The Fight for Self

[sandi2]

Listen guys, almost all WW's want their H to be their gay friend. You have a choice of filling the same position that anyone else in the universe can fill.......and be just her friend. Or, you can fill the position that is uniquely designed for only one person......and be her H. However, as long as she's wayward, being her friend doesn't work. Notice that I said if she's a WAYWARD wife.

One reason it doesn't work is b/c your definition and her definition of "friends" is totally different. You would see it from the standpoint of eventually winning her back into the MR. However, she would use you for everything she could find......I'm talking about abusing the so called friendship. And the first time you felt tired of being taken advantage of and tried to back away from whatever she's wanting (babysitting, a shoulder to cry on about hard her life is, hang out if nothing else better, a Mr. Fix-it for free, or a zillion other ways she'll take advantage)......and she'll throw it back in your face so quick you'll get seasick, "I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO BE FRIENDS!" Oh, she'll make you pay.

What she really wants is for you to be sitting on ready every time her little head thinks of something you can do for her. That is the WW's definition of YOU being her friend. Oh, and it never works the other way around.

You can act friend-"ly", like you would be toward a nosey neighbor you don't particularly like. You know the type. When you see them outside, you just wave, smile, and keep on walking.

So when can a man be his WW's friend? When she repents, respects him, and they are reconciling. Think of the three R's. Repent, Respect, Reconcile.

[Surfer]

CT/FG/RSG. All in similar boats.

I do wonder, why is this up for debate? You (we all) will either be closer to or further apart from your spouses in due course (you might dance back and forth - you have before so why not again?). Fact is, you are going to be on a journey with your W until they put dirt on that box (as per Cadets(?) comment) like it or not. Hows that for a cheery thought! Get me the noose, the stool and the goosefat!

I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT. For defo. But she it temp. checking you big time. Keep the temp. cool. Not cold, cool. You are doing an amazing job. It's not just about how you are doing though - it's about how she is doing. She is taking the bait. Me, FG, RSG all have a different sitch. and part is driven by the W responding differently and our acting differently. For example, I feel my wife is DBing me with no contact etc at present. Might never change -in fact if it doesn't change forget the noose....

This is perhaps the quote that did it "you don't get me as your H, you wanted space and so do I".

Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it. I mean if you were really out there picking the ideal mate, given the history - really? This particular brand. If you were advising your child who was picking their spouse (not meaning to be rude about anyones W BTW) - I mean really. So yes being very cool right now seems perfect.

It all looks so clear in your Stiches as I read them. Yet mine confuses me. My DB Coach says do the nice things (i.e. should I pick them up from the airport etc - sounds like eating the entire cake shop not just a slice to me), yet on here I see a more distant approach. There's a fine line between lovingly detaching and being cold.

I might just go "in Character" so I 'know' how to act - I am thinking Arthur Fonzarelli!

[Surfer]

Sandi,

No punches pulled. Perfect.

My nosey neighbour knows I think (he/she) is a total prat. They know that because I really struggle to hide my emotions - rubbish at Poker. How does that work, it sounds like CT is doing a great job of being himself and coming across as happy - without looking like he is thinking "get off my doorstep [neighbour] you don't belong here and you are trouble!".

Also, I gather from DB Coach that its all about lovingly detaching, yet still doing the things they appreciate etc. You seem to differ a bit on this. Can you clarify please - as my DB coach keeps telling me not to try mind read and predict what she is thinking? At present my WW has is definitely very dark on me.

Confused on these two points.

Thank you.

[CT1118]

I just wanted to pop in here and let you know you really inspire me with this DBing stuff. As someone who just started this journey I find reading your posts quite helpful when I'm feeling like I've handled a certain situation poorly. And I think someone else said it does sound like one way or another you're on the right path.

Thanks maybs - I really appreciate that. Chime in anytime.

But how much of a friend can I be?

ForGump - I am fairly certain I stole my answer to that question from someone's thread (I think RSG's). If she wanted to be my friend at a later date it would be a friendship that needs to be built. So for me, building myself right now. You like Pearl Jam too - "I'm a lucky man To count on both hands The ones I love" I have enough friends right now.

RSG - tried to QQ you and it was only pasting script language, so the old fashioned way:
"The last thing either of us has said in any relation to "us" is her saying "I think I'm just going to take a break from men for a while" on my birthday a month ago in the middle of an argument. Kinda pissed me off, but I'm over that."

I heard that EXACT SAME STATEMENT on father's day. Pissed me off at the time, over that too, actually forgot about until I read your post. About 50% certain at this point you and I might be married to the same woman who is leading a double life.

Listen guys, almost all WW's want their H to be their gay friend.

You can act friend-"ly", like you would be toward a nosey neighbor you don't particularly like. You know the type. When you see them outside, you just wave, smile, and keep on walking.

Sandi - sublimely put as always and thank you. I admit to flawed behavior before I got here, but I was also lied to and made to believe we could work things out: WW told me we could work on things yet she was happy to not be with men for the time being, WW sent me semi-nude texts of herself and quite a few of them, WW came over a number of times and cleaned my apartment, WW would cook and deliver me food. My response was not as gay friendship, it was as a dude being lied to and acting accordingly - normally a woman sending me almost naked pictures and cooking me food has been a very positive sign in my life. I fell for it. Did not know what I did not know. Got here after finding out I was being lied to, read your stuff, felt your hammer. Did a great many of the things you said to do,certainly have adopted your viewpoints as well as prophesied them among the tribe even if I don't use them all very well. I credit your work w/ highest regard and appreciate you speaking up.

I see WW more as the annoying co-worker than the nosey neighbor. I can ignore my neighbors, I have to do business w/ my co-workers, but point received.

This is perhaps the quote that did it "you don't get me as your H, you wanted space and so do I".
Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it.

Thanks Surfer - WW already rolled the dice choosing to risk a life w/out me on her end. I do not see the DB/180/LRT as much risk for me, given the situation. I see it as my choice to use this tactic(s) until I choose otherwise. That does not mean hope will ever go away until the dirt is tossed on my box, but I do realize apathy is a shovel to bury myself with; apathy is a risk. I never saw this coming, although looking back at some of my old posts I can read where I started to feel it. Hoping I can choose to come out of it, because I have never felt so little about her in all my years of knowing her, i.e. why I am confused.

[RSG]

If you go read my thread, just had a big moment.

Yeah, I did say that about a friendship. Destroying my and my son's family, cheating on us and showing no remorse, abandoning your child for 6mos, all the rationalizations....it'll take a while for me to want to be around you and be interested if a D is final. Not to mention the idea of you actively "out there."

"I'm taking a break from men" is such a ridiculous statement. Ugh! These broads just need to be shaken until their brains get back to normal lol.

I can see the gay friend crap sometimes, but I answer it with indifference and that I'm doing fine without you. I will NOT be your buddy while you put yourself out there. You can go to HE77 with that stuff! HA. I'm demanding more respect everyday. I was a doormat for too damn long and am finding myself again. I'm a strong, good, honorable man and will not let anyone in my life who treats me like dirt.

Sandi is gold. I read some of her stuff again last night and today. It really helps me when I'm struggling to keep on, and feel like I'm being a jerk. I haven't shown anger in a LONG time. Instead, I've been polite and that's about it.....because that's all the situation calls for at this time.

[CT1118]

RSG, just read your three things on your thread. You sir have pulled me out of a head strong jam more times than you will ever know.

[CT1118]

Feeling more detached today than the indifference which sat on me for four days. Got back thinking about how dangerous apathy is. There is no love in apathy. True I was not feeling it, but I know its in me, even if a bit blurry right now.

Had to re-think. A WW moves back and forth due to the intense sense of guilt swinging into self-justification. It has nothing to do with me and everything to do with WW. WW has said she still loves me more times than I can count, but just as Sandi points out that a WW's idea of friends is different, so is their idea of love - because a WW does not know how to love. My W knew how, but my W is gone right now. Everything my WW does right now is about her anger over her past and how she has carried an anger so long and so deep into her life.

The hard part has been identifying what is in me, which made me what to reach out, to respond, to hold onto. To begin to repair those things and trigger new growth of the self within. I can do nothing for my WW... I can only do for myself. This journey for me is about wellness and healing. It is easy to be LBS and believe that the WW is the one with all of the healing to do in order to be right again. True, the WW has a lot of healing to do. But I have had to go through plenty myself.

A year and a half ago I tore three of my ribs out of the cartilage on my back. I have never felt pain so horrible in all of my life and my tolerance is pretty high for pain. I screamed uncontrollably for almost 30 minutes - was not a choice. When I was finally able to get to a doctor, he said the intense pain would subside in a week or two, the occasional pain would last for a month, and that the overall injury would be about six months to heal, even then re-injury was possible in life. Then he said something I will never forget. "Be careful, you will feel better before you are better".

I think that's the world I am in now.

[sandi2]

I do wonder, why is this up for debate?

The DB coaches encourage being their friend. As I have said before, they don't separate those who are wayward. I won't say that I was the first one on the board to say not to be friends with the wayward wife, b/c I don't actually know for a fact. I don't remember seeing anything opposing the idea of being buddies, unless it was Puppy (I can't remember). He had well knowledge of the WW mindset and what she is capable of doing. Anyway, there were very few back then that even used the term "wayward". I resented that word, terribly, b/c it stomped on my WW feelings too much. But I got over it.

I see H's who get the no-buddy system down pat, but then when he reconciles....or is in the process of working on the reconciliation, he doesn't seem to realize that that is when he can begin building the friendship with her. You see, I am not against H's & W's being best friends. I am against a H trying to be her BFF when she is wayward. He cannot nice her back from waywardness. She disrespects him! I don't understand why men don't see that you can't be friends with people that resent and disrespect you! You have to have the WW's respect before you can be her friend.....or she will eat you alive.

You (we all) will either be closer to or further apart from your spouses in due course (you might dance back and forth - you have before so why not again?).

This is why timing is so important. The H has to use tough love with a WW. He cannot be some soft marshmallow who doesn't have the guts to stand up for himself. He has to take charge of his life and stop acting as if he is her employee. He has to be a leader over his own family and home. If she has been something resembling Hitler, then she isn't going to meekly hand over her power. She will give him trouble every way she can. He has to stand firm and not back down to fear, her bullying, her anger, or whatever. He has to firmly establish his role in the family, the home, and his M. He cannot afford to compromise his standards and beliefs just to keep her from divorcing him. She can respect it or she can leave. And he must not be afraid of her leaving. At least, don't show her he's afraid of her leaving him!

Now maybe to you that is a picture of getting further apart from your spouse, but to me it is what needs to take place IN ORDER to get closer. Don't you see? She has to learn to respect you, first, before you can get closer. You cannot get around it. Women are wired to where they have to feel respect for their H before they can desire him as a lover. Now, you tell me......is that so complicated? Just b/c that's not the way guys are.....you should still be able to understand the formula for her.

I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT.

Sure, it works! B/c it helps the H to detach and let go. So what if she gets mad and throws a fit? Who cares? She uses her anger to control! Women who throw fits and bully, do it to control. If you guys have not learned that by now, please jot it down. When she sees she cannot bully her H to get her way, then she'll try a different way to get it. (But that's another lesson).

FG, RSG all have a different sitch. and part is driven by the W responding differently and our acting differently. For example, I feel my wife is DBing me with no contact etc at present.

All W's may not respond exactly alike, but if they are wayward, their goal is the same. Want to know what it is? To be free of everything she deems made her unhappy, and to go out there and find the life/man that fulfills her needs. Her selfishness will override any nice-guy attempts to convince her to give the M another chance. Selfish desires trump everyone and everything. So, however she may respond to him, he'd better be tough enough to handle her.

Been thinking, perhaps the way to deal with it is to truly accept, and not want a life without the W? Not sure how much pushing for it is a good idea but.....perhaps that is it. I mean if you were really out there picking the ideal mate, given the history - really? This particular brand. If you were advising your child who was picking their spouse (not meaning to be rude about anyones W BTW) - I mean really. So yes being very cool right now seems perfect.

You make a good point. It is so sad to see how most H's will spend all their emotional and physical strength trying to make things work with his WW, and when he is completely exhausted and cannot mentally get through another day of the b.s.........he finally gives up and lets it go. Then, he does what he should have done in the first place.....but he wouldn't follow our advice and he went with his emotions. Now, she starts seeing him with different eyes b/c he doesn't want her any longer. Talk about a couple whose timing is out of sync!

It all looks so clear in your Stiches as I read them. Yet mine confuses me. My DB Coach says do the nice things (i.e. should I pick them up from the airport etc - sounds like eating the entire cake shop not just a slice to me), yet on here I see a more distant approach. There's a fine line between lovingly detaching and being cold.

And this makes me want to pull my hair out. (Again, to my knowledge, the coaches do not separate the wayward wives from the others). And why do you see a thin line between lovingly detaching and being cold? Have you ever had any experience with discipling children? Maybe not. If you have, then you can understand (especially with teenagers) how you must be firm with boundaries, house rules, respect, and dealing with them as they rebel against everything you stand for. It calls for tough love, but the parent doesn't have to give them a cold shoulder and not talk to them. You have to communicate very plainly what will not be tolerated. And if they choose to do anyway, you enforce a consequence for their action/behavior. You do it b/c you love them more than life itself. But you have to be the one in charge. To me, that is similar to the H and his WW. It may hurt like heck to stand up to her and not give in to whatever.....but b/c you love her, you can do it as long as she is acting like a rebellious teenager. This, to me, is lovingly detaching. You have to detach from what your emotions may want.....in order to be the lighthouse that guides her back.

Also, I gather from DB Coach that its all about lovingly detaching, yet still doing the things they appreciate etc. You seem to differ a bit on this. Can you clarify please - as my DB coach keeps telling me not to try mind read and predict what she is thinking? At present my WW has is definitely very dark on me.

Have I explained where you understand why the coaches give you different advice from what I say? I respectfully disagree in their advice, if it's a wayward wife. I do not agree with grouping waywards together with some poor woman who left the M b/c the H was beating her and the kids. Makes no sense at all, to me. If he was an abuser (for example), then I would definitely agree that he needs to get therapy and fix himself, then he should try to build a friendship and do nice things for her. That just makes good sense. The heavy lifting is on his end. But if the W is wayward and showing all this hateful disrespect and rebelling against everything in the MR........then the heavy lifting is on her end. However, it won't come about until she comes out of that WW mindset.

[CT1118]

I am taking one thing from this. Giving less of a sh!t is working for you CT.

Sure, it works! B/c it helps the H to detach and let go. So what if she gets mad and throws a fit? Who cares? She uses her anger to control! Women who throw fits and bully, do it to control. If you guys have not learned that by now, please jot it down. When she sees she cannot bully her H to get her way, then she'll try a different way to get it. (But that's another lesson).

It surely does help me detach, and nothing could feel more unnatural, but I am doing it anyway. And my WW only briefly tried to use bully tactics. But WW's will try a different way as you state - they try no contact of their own, but what my WW mostly used was affection. I think the bullying would have made me wake up a whole lot faster when I was believing the lies before I got here.

All W's may not respond exactly alike, but if they are wayward, their goal is the same. Want to know what it is? To be free of everything she deems made her unhappy, and to go out there and find the life/man that fulfills her needs. Her selfishness will override any nice-guy attempts to convince her to give the M another chance. Selfish desires trump everyone and everything. So, however she may respond to him, he'd better be tough enough to handle her.

That's right, its about what the man needs to earn, not what he deserves. A WW will never give self-respect unless the man gives it to himself first. I am an LBS any longer, I am my own independent man. Would very much like to be W's H again, but both those people are on ice right now, time will tell if they thaw.

Sandi, I am handing you a trophy right now. Not b/c I agree or disagree, but for your efforts to facilitate understanding.

[CT1118]

Hmmmmm...NC of any kind today. This may be the longest I have not spoken w/ this woman in 6 years. I am surprised she has not attempted anything yet. Not mind reading but do have to wonder if she is thinking I am bluffing or if she gets it. Doesn't make a bit of difference though, I am feeling fine.