I would love to hear what get's their attention, what has been successful at shaking them out of the fog. Do I pack my stuff?
When you are fully detached and don't care what gets their attention.
Cadet's answer was brief, but there's a deep truth in it. You cannot shake them out of the fog -directly-. Only they can do that. Anything you do to force them, like packing a bag, or begging them to stay or whatever, it's all the same to them- tricks to get them back. And they will see right through it.
DBing is -indirectly- influencing them. WAS's are stubborn, they are convinced what they are doing is "right" even though they usually feel terrible about it. The more you TELL them they are wrong, the more convinced they are that they are right. Begging/ pleading/ reasoning/ explaining/ apologizing all just sounds like pandering to them, it all sounds like efforts by you to get what YOU want (to get back together) which to them looks like "more of the same behavior" (IE- control, manipulation, selfishness).
So the idea is to show them the opposite of what they expect (180's). They EXPECT you to pout, whine, beg, plead, etc. So if you pull back and become more independent and self-sufficient then THAT is what gets their attention. If you've had previous relationships where you were the one that broke up, then think back to the aftermath. I had a GF that just said "fine" and walked away. And I had a GF do the whole begging/ pleading thing. The former seemed strong and made me wonder if I gave up someone I shouldn't have. The latter just seemed weak and pathetic and while I felt sorry for her, it just reinforced my belief that she really wasn't for me. I just mention that because most people have been through the same, and it kind of helps you understand how the WAS thinks.
So yes, you increase your chances of a recon by getting to the point where you don't care what gets their attention, you live for you and not for them. Paradoxically that also puts you in a position where if they do decide to recon, you may not want to because you no longer need them. But that's OK. "Wanting" your spouse is fine, "needing" them is unhealthy.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
Then what are Sandi2's 37 Rules?
They are your roadmap to how to behave with a WAS, particularly if you're still in the same house. Call them rules or guidelines or commandments or whatever, it doesn't really matter. 25's point is they are not a replacement for reading DR and other self-help books, for going to IC, for going to MC (if and when the marriage gets to that point), for seeking medical attention for extreme depression or anxiety, for going to Retrouvaille, etc. etc. Some people think all they have to do is follow Sandi's rules and that will heal their marriage. Sandi's rules are one tool in your toolbox. You need all the tools to fix yourself and maybe the M, no one tool will get you there.
Also it's not a static situation. It's dynamic. As your WAS and your situation changes, you have to tweak your DB'ing (including Sandi's rules) to compensate. You have to monitor, and keep doing what works and stop doing what doesn't work. In order to know what works and doesn't work, you have to change things up now and then. That's the nature of DB'ing.
I have tried different things, being nice, inviting to breakfast etc.....I felt like I got more out of my W in terms of interaction from her but it did not change our relationship any as far as her wanting to reconcile. It seems she has really shut down since I did not invite her to my birthday party last week. I guess in some weird way that is a good thing because maybe for the first time I stood up for myself.
I understand and agree with several points. Unless I'm missing something some of the accepted info on this board contradicts its self as well as DR book.
This is my 2nd go round and I know what doesn't work. I did it. It is the Pursuer/Distancer dynamic and I have read about it a length.
I have reread this thread and nowhere have I asked for or insinuated that there is a silver bullet or single trick. I get that.
When one thread says move away from the S and the next says become a good friend to the S, it get's confusing.
When DR says fix the problems in you and the problems involve intimacy with your S. (a common problem with LBH) It gets confusing.
When both book and this board says to "try and monitor", yet Sandi says the b!&* is a lier and is taking temp. (which I believe is very plausible). It gets confusing. Is it working or is she testing to see if you will still be plan B?
If you are going to do anything, either passively or actively, you are doing it to affect change. Does this mean you expect to fix your S or Fix the problem? No, unless we could change other people it would be impossible and we all know we can't do that.
One benefit that I have is that I have been here in this SITCH before. My W has seen the pitiful blubbering spineless victim beg and plead. That has never been the case this time. Anything different is surely seen as a 180. I have seen the benefit of not pushing her away with my pursuit. She seems to enjoy my company, which I intentionally limit.
Odd thing is, she, for the most part, is acting as if everything is fairly normal. She also went to gather info on D from an attorney yesterday.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I have tried different things, being nice, inviting to breakfast etc.....I felt like I got more out of my W in terms of interaction from her but it did not change our relationship any as far as her wanting to reconcile. It seems she has really shut down since I did not invite her to my birthday party last week. I guess in some weird way that is a good thing because maybe for the first time I stood up for myself.
Good for you Joseph9. Remember that mad is not always a bad thing.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
not to nitpick but I think it's very important to realize there are NO "RULES",
Then what are Sandi2's 37 Rules?
They are guidelines based on MWD's books, which Sandi assembled one afternoon.
And In those, Sandi mentions that they are guidelines, and that NOT all are applicable, t and that you must monitor the results of your behaviors and 180s,
do what works, and less/none of what does not work.
React accordingly.
I know a lot of people grab onto these rigidly as "THE RULES" - and assume if they do X and Y, in just the right order, all will be well. They expect it.
Sometimes they are furious when they have "Complied with the rules".
I wish it was that simple.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
it does get confusing, I know. You know what does not work. MAYBE doing the opposite of whatever does not work, is a start?
However, there is a paradox and it's fair to discuss it.
Here are lines from Swingers that may help.
And what if I don't want to give up on her?
ROB You don't call.
MIKE But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.
ROB Right.
MIKE So I don't call either way.
ROB Right.
MIKE So what's the difference?
ROB The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.
MIKE So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.
ROB Right.
MIKE Well that [censored].
ROB It [censored].
MIKE So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.
ROB Right...or more likely the opposite.
MIKE Right... Wait, what do you mean?
ROB I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.
MIKE Unless she comes back first.
ROB Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.
MIKE There's the rub.
ROB There's the rub.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Somewhere on here, I saw a list of rules after A. I should have saved it or bookmarked it. Anyone know where that is?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
From what I am seeing in these past couple of pages, is a newcomer who is bouncing off one thing to jump on another.......in hopes that something jars, shakes, or rattles your W out of the fog. I can tell you that all this bouncing around does not work to wake her up. You have to be consistent, and your changes must be based on your values and princples..........not some kind of kiss-a$$ junk you read on some web sites or some books I have seen. I don't know if was you or another poster who said one thread says this and another thread says that. Absolutely correct! Why? B/c all situations are cut by the same cookie cutter. IOW, I may not give identical advice to another poster in a different situation. (Although, I try to keep it as close to the same, as possible, simply b/c of the newcomers who have said the same as you). I may not give women the same advice as men. It will depend where they are in their situation. Plus, if you haven't read all their threads, then you may not know where they are on their particular pathway.
I have been known to write long posts, but there is no way under the sun to say everything at once. I sense frustration, and maybe you are on the verge of panic. We are all trying to help you, and explain a few things that may be confusing. Nothing is 100% fool proof. A WW is a fool, and you could change all your bad ways to being nearly perfect.......and she may even like some of them, but she still might not want to stay in the MR. Why? B/c her wayward mindset is the problem, now. Whatever may have happened in the past......her waywardness is the current issue, and nothing will succeed as long as she retains resentment and disrespect. Go ahead and improve the man you need to become, but don't do changes just to get her back, b/c it won't stick and you'll be back in the same boat again.
Last thought, I think you need to stop trying to shock her out of her fog. This becomes a real stumbling block for LBH's. Once you stop trying to do something to shock her out of the fog.....then you'll focus on what you want to change permantely.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I realize all are here to help, although a few may not have read the books. I have tried to help other in their struggle.
All situations are not the same and I realize there are stages. Not everyone is in the same stage. Your descriptions of WW and WAW are spot on for me. I have seen the demon. The W that only thinks and speaks in negatives. The completely out of character selfishness. Not so much this go-round but the last. I have read DR.
Things at my house are escalating fast and it is scary. I also know what doesn't work.
Things that I never realized before I have learned can affect my SITCH. D18 is leaving for college in Sept. D that she has cleaved to in the past. EXH of an old friend died last month. And I am still not sure if there is OM.
I have handled things very differently this time and I see results. I just don't know if the results are a good sign or temperature taking.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
