW MLC is a control freak. Often complain about loss of control or being controlled by LBS during the M. Yet, MLC feels no control over their own behavior while in an MLC. They determine that if they can control others and their environment they will be whole again. Thus will request a need for space, a space of their own, or a desire to be alone. How do they try to maintain or gain control? leaving home, ignoring family/friends/others, having an A, being mean, being nice, changing jobs, etc. It is only when the WW MLC realizes that they have no control over others behavior that a break through can occur. LBS should set boundaries in a "firm and loving way" to illustrate they cannot be controlled.

- MLC is a form of depression. Depression is anger turned inward and anger is a large part of an MLC's journey. Anger is a path of least resistance. Anger comes from pain and disappointment. The more an LBS can remember this, the more sympathetic they can become toward their WW with MLC.

- WW MLC is indifferent and only focuses upon self. They only want fun & freedom - the irony is that they become dependent upon two men - the OM & the LBS - which is not freedom. The WW in MLC will not notice the pain or the lies they deliver to both partners during their crisis.

- Have a low self worth. Focus only on external experiences to ignore internal problems. MLC is an existential crisis. It is all about the person in it.

- WW MLC is emotionally driven which leads to poor decision making.

- MLC is poor with money. Might use it to impress OM or to buy things/services to "feel" better. Spending is another form of distraction.

- Can be very abusive to LBS and will deny the truth of what they are doing to LBS. Will want them to "move on" only to alleviate their own guilt.

- M or FM MLC can experience sexual dysfunction during crisis alone or w/ OM/OW. Men will have erection or performance issues, women may have irregular menstrual cycles or symptoms of perimenopause.

- WW LBS will may become possessive and jealous is they suspect LBS has moved onto another woman.

- Self-pity can come from childhood issues. Shows up in idea that they do not deserve love and this is a symptom of past abuse. Expressed as "why don't you date others" why don't you move on" "why don't you hate me" etc.

- MLC will be very sensitive to criticism in all forms from all realms of life - boss/LBS/OM/friends/family. This attacks low self-esteem and MLC will attempt to distance from criticism.

- Can attempt to create conflict w/ LBS in an effort justify their own horrible behavior.

- WW MLC will try to manipulate LBS into seeing things as they do by trying to alter perceptions, patterns, and values.

- MLC will withdrawal or abandon which imitates behavior learned in childhood. It is easier to run from reality than to face challenge of accomplishing dreams.

- An MLC will go through changes that may or may not be distinct.

- Going through an MLC is equated psychologically to going through a second childhood.

- Statistically, most WW MLC's will find their way back to what they once felt was important in life.

- eighty percent of marriages survive an MLC. If the WW/WH is not in an MLC that may only be revealed in time.

- In an MLC, the LBS is only a contributor and is not the cause for the WW/WH which is a distinct difference for other reasons spouses abadon M's.



Alright, that took some effort for me to input. My planned GAL's were abolished tonight by some bad weather earlier and friend's schedules, so I didn't mind using this instead. I do hope it helps. I would suggest, the above are not necessarily facts as they are scientific and statistical observations. The human condition is a fascinating and strange experience.

[CT1118]

- MLC has a dependent personality. Will force LBS into a caregiver role and will become angrier at LBS at themselves and LBS as the LBS grows stronger.

- Not able in anyway to show emotional support for LBS or what they experience.

Hell, read this twice, still left errors.

So to clarify top one - ...MLC will become angrier at the LBS and themselves as the LBS becomes stronger. IMHO, this relates to the control issues.

Bottom one - MLC is not able to show emotional support for the LBS or what the LBS is experiencing.

Ask if you find more, I will do my best

[AndrewP]

- Self-pity can come from childhood issues. Shows up in idea that they do not deserve love and this is a symptom of past abuse. Expressed as "why don't you date others" why don't you move on" "why don't you hate me" etc.

CT - I'm glad that you at least had some time away with your puppy from the intense focus that this forum can put on people like us. A lot of the song you were singing here I could come in with the harmony. I know that my W was sexually abused as a child even though we never discussed it. All of the "you deserve better" etc were phrases that I heard pre-BD.

Thank you yet again for your analysis and research. I've been noticing as well that you've been very supportive with a lot of detail on other people's threads but I also know that you are a relatively new member of our sad little community. I hope you can find some focus for yourself away from staring at the minutia and supporting others. We're here for you too buddy.

[CT1118]

OK, I want to answer the full question tonight, at least as best as I can. Tired. Hmmm...I say tired like sleep is actually going to happen. Been 5 months, still wake up w/ bad dreams and only get about 5 hours. OK, I'm scaring the new DB'rs.

Last part of the initial question I do believe. Finsih quote of Andrewp - "the steps that the LBH has (grief, denial etc) complete with a couple of 2X4s for him to whack himself with every time that he thinks 'no - this is different'".

First off - great point w/ your jest AndrewP: and this is my take...nothing anyone here is going through is different. I have read that in a number of threads that state, I'm paraphrasing..."this is different..". Shocking evidence exists: MLC's are normal. D is normal. Having an A is normal. Falling out of love is normal. Realizing your spouse is not for you is normal. Whatever you got, it is most likely statistically normal. If your WW/WH became a serial killer, touche', you got me. Otherwise normal. What is beautiful about normal? Normal has company and normal has explanations.

What I found/notated for stages of the spouse of an MLC:

Disclaimer - To be honest, trying to find commonality in this area was very difficult. It was even more difficult to find information specific to men who are dealing with women in an MLC which specifically includes an A. So, that said, unlike things above this post, below is a mix of information influenced by my interpretation of what I read b/c I did not find some really good evidence which possessed uniformity. I have caveats above, but especially here.


1. Shock/Denial: I found these almost always as first and second in the data. Shock was always 1 and denial 2. I don't buy it. I had denial first in the fact that something felt "off", yet I still believed WW (W at time - sure business trip have fun baby!), but I promise all of you when I saw WW's texts and emails to OM following my continuous undeniable suspicion, there was only shock - denial was cleared up real quick based on what I saw. Not sure how shock could possibly come first. So, I combined the two for the first stage. If I may be so bold - you deny what you do not wish to believe, you are in shock when you see its true. Yes, initial shock may lead you to deny truth,etc - same thing, one category.

2. Anger/Grief/Pity: I think this one depends on who you are at your core. I found different answers. Some get angry immediately - marriage is over or f you, and some are just mad about the lies/neglect, etc, spouse out move on or S. Some beg and plead "baby don't leave me!", Some are in the "why me, I'm a good guy, I did the best I could". So I am not sure which is correct. For me, I showed anger, hell, I think anger ran my show for most of the time. - but I had grief alone and I never recall feeling pity. But, I found it listed as a stage in a few places so I listed here. Put them all together b/c I could not find a reasonable way to order as if they were germane to all people and especially not with a chronological order.

3. Bargaining/Depression/Insight: Again, found different names. All seem to have a place. Maybe you bargain with God/family/WW/WH - I will change, I promise, if you just I will...you get it, so some do that. Some check out - sadness, loss - who will love me? I don't want to die alone. I will never have a family, etc. Insight - this is my fault, what I did wrong was, i get it I was bad you are right to leave. Various combinations existed and I was not sure one more correct in the other. Seemed to me like these followed what I grouped in #2 rather naturally.

4. Acceptance/Vision: Again, this last part was mixed up. I used the words I found most, but I think better would be "Fight or Flight". So acceptance was you are done, s/he left move on. Vision was s/he may still want you - hang for a bit and see what goes on. To me, this would be the stage where you have gotten your whits back and you make a choice to either stand out and fight or you decide none of this stuff is worth it.
5. I think this is where you either work through it or you or don't work through it - be that recovery or reconciliation.

The majority of the medical explanations (which I thought lacked some of the humanity of the reasons I listed above) went like this. Also, they seemed to be black/white you either had one or the other or you transitioned in the same stage:

1. Trust vs. Doubt
2. Hope vs. Shame (embarrassment)
3. Empowerment vs.Guilt
4. Action vs. Inaction
5. New Self vs. Sick Self
6. Intimacy vs. Isolation
7. Purpose vs. Passivity
8. Integrity vs. Despair

So, I hope you see, this part was very muddy. I have read here where people think loosing a spouse equates to bereavement like a death or elsewhere when machismo rules the day and you just say "done" and that's it. I cannot agree with either extreme. Death is final, MLC. A's, and D's are not. Likewise, bravado is final in an egotistical way - if you are a person who believes in saving ego before all else, bravado/machismo will be the 2nd stage you hit and it will be final.

Again, and especially for this part. Dig deeper if you need to. Ask me about if you want. I am going to grab my 5 hours or whatever sleep is for me tonight. Will have a very rare cigarette treat first (I began indulging again after 6 years when S began - need to add into goals to stop, so bad). Hope all this is helpful at best, a time killer at worst.

[CT1118]

PS did not add what is most assuredly last part to AndrewP's request - the 2x4's an LBS can "whack" themselves with. Sorry brother - have to be tomorrow. Mission assigned, will complete. Still in the fight, the fight for self. And me writing helps me more for me than it helps any of you who read what I write - believe that.