This thread is much much where im at, as i sit awake in the middle of the night trying to grasp whats going on.
Thank you all for your stories and advice.
I believe in marriage and fundamentally want to do everything to make it work, but yesterday wife said its over, nothing will change that, she wants full separation, and she does not believe in marriage. She wants what will make her happy (she feels she will be a better mother without me in the picture).
I need to completely detach, and truly forgive. I know the resentment and other negative feelings that have kept me up all night are bad.
Oh, and tomorrow is my daughter's birthday party so i have to see wife and her parents. It will be hard.
M:39 W:36 - D1:2 D2:6 11/19/16 BD1: ILYBNILWY, EA/PA Dec/Jan: MC, pursuing, not DBing 1/11/17 BD2: W wants 1 month break 2/1/17: Divorce Remedy. Start DBing 2/17/17 BD3: W - separation to start D process
Hey Forgump I think you're on to something. My WW has been able to rough through 7 months of financial hardship and taking a hit to her credit score and is still not wanting to talk about the R. It seems as if any emotional loss, ie. the kids staying at my house instead of hers and she starts gbecoming more vulnerable.
An MLCer who left a marriage will experience changes to the practical and emotional dimensions of her/his life. The practical dimension might include things like more money to spend, enjoying new home, and having less responsibility with kids -- to speak of positive changes only. The positive changes in the emotional dimension might include things like feeling more freedom and more excitement with new lovers.
I imagine that when some of those above things turn negative -- for example, instead of feeling more freedom, they feel lonely; or instead of feeling infatuated with a new lover, they become disappointed and disillusioned w/ the new lover -- that's when they might start to think about the LBS. "Hm, maybe I made a mistake...."
My question is this: it seems to me that when the EMOTIONAL things go bad for the MLCer, they might start to regret what they've done. But when the PRACTICAL things go bad for the MLCer, it probably won't make them regret -- instead they'll just resent the LBS for giving them a raw deal in life.
Do you think that's generally true? Will an MLCer really think about returning to a marriage because, gee, it sure was easier to pay the bills, keep the house clean, mow the lawn and fix our appliances when I was married?
I'd appreciate any thoughts, however speculative.
FG, this is a very interesting perspective that you bring up. I can see where you are going with it and it does make sense. I can try and think about it in my sitch, but I don't feel that I can generalize that same concepts to others. Also I don't see how they are mutually exclusive in that you can give more weight to one over the other, as both have an affect on the other and compound it.
When my H left for OW, he was essentially running from his life--the "emotional" side and the "practical" side (per your descriptions). Things were hard emotionally for him as he suffered from Nice Guy syndrome and felt unappreciated and empty, we had multiple family stressors/losses, and I was not able to meet him where he was at (thus adding to him feeling run down). In terms of the practical, well things were very hard with our children, parents, jobs, financial stresses, however he also feared having to face that all alone.
When he left, he had a very short lived period of relief from both. He does say now that he was plagued the entire time with guilt (for hurting everyone) and feeling like a failure for giving up and not working on the hardships. It was his entitlement (ie Nice Guy not meeting his own needs and blaming me) that justified his leaving. Then when he left and started dating her, my hurt/anger/lashing out started, which only reinforced why he left. So round and round it went.
He soon realized that the issues he had with OW were the same with me, which forced him to look at himself. He all along questioned their R, as he knew something was not right--he knew he was running to her for security and validation, and that she was not a person he would have ever been with had the circumstances been different. So he further started to miss me, beyond the guilt of hurting me. He also saw how much he hurt the children when he broke apart our family. He didn't have much support from family/friends either, because they all knew he was making a mistake.
The practical side was also very difficult. He was living at his parents, as an adult with a W and children, and had to commute further to work. He saw the kids at our house sometimes and brought them to his parents some of the time, which was very difficult. Then he had to balance seeing OW at her place (she left her H at the same time but got her own place). She became increasingly insecure and needy and that took a toll on him. She wanted to spend more time with him, wanted him to plan things, wanted to go on vacations, and even wanted to live together and get together with our kids (even though they all knew each other!). He didn't want to live with her or combine families, and he knew logically it would not work. So it was difficult situation logistically, which also made the emotional aspect more difficult.
So in my sitch it was both and one constantly affected the other, and he eventually went on a downhill spiral and hit rock bottom. In the meantime I started to give up on the idea of him and planned a life without him. I also stopped spewing and got better at DB.
I had brought up similar questions with my IC when he was gone and with our MC when he first came back. I wanted to make sense of it all and I am sure you all do too. The best I learned is that there are as many differences in our sitches as there are similarities. It is very difficult to predict the tipping point for leaving the M and for returning to the M. What I gather reading here is that a lot of WAWs in particular have been suffering for years and the H is oblivious to how serious things are. By the time H loses her, then he is motivated to make changes, however it is often too late and she is completely checked out.
In terms of waywards, well I think it depends on if the S was at risk of walking away and then found the A, or if the S found the A and then left to pursue OP. In the case of my H, he would not have left if there was no OW. She worked very hard to pursue, manipulate, and flatter him. He was extremely vulnerable to this (and most likely it could have been with someone else too) and so he ran. He ran and learned that everything was crumbling--emotionally and practically.
I am not sure that helps. I do think there are some differences between my H and the S's I read about here. In terms of MLC, well I don't know how much I believe that. One could argue that my H was in a MLC just as well as I could argue that he was not. I think we like to find commonalities and labels because it MAKES US FEEL comfortable and hopeful. It takes the pressure off of us and helps us understand the why. In reality, we may never completely understand why. There are still things about my H (and what he did) that I don't understand. Equally, there are things that he doesn't understand about what happened either. He never thought he was capable of any of this and he still is ashamed that it happened.
So what it boils down to for all of us is that we will never completely understand why they do what they do. We can't know if they are having a MLC because we are not them and we are not in their heads. It behooves us far more to focus on what WE CAN control, and that is ourselves. Also, as you become the stronger, more confident, and "better" version of you, then consequently you are more likely going to attract them back. All of this takes a long time.
I know this is hard. You will get there eventually. But you have to take that first step and just let go.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I was reading back on some of your previous posts and I have listened to everything you and all the other vets have said, but honestly I still have not really put all of the advice of DBing into practice.
Some things you said in your previous posts stuck in my mind, you said......
"I can't keep beating myself up over it, but I can now, start to focus more on my own happiness, what I want, and really learn to take care of myself"
"Take care of the person that matters most. YOU!"
"Be kind to yourself"
I know for me FEAR is such a huge part of my decisions. I am not implying that any of what you are dealing with is fear. I also wonder if I would ever be able to totally forgive my H for the A.
You have come such a long way and have gone through some much and have been fortunate enough to come out on the other side. I would never be able to give any kind of advice to you. But I do like what someone said earlier about you having a choice to make, either stay in the M and find happiness, or end the marriage and find happiness elsewhere. Neither is an easy choice and definitely not one to be taken lightly.
skyhigh, do you have a thread? It would be nice to read more threads on piecing, and I know we need the support too. There is a lot of assumptions that most DBers don't ever make it to piecing, but I also think that is when people stop posting. I know I don't visit here nearly as much as I did when H first left.
SBJ, thank you my friend. I am glad that my posts are helpful. Honestly, I got so much out of this site when my H first left. I would read here daily, and while I didn't post, it helped me not feel alone in what I was going through. So I post here in part to "pay it back" and also because it helps me to process my own sitch and feelings.
trumpet, wow, thank you for saying that I am inspiring. I certainly don't feel that way! In fact when I read the other posters' struggles, it tugs at my heart strings, and I can relate. I actually can see now how I messed up all the time. It took me a very long time to let go of H and start implementing the DB principles. And I don't think that it was my effort or work that brought him back. I actually think he would have come back anyhow--as we have talked about it all, I can understand that he had shame and regret for the A and for leaving from day one.
hawker, thank you. I follow your sitch too. I think you are very level headed and I admire you. I think you are going to be fine with or without her :-) You are much better at DB than I ever was.
jujuB, thank you for stopping by. I have been thinking about what you said. I agree that I will find happiness and I think we all will if we can choose to. It is a choice. Yes, belief over feelings--yes, agreed 100%! Feelings change all the time. Today I woke up happy, then something bad happened and I was frustrated and cried, and now I have processed it but feel better and a bit numb. And it's not even lunch time!
Here is the thing about beliefs tho--they don't cycle like feelings do, but they CAN change. You see when I met my H, I was much younger and inexperienced in life. When we married, I believed that any type of infidelity was a deal breaker. I believed that our M was a choice that we made every day and we even wrote that into our vows. I also believed that if we chose to no longer "choose" each other each day, then we would end it. I thought it was my deep love and attraction for him that kept me there each day.
Well that was many years ago. I like to think that I am not only older, but wiser as well. If I still held these beliefs, then my M would have been over years ago. Today, I believe in the institution of M--the financial commitment, the family commitment and that being together is best for our children, and that really there are no "deal breakers" per se, but that we both have to make a conscious commitment to keep working together. We now understand the value of being M over time and the benefits to each person in the family. It's all very unromantic, isn't it?
What has changed the most is what I perceive as happiness. Through this painful journey, the greatest silver lining for me has been that I know where happiness comes from. It is from me and it is inside of me, and not from anyone else. It always was, but I didn't know that then.
Okay, I gotta run, but I will be back later, as I owe you all a hello and thank you for reading :-)
Love, Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Yeah, Bluwave has arrived! I constantly read your threads as you did the DBing task and came out on top. I am in the infantile stages of piecing and find it harder than the LRT. My biggest challenge is resentment right now. My DB coach said I am stuck on "Someone needs to pay" and he's right. Reading about your struggles after piecing began has helped me immensely. I have found comfort in knowing that this is to be expected.
Has your H attended IC? What about reading books? If so, was he the type of guy to go to counseling before or read up on relationship repair? I am trying to find if I am trying to force my way of remorse on my WH or if this is appropriate to expect these things? So far my WH has only attempted to read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" once and that was before the second time he cheated with same OW. Obviously it didn't sink in at the time. In his defense he simply doesn't read, not for enjoyment and grudgingly for studying. His actions are kind and gentle but I still have this humongous wall of resentment in my way.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
Kevin: "I need to completely detach, and truly forgive. I know the resentment and other negative feelings that have kept me up all night are bad." Kevin, that is a lot of pressure! I think you are setting yourself up for failure. I'm not even sure how anyone could force themselves to do that! My H has been back for a long time--and done almost everything he can--and I am still not able to truly forgive him.
Also, I don't think detachment is something we can "do." I think it is the consequence of doing other things, such as taking care of yourself first, GAL, and doing 180s for yourself. As you begin to find yourself (reattach to a healthy R with the self) then you can begin to detach from an unhealthy R with a codependent M. So give yourself a break. Do the opposite of pressuring yourself to forgive someone that hurt you. Find yourself, mend, heal, love, and value yourself. If you see yourself as worthy of this love, then others will too.
Skm, I have a lot of fear also. Maybe it's just a normal part of being human. It's when fear stops us from moving forward that we need to check ourselves. The entire time H was gone, I was drowning in fear. I had to force myself to do everything--eat, sleep, go to work, think clearly, spend time with kids, etc--and I felt like a shell of a person. Looking back though, I can see that as afraid as I was, I still did it. I kept trying over again each day and that's all I could do.
I still have a lot of fears. The difference now is that I believe that everything will be okay. It may not be the way I want it to be, and things may fall off track, but I know that with or without a man in my life, I will be just fine. I can see now that I wasnt that strong before--I had a very codependent and unhealthy M, so when H left, I was broken. No longer the case because I found myself in this mess. My mother still has not and I can see so clearly now that I don't want to live like that--she needs a man to feel whole. I want my daughters to learn this much earlier in life--they don't need anyone but themselves. I hope now that I am leading by example.
I have noticed that you often wonder if you will be able to forgive be him. Or do you mean have a M with him? In your thread you even pondered that if he came back, could you forgive him and see past what he has done. I used to think the same thoughts. But you know what? It doesn't serve you at all. You have to learn to thought stop and let that go. Why? Because you will never find an answer, you cannot know what is not there. Until he actually comes around and shows you a person worthy of your forgiveness, then how can you answer it? And even in the case of my H--who has come around and done all that he can--I still struggle with it. I am reading a great book on forgiveness and what I am taking away is that you can accept your reality without forgiveness. I think there is far too much pressure (especially in religions) to forgive. Also, it means something different to us all. I personally want to forgive my H--not for him, but for me--however it is taking me a very long time. If he had not come back and shown remorse and asked for forgiveness, then I would it even focus my energy on it. That's me tho.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Sara, I don't know how you do it sometimes. My H came back remorseful, ashamed, and asking for forgiveness. He saw an IC the entire time he was gone and after, but honestly I think that guy made it worse. That's my opinion tho. He read books. We also went to MC for a year when he came back. I am the one that wanted to stop, the constant triggers were just too painful, I needed a break. The difference with my H is that he felt guilty and ashamed all along. He must have felt entitled to even have an A, but he never made excuses, and from day one he said that he knew it was wrong, it was a mistake, but that he couldn't help how he felt. I could see his conflict all along.
I don't know what I would have done otherwise. I still struggle with forgiveness. I still have resentment. I don't know how you couldn't also! I guess your biggest test is time and patience. Things will keep changing and you can stay the course without acting on your emotions. As time goes on, yes, I think you will need to see his remorse. How can you truly fall in love again without him being sorry for hurting you?
Maybe don't get ahead of yourself. This is a marathon, isn't it? You have chosen to honor your vows, M, and family. You are working on your positive changes and you will have those forever. He will find his way too. It sounds like he is going to need a longer, slower process. I hope he can get there.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I am thinking of starting my own thread, I just need to find the time to do it. Life has been very crazy busy lately and with my husband who entered his "needy" phase, I feel I have 4 kids instead of 3 at home.
Like you I am a firm believer that detachment is essential and clinging or begging are recipes for disaster.
Me 52+ WH 57+ Married 20 + Piecing since 2016 (ready to give up...)
skyhigh, that would be nice if you started a thread. I think it's can be therapeutic to journal thoughts/feelings. I also think it helps those newly LBS (or the ones feeling stuck) to see that life won't necessarily be better if the S comes back. It also shows the importance of DB. I didn't DB well enough and it has made piecing harder. It's hard to DB and piece at the same time. I am realizing more that I have developed some unhealthy coping mechs. It's also hard to move forward and forgive H when I've got all this on my plate. Not going to beat myself up for it tho--such is life.
You mentioned he is "needy" and I think it was you that told Sara, it takes time for them to become remorseful. I honestly wonder if waywards follow some sort of trajectory or if they are all different. My H didn't go through "phases" and has been fairly consistent for the last 2 years. He sometimes says that he feels like he is waiting for me and trying to be patient. He has also said that he feels beneath me and at times not good enough. Admittedly, I keep him at arms length. Not sure how long that will last, but that is what feels safe for me right now. I can't hand someone my heart when I know they can break it.
I met this very lovely elderly woman last week and we talked about M. She opened up that she has been with her H for 40 years and they were very happy. Her first M lasted 20 years, but that was because they had children and a home so she tried to make it work. There was infidelity and I don't think she ever fully moved passed it. She said her second M is so much better, and they were both M and had kids that were adults (then D) before they met. I couldn't help but wonder if that will be me one day. Maybe in 10 plus years I will move out of this M?
I also met another man who opened up about his M and wife. Also a second M and things were better. I got the sense there was infidelities in his first M too. He asked me about my M and I shared some things. He told me how he hopes my H appreciates me, etc. He was so kind and flattering. It made me feel resentment for my sitch and my H. Ugh.
So I think I have shared before that I work in critical care--I meet a lot of older patients, and they are often very ill and vulnerable. Or, I get to know a partner who is watching a loved one die. I think what I love about my job is getting to know people for who they are. I can find wisdom in anyone--even from the severely mentally ill and drug addicted. There is something to learn from everyone. It's humbling actually; I might look like I have it all on the surface, but I know I am no better than anyone.
So I talk a lot to my patients about M. I have met so many people that have been married for 40, 50, and even 60 years. It's pretty cool to hear how they make it work. It sorta keeps me going. Sadly tho, I find in my research, that those long Ms don't have the heavy baggage that mine does. Of course they all tell me it's never perfect, however their idea of "not perfect" is far from the disasters that I have faced in my M! Sigh.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
