However, that same evening she came over and spent the night (no sex). But, in light of her coffee date and this other dude who she rebuffed, I am not interested in any physical contact with her for the time being. I think it's disrespectful to do that and then think she can come over and sleep in the bed with me and get some type of physical intimacy. I am not going to talk about it but if she asks to come over, I will clearly lay down my boundary - if she's looking for other dudes, I don't want her to come over and spend the night.
So glad to see you say so, b/c it is disrespectful to discuss other men with you. Also, you don't need to ask her any questions about dating or other men. As long as you show interest, she'll play with your heart.
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I know people have great experience with IC and MC here. What do you think?
Actually, I have not seen many positive results in MC when there is a wayward W involved.......and especially if there's an affair. Some WW's will suggest MC......not b/c they are ready to do the work to save their M, but rather, they use MC as an excuse of "trying everything and nothing worked".
As for IC, it depends on why you are seeking it. I have seen some people say it helped them get through the roughest part of their M stress. IMHO, if you go to an IC just to get advice for the M, you may get really confused about what to do. The more sources you have advising you about your MR, the more chance of getting conflicting advice.
Her seeing an IC, and whether or not it will push her to separate/divorce, depends a lot on that counselor, and if there are other issues she needs to address. There have been many reports of IC that actually encouraged the spouse to do whatever made them happy. (That's the last thing a WW should be told!). I have suggested IC before MC whenever a WW would start hinting about reconciliation, especially in extreme cases. The point is to help them with deep-seated issues that may have led them in some of their actions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So glad to see you say so, b/c it is disrespectful to discuss other men with you. Also, you don't need to ask her any questions about dating or other men. As long as you show interest, she'll play with your heart.
Thanks Sandi. I don't intend to bring it up unless she shows interest in staying the night over (which I don't see happening any time soon anyway). But, if that happens, this is the rough script that I plan to say:
"If you're interested in dating other men, I am not going to share the same bed as you."
And then depending on the situation, either walk away or just wait for her to say something. If she says that she's not dating other men, then I am not sure what I will do, but I might still not sleep with her in the same bed that night.
About the IC/MC issue:
I think that she has to address some deep seated issues that have caused long term depression for her. At least she has acknowledged that there are depression issues. So, I think an IC will help with that.
I have no control over the quality of the IC and what they will advise her to do. I can only do what needs to be done for my contributions to the marriage not working. I know she wants MC to do communication management and learning how we both can work together through potential conflicts. I don't see a point in that as I have no problem working through a conflict when it comes to issues around kids.
I am really curious to see if she follows through with the IC though. She has a history of not following up on things. But, I stated that I will consider MC if she does IC first. So, that is a boundary that I have put down. If she goes to IC, it will show some initiative on her part, and I need to see that. After that, if the MC is still just about learning how to communicate together, I have no interest in that. I want to go to MC to work on the M. So, it's a wait and see approach for now.
In the meantime, I am GAL'ing, working on detachment, and dropping the rope.
Today is the first day I have felt relatively calm. I have been putting like 25% of my efforts at work, but today I put in 75% and I hope to be 100% by the end of the week. GAL'ing, even by myself at times, has been huge in terms of taking my mind of the sitch and what she's doing. I honestly have cared very little today, so I will take it as a good day. I know it will be up and down, but today was fairly good.
Thanks Joseph9 - I am really working on that attitude and find emotional and mental peace.
What I have realized is that I have been so focused on analyzing every little move and action on my part, and I believe it is coming from a place where I am thinking that if I had done that differently, then maybe that would turn something small around.
I recognize that I am going to mess up a few times and do other things right. And that I just need to stop having any expectations and not play this like it's a game. I am always wondering - how did she react to this text? how did she feel me having no contact today? It's tiring and keeping me emotionally and mentally tense.
I have a fantastic GAL activity tonight that I have been looking forward to for a while.
I am also on the boards a lot reading and reading, and I need to chill out on that a bit. I don't contribute too much because I am still such a novice, but reading has helped a lot.
I will keep posting and journalling as I go along.
This is why I suggested asking her WHY she wants to do MC.
I went with my W to MC even though she wasn't yet willing to give up OM it's because she told me she wants to feel like she wants to make it work which was a radical shift from what she had initially said.
I have seen improvements because of the MC. In terms of the OM. I know she talks to him. Apparently not very frequently (just the eye-test confirms this. Since we spent a lot of time together she has been less on her phone and often she is texting with people that she brings up in a conversation with me or that I know are talking to her). She has said she doesn't want to see OM until we are in a good place (which I don't see how we are in a good place unless our MR is back on track). I am CHOOSING to believe her when she says there is a friendship with OM. That is a risk I am willingly taking (read my sitch and you will perhaps see other context and nuances of why I am doing that: i.e., I observe the responses and things just don't go well between us when I play hardball as that reinforces her fears about me).
I continue MC even with this situation because W seems to actually ACT on what we learn. I just don't see a worst-case-scenario where like Sandi2 she would say "well at least we tried this" she isn't just attending these sessions, she is letting the counselor KNOW what her own underlying issues are and she isn't taking the easy way out (or at least NOT in my eyes).
As I so often say on here I follow my gut.
So my advice would be: 1) Ask W why she wants MC try to see if she can be specific 2) Pursue MC if you accept her answer and see how that goes 3) Observe and reflect and see if you notice ANY changes... even baby steps. 4) work on yourself. Improve any flaws you had. Do 180s. All of the advice on here is SOUND advice. But each of us has a tiny fraction of nuance and context that is slightly different (in my eyes).
and most importantly: decide if you feel more comfortable with Sandi2's more hardline stance which is really sound advice and for the most part you can incorporate her rules even when you follow my "advice". Also read Bulldog's post in the sticky thread on her rules.
At the end of the day only YOU know what it is you want.
I knowingly choose to show grace and compassion and accept that in the end I may be played for a fool. I can respect myself a lot more by doing this. But I continue this because my W shows actions that give me hope. So it's about observing and continuing the things that work.
"If you're interested in dating other men, I am not going to share the same bed as you."
First of all, what is her excuse for wanting to stay all night at your place? Second of all, you might need to slow down and rethink going to bed with her right away. If she has been out with another man, then there's a chance she's had sex with someone else (you can't trust her word alone), and it would probably be a good idea not to hop in bed, until you see if she wants this relationship to go further than a night of sex. That's not how you reconcile with a WW. There have been too many reports of WW's "using" their LBH......in more than one way. So, be smart.
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I know she wants MC to do communication management and learning how we both can work together through potential conflicts
Sometimes, that is code for wanting to announce her plans to D, and do it in front of the counselor. Like you said, you have no control over her or the IC, so you just have to go with what you believe to be best for you.
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Today is the first day I have felt relatively calm. I have been putting like 25% of my efforts at work, but today I put in 75% and I hope to be 100% by the end of the week. GAL'ing, even by myself at times, has been huge in terms of taking my mind of the sitch and what she's doing. I honestly have cared very little today, so I will take it as a good day. I know it will be up and down, but today was fairly good.
Good for you! I've noticed the ones who have a better day, are the ones who plan the night before. They decide what music they will hear, movies to watch, places to see, self-help CD's to play, books to read......etc. When do usually have your weakest time of the day? Is it when you first get up in the mornings, walk in the house after work, or at bedtime? Plan ahead as to what you can change at the part of day you feel more vulnerable to sadness. You know you will have one of those times, sooner or later. It's when there is nothing to fall back on that makes you feel as if you are sinking. So have a plan for what to do when the wave of loneliness or sadness overwhelm.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks Tobias. I will go and re-read your sitch. I read it a while ago so I don't remember all the details. All of our sitch's have their nuances, so I am interested in the following specifics:
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I went with my W to MC even though she wasn't yet willing to give up OM it's because she told me she wants to feel like she wants to make it work which was a radical shift from what she had initially said.
I understand that it was a radical shift on part of your W, but how did that play out in terms of her gaining your respect? It seems like you had no expectations, but I am having a hard time wrapping around my head how going to MC while she still had contact with OM would increase her respect for you.
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I am CHOOSING to believe her when she says there is a friendship with OM. That is a risk I am willingly taking (read my sitch and you will perhaps see other context and nuances of why I am doing that: i.e., I observe the responses and things just don't go well between us when I play hardball as that reinforces her fears about me).
I see what you're saying. Right now for me I have to show her that I am not the old NGS and that I won't take her BS.
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But I continue this because my W shows actions that give me hope.
That's a good guiding benchmark for me because I am not where you are right now with my W. I definitely need to see some action on her part even before we get to MC. I just think she's not going to act on going to IC in a timely manner because one of her major issues is not taking initiative and following-up on things.
First of all, what is her excuse for wanting to stay all night at your place?
I believe it's loneliness and her being miserable. I know that I can't be the person who solves that for her right now if I want to turn this around.
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Sometimes, that is code for wanting to announce her plans to D, and do it in front of the counselor.
I totally see that. She has mentioned divorce early on after the BD, but only once. However, the change in language still indicates that she wants the D, but is talking about it in different ways. Lucky for me, where I am, you need to prove 12 months of separation before a court can grant you D. So, I have like 10 months before this is even a real possibility, and I'll see at that point what to do about it. I don't want to go to MC for divorce management.
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If she has been out with another man, then there's a chance she's had sex with someone else (you can't trust her word alone), and it would probably be a good idea not to hop in bed, until you see if she wants this relationship to go further than a night of sex.
That's definitely what I am thinking. It has to be more than one night of sex or even sharing the same bed.
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So have a plan for what to do when the wave of loneliness or sadness overwhelm.
Thanks, I am definitely more self-aware and working to plan my day and keep it full and interesting. I still think about her a lot and I know that it will decrease as I work through detachment over time.
After only 3 days of NC, W just texted me to see if I wanted to have a coffee or a glass of wine. I am going to a food festival tonight and I texted her that she is welcome to join me if she wants. W hasn't replied yet, but I don't care. I am going anyways because it's what I want to do.
Also, if she comes, I have zero expectations from her. This is my favourite food festival of the summer and I am going to go enjoy it.
Well....that's cool. I would fall over if I got that from my W. It's a good thing you still plan on going with or without her! Remember to play it cool......stick to your principals!
Well....that's cool. I would fall over if I got that from my W. It's a good thing you still plan on going with or without her! Remember to play it cool......stick to your principals!
Sorry man, but I hope this isn't coming across as any small victory in my sitch and that things are turning around for me. I know they're not and I also almost fell over when I got her text.
I read Benni8's sitch and how long it took for his W to do something with him. In my case, I think it's just W being lonely and not that something has radically changed. I won't always accept her invites, but this seems an opportunity to go have some fun and keep it light.
I don't have any expectations, but back in the day, we used to have a lot of fun. Let's see if we can have that without any heavy stuff to chat about.
