When should a couple get divorced?

[TxHubby]

This is pretty open ended and we could probably come up with a million reasons. I'm very pro-marriage. I think a big reason the western nations became as big and successful as they are is because the foundation of western society was monogamous marriage/commitment by two people to each other no matter what. They worked, bought houses, raised kids. That model was the bedrock of society and a key contributor to how strong of a people western nations became. I also think that abandoning that traditional definition of marriage is now contributing to the decay of western society. All bets are off these days. Traditional marriage for life to the same person is almost unheard of. So much so that when someone hits a 30, 40 or 50th anniversary there is a HUGE deal made of it. Why? Because so few make it to those anniversaries anymore.

When should a marriage breakup? When 1 of the parties will no longer commit to it. You don't always have to be in love. It's not going to be a fairy tale every day. Life will get in the way. You'll get into the parent business. There will be stressful jobs, busy schedules, etc. Jobs become an escape from the "oppression" of home life. There you get to hang out with other adults and have adult conversations. Sometimes those lead people astray.

I used to say if there's adultery then you should end it. I said that the betrayed spouse could never get over such an extreme act of cruelty by the wayward spouse. When I experienced it I learned firsthand that it really is the worse pain a human being can feel. What made it worse is that my wife is religious. She believes in God, that 10 commandments, and all that jazz. That's what really blew my mind. How can someone who thinks adulterers are going to hell commit adultery? Oh well, what's done is done.

Anyway, I'm a living hypocrite. I was very cut and dry about cheating and yet I'm married to a cheater and I haven't divorced her. This whole thing has changed my worldview about a lot of things. Sadly, it has caused me to lower the bar for humanity.

I think the motto of all western nations in 2017 should be "If you can't live up to a standard, then lower the standard" because honestly, that's what we do.

[Maybell]

I don't think there are only good guys on this forum. I've talked to tons of bad guys here. We just aren't drawn to their stories and they tend not to stick around.

I also don't think I was perfect in my marriage. I had a lot of growing up to do. So did he. I married him for a reason -- but as our family grew, he chose not to. He IS irresponsible. He IS a cheater. He DOES abuse alcohol (and probably other things by now too). He isn't a great father. He does come from a family in which his father bullies his mother, is obviously dysfunctional and alcoholic, and other things too. My former FIL is also loving and generous. He's not a bad guy, but he's a terrible husband and my former MIL told me more than once she wishes she'd married someone else. I could have seen all that when I met Mr. Fantastic when I was 23, but I chose to spackle over those concerns. They played out anyway, and worse than what his father does. My ex is a crappy father. He sends our kids to compete in karate tournaments with no food or water. He told my 14 yo daughter that she'd really enjoy watching Game of Thrones; he flips her off when she's being playful. Other stuff too, but basically, he's an adolescent.

My new Guy isn't perfect, but those aren't his flaws. I fought for my marriage. I do not feel ashamed that when I realized it was harmful to me and my children, I accepted that my husband didn't want to be married to me. I don't feel ashamed that I'm finding happiness and a better example for my kids somewhere else. I do still mourn my marriage and what ought to have been. But I'm not going to stand for a dead thing. What happened, happened. Against my will and my beliefs, but I've got (God willing) 50 more years of life left in me. I can't look back on any of the fifteen years I was married and feel I know the truth about what was happening during that time. I don't think it's God's will that I spend my entire life that way.

If I'm being honest, Zues, I could not date you or be married to you. You are way too intense for me. I'd feel like I was constantly walking on eggshells around you. But I think to the extent there are "good guys" and "bad guys," you're one of the good guys because of the effort you put into your marriage and especially your kids. Your ex's labels about you don't mean much, because her actions of cheating, etc., speak for her character.

Two days ago when I was clearing out my home computer, I found a letter from Mr. Fantastic's OW to him at the time that I requested he go no contact with her. In it she says that she never understood why he was cheating on me, that she didn't think it would take much to make our marriage perfect, that I clearly loved him and treated him very well, and he claimed to love me too. In the letter asking for our separation he said the same thing. But he couldn't bring himself to make the effort. At the end of the day he preferred to go out looking for greener grass.

D@mn straight I'm grateful to be with someone who thinks I'm worth the effort.

BTW, if my child committed armed robbery, I'd still love him/her, but I wouldn't hesitate to let her know I thought she belonged in jail, and I certainly wouldn't trust her to housesit for me. The decision about whether or not to have another child would be separate from that, as the decision to go out and date again was separate from the fact that Mr. Fantastic... isn't. FOR MYSELF, I wanted someone to go out with to the movies, or to local festivals, or whatever. It happens that the person I most enjoyed spending time with also brings a lot of other great qualities to the table that help me feel more like myself. It's not like I set out to find a new spouse. But if that's what it turns into, then I'm grateful for the crooked, unwanted road that brought me to someone who thinks I'm worth committing to.

[JujuB]

Hi zues,

I wish I came upon arguments such as yours in forums that are frequented by bored house wifes upset that their husband arent giving them enough attention, or by husbands frutrated because they are in sexless marriages and want to take off with the flirtacious younger secretary they work with. (Easy solutions to both scenarios btw...invest on your marriage)

But most of us on here, arent here because we let go of a marriage due to our husbands forgetting to put the toilet seat down or because our wives nagged us to take the garbage out too many times.

You asked me a while ago when i was on newcomers what i felt like was a good reason to end a marriage, and i replied child endangerment and if your life is in jeopordy. I stand by it.

I recently met and listened to a talk by a woman i met who found out she was hiv+ when going through the standard testing while pregnant. Turns out her husband was leading a double life, sleeping with men and women. Now shes an advocate and trying to get the point across that hiv/aids also affects educated, middle class white women.

Marriage is sacred and When you marry smneone, you are trusting them with your life and well being. You choose to bring children into the world based on that trust. When some one is mot trust worthy, is not committed, and incapable of keeping their own partner and children safe, it is ok to let go. Most people that do this are repeat offenders. We see that time and time again.

My husband was leadimg a double life. God for bid he was an IV drug user (which is the next step after pain killer) he could have exposed me and my son to some nasty diseases. And he would have been in some weird denial about it as well. There are posters on here who have contracted diseases that will increase their risk for cancer. The damage that many of the walk away spouses on here inflict or have the potential to inflict is not worth the risk. They are diseased, dangerous peopke and will brimg down the peopke who love them if allowed.

[Tobias]

"D@mn straight I'm grateful to be with someone who thinks I'm worth the effort. "

Being in a sort of similar sitch. My W's OM has even joked how he expected her to be pregnant shortly after I discovered the PA. He has said early on that she should tell me about him that she needs to be honest and he would understand if she goes back to me. Right now it seems he is telling her that she needs to focus on herself. It makes it hard for me to hate the guy even though I really wish he would have never allowed it to get this far. But that is not relevant to me right now. I can forgive her for those decisions since I contributed to them. But she knows I know so everything we do HE is right there even though he is not. Instead of addressing a challenge like fighting or sex or communication that is no longer about fixing it but someone else came along. I think that is why the advice on this board is to not bring it up too much, to detach and act like a friend because all these thoughts make him/her recognize that all is not well.

I think the issue there isn't so much intent. If I look into my W I can see intent is there. She wants to feel in love with me (and I think in many ways she is in love) but she recognizes that everything got so complicated. We are now 10 years into knowing each other realizing we never set things up right. There is a lot of hard work. Perhaps it IS easier to just call it quits. You know?

And this is where I think a lot of us are. It's not the devaluing of marriage. It's that we are compelled to marry early. If you do the math in a lot of sitch people got married when they were early 20s. That is WAY too young. You still go through an entire developmental cycle in your mid to late 20s and most likely early thirties. But because we stigmatize sex prior to marriage we rush into it. And then because none of us have the skills needed to be successful we run into problems.

It happened to me! I KNEW getting involved with a 20 year old was dumb. I never expected it to last. I was in pain from a previous break up and here she came along. She was more mature for her age than I expected. I was 30 but in many ways I was not as mature that age suggests because I focused too much on getting an education and not believing that any woman could actually want me. She gave me attention. I was a father figure to her. I thought we planned together and I never trusted her when she said she wasn't happy, or that she wanted a divorce (well you are still here aren't you? you must just like drama! etc).

My W told the MC early on that if she met me today we could totally start as a couple and we would have a lot of things set right. But of course resentment, guilt, pain, heart break, rejection, etc all float around.

I am fighting for my marriage because I feel we are both good people and we can deliver more than what we need from each other. We just need help with the HOW to do it. I would leave this marriage instantly if she acted matter of factly about me. If she acted like I deserved to be cheated on (and she kind of alluded to that early on after I discovered the PA). I am also fighting for this marriage because we HAVE a long history together. We like similar things. I am sure I can easily find someone with similar interests and perhaps someone who doesn't need a manual in how to figure out what I need. But I CHOSE her. I am not letting go of that commitment until I no longer feel it is worth it. I don't care about adding to the divorce rate. Society functions with or without divorce. There are immediate family and friends who might have a (short term) negative emotional impact but they will survive. Divorce is not the enemy: bad marriage skills are the enemy.

There is not a single sitch in here where I don't see those bad marriage skills playing a role. Both partners probably had some of those bad skills they need to work on. What IS different is the reaction from our H/W. Some clearly have intimacy present whereas others are cruel, distant, cold etc.

Going back to the question: any reason is good enough to divorce BUT personally I don't want to avoid divorce if because of being married to each other we cannot fully reach our life goals and potential. I don't need my W but I want her. I know that no matter how bad our intangibles are (housing, food, employment, etc) that being with her is worth it.

[Zues126]

It's funny how different people can be from each other. I find the differences in how people view marital commitments very important, yet I post it in the middle of an online community with people going through divorce and it is nearly crickets or 'what's the point of this?' I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with that, again, I really just find it curious. Either way it has been very helpful to me. I know when I started on these forums I just assumed that since everyone was here to save their marriages that everyone probably shared similar views and beliefs to me. I've learned nothing could be further than the truth.

Juju, I agree with everything you typed. When a person betrays their marriage and puts their family at physical risk then unfortunately it is necessary to part ways. I would imagine that means that anything short of that you grit your teeth and stick it out. Correct me if I'm wrong. You know, many people have tried to reduce the 'divorce stigma' or the shame that goes with divorce because we don't want people to feel trapped in a bad marriage. But I wonder if as divorce is more and more accepted if that has lead to more of these betrayals such as infidelity because there is less social consequence? I'm not sure, again, just me kicking around ideas.

I also believe that our society is in general too entitled to really make marriage work these days. I think that the bar has been set unrealistically high. I find the idea of compatibility to be a myth that contributes to dissatisfaction and divorce. For example, I am a hard working man that takes care of my family, doesn't cheat, beat, drink, and was ready to remain committed to my XW should she be hospitalized for years. There was a time when this would've been considered a catch. Now all of those other qualities are taken for granted or dismissed as unimportant, because we expect all of that AND 'compatibility'. I've joked in the past that I am not compatible with anyone that believes in compatibility. I haven't seen any evidence this leads to an increase in lasting happy marriages or fulfillment, quite the contrary.

If anyone still is nodding along with me I can lose the last of those folks by saying I think that things may have worked better with arranged marriages. Oh, I know, many people were in marriages that by today's standards were horrible, and they were trapped because of the social stigma. But to me this seems more natural, to take what we are given and find ways to celebrate the good in it. There were many negatives about this but it seems superior to the destruction we bring on ourselves when we put ourselves and personal happiness as the goal for our lives and are willing to destroy our families and communities to pursue it. If what I see in the world is the best we can do, it's been proven to me that taking it on ourselves to navigate this piece of our life is beyond us, particularly when built on compatibility and romantic ideals.

Despite the monumental differences I have with most of you on these boards, I do appreciate you sharing with me and having me as part of the community these last few years. Again, I have learned a lot about how other people look at the world, and this has helped understand reality. This will help me avoid projecting my views onto the general population which will eliminate frustration and disappointment.

[Ginger1]

I think it's all about personal values. You say being there, working hard and staying committed used to be "enough" to make a marriage last. Some indivduals personally hold values such as somone working hard to emotionally support, connect and understand above being having a faithful provider. I am not saying one is more "right" than another, but it is reality.

I am sort of in your boat. I was talking to my IC and she said my ex really did do me a favor by leaving. He was awful to me. She asked if she thinks I would have left if we were still married. I told her I would have wanted to, but I wouldn't have unless our M was harmful to our daughter simply because of the value and commitment I put into marriage.

I worked with many from the Indian culture, mostly HIndu. They have arranged marriages. Well, more modernized arranged marriages where you find someone suitable enough, get along well enough, then you learn to love. It actually does work quite well in majority of the cases. There was a respiratory therapist who had a huge crush on me who was Indian. Quite honestly, no one has ever treated me better. He began working with me when I was pregnant right before my H left. When I realized he has feelings, I was in no place to date, and honestly, I wasn't attracted to him. I haven't seen him since he got engaged 5 years ago to a lovely Indian woman. it was somewhat of an arrangement. They are happy, they have a baby, they practice their cultural tradtitions, but I get the feeling he still holds a torch for me. Point of my story is, you would do really well in the Indian culture. It would have never worked between us, because their culture is very dear to them and I do not share in that, but he would have made a really great husband.

[Maybell]

I never intended to get divorced and I think divorce can be avoided when you are working with two committed people, but if one person is committed and the other isn't, then it's torture for the committed person. If the uncommitted person is going to walk anyway, why not give the committed person the opportunity to be happy?

Divorce being illegal doesn't make marriages happy. It can make them dangerous. Alabama has a kind of "supermarriage" and they have one of the highest divorce rates. It's a form of marriage that was intended for people who don't believe in divorce, like you. But they don't have any better of a success rate than any other kind of marriage, because people are in them. Maybe arranged marriages do all right, but only because they're generally entered into by people who already respect tradition.

You seem to think there's a communal solution to divorce. The truth is, individuals have been acting up in their marriages since there was such a thing as marriage. The reason women fought for it to be easier to get one was to protect the women whose husbands walked out on them or beat them. The Bible itself says that infidelity is a just cause for divorce -- there aren't many people on this board who haven't enjoyed that pleasure.

Historically, you find a lot of instances where unfaithful husbands transmitted STDs to their wives (in the times before there were effective treatments for such things) who then transmitted it to their children. Congenital syphilis is a thing because the difficulty of obtaining divorce prevented women (primarily) from leaving their unfaithful husbands without, literally, an act of Parliament.

At the end of the day, I don't think I accept your premise that people are less committed than they used to be. I think they are exactly as committed as they used to be. Also abusive and unfaithful. Just now they have more options for what to be about the consequences of those uncommitted people who are abusing committed people.

I hate to make this conversation personal, Zues, but I know you're really angry with your ex and I wonder if you aren't universalizing your experience. That because YOU didn't want to be divorced, and you feel like it was avoidable if something could have kept your ex-wife chained to you, that NOBODY should get divorced.

Most of us on these boards have had the infidelity experience. If the Bible says that's a good reason to get divorced -- in fact, it's the Bible's ONLY exception to "till death do us part" -- then why should we second guess that?

Nobody here wanted to be divorced. Most of us feel like we led reasonably happy lives with our spouses, and that they gave us reason to think they felt the same. None of us could do anything about the divorces that we were party to, so why should we think that any act we might endorse would change human nature? Walkaways are going to walk one way or another. It's possible to leave even without a divorce (I think there are some people around who suffered that as well). We can all say people should be raised to be committed, and I assure you, my former in-laws assumed they did raise their son to be committed... So then what????

[Rose888]

It's funny how different people can be from each other. I find the differences in how people view marital commitments very important, yet I post it in the middle of an online community with people going through divorce and it is nearly crickets or 'what's the point of this?' I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with that, again, I really just find it curious. Either way it has been very helpful to me. I know when I started on these forums I just assumed that since everyone was here to save their marriages that everyone probably shared similar views and beliefs to me. I've learned nothing could be further than the truth.

The board has had these discussions before. The crickets might be because many of us already know there is a divide here that discussion never seems to cross.

Juju, I agree with everything you typed. When a person betrays their marriage and puts their family at physical risk then unfortunately it is necessary to part ways. I would imagine that means that anything short of that you grit your teeth and stick it out. Correct me if I'm wrong. You know, many people have tried to reduce the 'divorce stigma' or the shame that goes with divorce because we don't want people to feel trapped in a bad marriage. But I wonder if as divorce is more and more accepted if that has lead to more of these betrayals such as infidelity because there is less social consequence? I'm not sure, again, just me kicking around ideas.

I also believe that our society is in general too entitled to really make marriage work these days. I think that the bar has been set unrealistically high. I find the idea of compatibility to be a myth that contributes to dissatisfaction and divorce. For example, I am a hard working man that takes care of my family, doesn't cheat, beat, drink, and was ready to remain committed to my XW should she be hospitalized for years. There was a time when this would've been considered a catch. Now all of those other qualities are taken for granted or dismissed as unimportant, because we expect all of that AND 'compatibility'. I've joked in the past that I am not compatible with anyone that believes in compatibility. I haven't seen any evidence this leads to an increase in lasting happy marriages or fulfillment, quite the contrary.

These paragraphs seem to position marriage as exclusively for the physical protection of the individuals. You don't seem to acknowledge (at least in this post) that individuals have emotional needs and emotional health that are as important as physical needs and physical health. I don't think it's a bad thing that society has moved beyond thinking that providing physically and not physically harming is enough.

If anyone still is nodding along with me I can lose the last of those folks by saying I think that things may have worked better with arranged marriages. Oh, I know, many people were in marriages that by today's standards were horrible, and they were trapped because of the social stigma. But to me this seems more natural, to take what we are given and find ways to celebrate the good in it. There were many negatives about this but it seems superior to the destruction we bring on ourselves when we put ourselves and personal happiness as the goal for our lives and are willing to destroy our families and communities to pursue it. If what I see in the world is the best we can do, it's been proven to me that taking it on ourselves to navigate this piece of our life is beyond us, particularly when built on compatibility and romantic ideals.

In many societies with arranged marriages, women move into their husband's parents houses and suffer horrific abuse. They still burn widows in some villages in India. It's hard to find a way to "celebrate the good" in that.

I believe it is possible to be strongly pro-marriage while also recognizing that people have emotional needs that are important, even vital.

[Treasur]

I think it is a very personal choice, and for many of us here, highlights that we and our spouses perhaps see love, marriage and divorce differently now even if we thought it was a shared view before. I can see times when divorce is necessary or the lesser of two evils.

For me, getting married was a covenant more than a contract. My unspoken vows were threefold; to choose to love my H when he was not so loveable, to try to work together to address our problems as life evolved, and if we couldn't fix them together to always be kind to each other. I have done my best with my H to do this. My MLC H either could not or would not, for whatever unknown reason/s. But it doesn't change my three vows and it helps to know that I am being divorced but I tried my best to keep faith with my H and my M.