A familiar story with questions..

[Gordie]

Are you trying to save your marriage? If she is in some sort of affair, is it over for you?

[RR17]

Good question. As discussed elsewhere the at stages for the LBH and right now I guess it depends.
If I gave a definitive answer, who knows if I would feel the same tomorrow.

Last night she seemed quite sad. I think the weight of dropping the D has started to set in. We sat in bed and I tried to respond to the TV so that I didn't seem to be sulking. She was quiet.

I usually make and bring coffee. Today I made it but she can get used to getting it herself.

The plot thickens, as they say. Right now I am committed to 180 and detachment.

[KGuy]

If you go all the way through all the LBS threads, there are a list of rules. Here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551824#Post2551824
Check out #10. Its done now, but in the past you should have insisted on transparency and then you would know whether she is in an A or not. If she brings up the R conversation again (only if SHE does), then I'd casually mention how this seems eerily similar to when she had an A and ask if she is having one.


Prior to reading threads about Affairs, I was inclined to think the same thing as you. I'm not so sure now. Obviously you call though. Anyway, the rules arer a little different with an A, so I'd keep trying to see if she is in one. My sitch is very complicated, but if she is only a WAW its harder to figure out how to act IMO.

[RR17]

I hear ya KGuy. Being that is my 2nd go round I am a different person now. The first time I was so glad to feel things being put back together that I took short cuts, made concessions. Well, there is a reason for these rules. I get it.

I have not seen it yet, but what are the rules on social media? Block her? Back off and post as if GAL?

[Tobias]

I think the key is looking at the "observe what is happening when you make changes"

I don't know if sex was a mistake and different people will have different thoughts.

There is the option she wants to eat her cake and have it too by living alone and still have you around.

Some on here will say: file the D and that might wake her up that you aren't going to be a plan B

But yes if it happened before and a few times it may have happened again.

[RR17]

Tobias, you are correct. I believe the key is to know yourself. If sex will make you believe things have turned, you may be fooling yourself. I was a pathetic hurt LBH the first time around. I compared my reaction to PTSD. I had triggers and panic attacks. Sex was a lifesaver, or so I thought. What do they call it Frantic Mating? I thought it was a sign that she still had feelings and it would all work out. What I now know, it that it made her believe that she could keep me and continue the EA.

Well, not this time. I am in control of me. Because of this group, I have learned that my situation is not so unique. My gosh, you would believe that it is a major epidemic, WAWs. People like Sandi and Cadet are a godsend because trying to figure it out on your own is near impossible.

I realize I may be over intellectualizing, but right now that's where I am.
In order to not accept less, you have to make absolutes while the head is clear. Decide what is allowed and what is not. These are your rules and stick to them.

[AnotherStander]

Hello and welcome!

During all this counseling, she finally stopped and things got better. Several apologies etc. Several of the problems that were discovered were never really worked out. Communication on her part. Her personal baggage etc. I had my share too.

What personal baggage are you referring to? What about communication, what are the problems there? These sound like some very serious issues that you just kind of breezed past. Usually when someone engages in an EA they are doing it because something is missing in the M. What do you think she was getting out of an EA that she was missing in the M? How can you do a 180 on that?

Well, I return Sunday evening and she hits me with it. Familiar reasons and behavior and I immediately suspect cheating again. No real reasons and lack of any logic. I confronted her in the most productive way I could and she denied and cried and said I would always suspect that. I have done some prying around and have yet to find real evidence. (they get better at it) Still, several things seem suspicious and I have to trust my heart.

Well you have to ask yourself if knowing versus not knowing matters to you. Early in my sitch I had suspicions, but I didn't know one way or the other (in fact 5 years later I still don't know). Some of the people here told me the same thing- would you change your DBing if you knew she was in an A and I decided that no, I wouldn't. So I let go of my need to know because it really didn't matter, she was two feet out the door no matter what. So ask yourself, and if you need to know then get serious about it and hire a PI. If you're going to DB regardless then let go of it.

Before the first time, I trusted this woman like I have never trusted before. I would have never thought she was capable of cheating

Before BD I trusted my W unconditionally. BD blew my mind, I never saw it coming. My point is your sitch is a breach of trust and faith regardless of whether she's having an A or not. She committed to you for life, now she is rescinding her commitment without warning. Really tough to rebuild trust after that. Most people in piecing never do fully trust their spouse again, they keep the walls up a little (or a lot).

Well, here's the catch. After less than a week of 180 she has moved closer.

Too soon to see any changes. WASs run hot and cold, it's important not to read too much into their actions when they're running hot. This is a long, long journey you're on.

I am limiting my words. (A challenge as I do most of the talking).

One of my favorite sayings people use around here is "drink a tall cool glass of STFU", LOL! Learn to be quiet and listen. If she doesn't talk much then just be quiet.

We had sex a few times and I now realize it was a mistake.

This subject comes up here, and I think it's talked about in DR as well. As a rule there's nothing wrong with continuing to have sex as long as you don't attach any expectations to it.

I said she should file ASAP and she said she would.

Your goal isn't to pressure her and force her to do things, it's to REMOVE all pressure. Back off and give her time and space.

My question that I haven't found from reading these many Newcomer threads is this. If I still suspect there is some type of A going on, should I proceed as if there is or just a WAW until my suspicions are confirmed?

Hopefully I answered that above, but the bottom line is whether it matters to you. If you found out there isn't an A, what would your approach be? If there is an A, would it be different?

[Accuray]

Hi RR17,

Your situation bears many similarities to mine. My exW had a string of EA's and I eventually caught her in the last one. After that I got the ILYBINILWY, BD, set on divorce, etc. etc. I was able to DB and we reconciled and had another three years together at which point, like you, I suspected something was up, caught her at it again with a new coworker and got divorced.

You and others have come here lately referring to "The 180" and talking about it as if it means walking away from their spouse and giving them space. From my read of MWD's books, "180" refers to evaluating your spouse's complaints about you, deciding which you want to remedy and then addressing them -- i.e. if you used to be sloppy be neat. Not super important but I'm not sure where this new interpretation is coming from because people now seem to think it means "don't pursue".

Regarding your situations, no radar is as fine-tuned as that of a cheated-on spouse, so I would say if your radar is telling you something is up, it probably is.

Does it matter though in the context that she wants to separate and/or wants out? If another person is involved or not, the facts of your relationship are the same.

I think the prescription is the same no matter what: don't pursue her, address your own issues (180), get a life, and act as if you're fine.

In the case of my exW, her needs were not being met in our marriage -- it was a classic "Five Love Languages" challenge where we were sending and receiving on different channels and weren't aware of it. Unfortunately, she chose not to voice any complaints or articulate any desires, perhaps in the interest of avoiding conflict. As a result, her resentments built to the point that she sought an EA and felt justified in doing so. I think at that point she was pretty checked out.

When we then reconciled, I think it was the path of least resistance, or something she felt she was doing for the benefit of the kids and the family and her EA had ended. I don't believe she was committed to the M at that point, so really it was just a stay of execution versus a real reconciliation.

I consider that to be a blessing for me, because I got three good years to be the best H I could be, to "bring it", and to leave the marriage with no regrets about my behavior or my contribution to it, I was able to leave with a great degree of peace. Hopefully you've had the same experience since your W's last EA.

If she's walked several times before and wants to walk again, chances are these are her issues that she doesn't want to address that you may or may not be exacerbating, and she doesn't believe in her heart that she can navigate back to "happy" with you.

As you probably know, the only way she's going to overcome that deeply held belief is for you to open the cage door and completely cut her free. If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

Acc

[RR17]

Okay, my understanding of the 180 is that it is a measure to startle the WAS out of their A Fog. Get their attention if you wish. Here are the rules as I discovered. It is not the only thing that you need to do but it will be noticed and hopfully break the trance. If you have not experienced this Fog Trance I doubt you would understand. Until this fog has lifted you are wasting your time trying to meet her needs.

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.

[Cadet]

Okay, my understanding of the 180 is that it is a measure to startle the WAS out of their A Fog.

It MAY do that but I would suggest it is more to protect YOU.
The rest is all correct.