A familiar story with questions. II

[RR17]

RR

you mentioned that you reacted differently in 2013. But you also said you worked on yourself and felt you had improved as a man and h.

is that still how you see it?

Oh definitely, my industry took a big hit in the recession. I had my confidence, dignity as well as earning ability stripped away. I had become a grumpy, complainer that didn't feel respected. Hard on everyone and hurting inside. It had gone on for so long that I didn't even notice. A real miserable F***.
A week into the 2013 BD I had an epiphany. The discovery of Ws EA shook me so hard that, as Sandi has described, I took inventory of my being and saw things that I would have never realized had that not happened. I journaled about it and started to make the changes. As hard as it is to say, I am thankful for that part of that.
Now understand that although I had read a stack of books, IC, MC the whole lot, I had not discovered DB. That is why when I read MWD's words and Sandi's posting this time, it was an instant buy-in. I didn't need a beginners mind, I had tried and knew what doesn't work.


Did she say, back then, that she wanted to reconcile and repair the m?

Is she different now, than she was back then?

Well, she did go to MC and claimed to have read some of the material on helping your S heal from an A. She went to IC/MC but some what reluctantly and twice more I discovered that she wasn't ready and had not ended contact with OM.

Is she different now? Some of it seems the same, some different. At the moment I tend to discount the idea of another OM. One suspicious clue and I could change.
I realize that an OM is really just a symptom of the bigger problem, but it is an important factor if DB is to progress. She is facing her oldest 18D going off to college. She is a lot more independent this time because of changes made from last time.
Oh, yea, this time she is not dealing with a devastated basket case of a H.

At current, since my blow-up earlier this week, she is in a better place, especially since we resumed talking. Even before we broke the silence, I noticed a change in respect. Going Dark for a few days has had positive results.

If you could go back in time to that ordeal, (just for 5 minutes!), would you do anything differently?

Absolutely, If I had been aware of DBing I would have done the whole thing differently. As Sandi has said, the sooner one can implement the rules/180 etc. the sooner one can expect to see results. The easier one can hopefully shock them out of the fog.

"Pursuing" is a big one. Much like other facets that have gotten their own thread, this is a subject that I feel needs to be expanded on for other's to better understand. A cheat sheet of sorts. We LBH can pursue and not even realize it. It IMHO, is so much more than not following around and texting. It is easy to pursue and not realize you are doing it.
The very "human nature" responses that us LBS tend to exhibit make it worse. I can only wonder if I could have seen the value in DB without living the last go-round.

[RR17]

What I have seen work is when the H dumps the WW. Whether in his attitude, behavior, or legally. I use the word "dump" for a reason. It is much more effective when he dumps her, rather than him trying to survive what she does to him. You know how it affected you when you got the bomb drop. Well, that describes how she feels to see you actually dumping her. But it must be legit, b/c pretense doesn't work very well. Not only for him to dump her.......but to show no interest in her at all, and him living it up.

Well, that is my week in a nutshell. Yes I have seen very positive results since dumping her this week. Followed by Going Dark, so to speak.
She seemed happy when the lines of conversation opened up again.

Sooooo, where do I go from here? I restored some dominance and saw good results.
Friendly conversation has been the result.

Do I maintain some distance yet continue the new old best friend stuff?

[sandi2]

Sooooo, where do I go from here? I restored some dominance and saw good results.
Friendly conversation has been the result.

Do I maintain some distance yet continue the new old best friend stuff?

What you don't need to do is get comfortable in thinking this "dumping" business only takes one time to get the lasting desired results from her.

When you consider how you would conduct yourself with someone you washed your hands of............would you realy show interest in them? Would you really want to be their best friend?

IMHO, pursuing friendship with her at this time........will place you in a vulnerable position. Why? B/c you are showing interest in her! The WW should think she has been dumped by the guy she didn't want. He no longer is interested in her as a woman, a wife, or a friend. She's lost him. He has taken the initiative to drop her, and move forward in a life apart from her.

To understand how this works, takes you understanding the mindset of the WW. She will not want you until she believes she has lost you. She cannot have you b/c you are no longer interested in what she has to offer you. Currently, she is confident that she could turn on her charm, wiggle her a$$, and she'd being leading you around by the nose. Frankly, that's not much challenge for her. The challenge comes when it takes much more than her feminine charms to captivate your interest again. I mean, why would a man want to go through that hell again? When you can see through her temp checks and manipulation.......and you turn her down......then you are making progress. When you can say, "Thanks, but no thanks", she starts to believe she is losing you.

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

The best way I know how to describe it is to be hard to get. Don't be a pushover. Don't make it too easy for her to pull you back. Do you understand what I mean?

[RR17]

Thanks for your reply

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

Sooo, that what I feel I did most all of last week. I was gone before she woke and didn't return until bedtime. Until the dog crap when she got up early. I know it had an effect as she mentioned that it didn't seem we were even friends these last several days. I got some attention. I'm not sure it was the loss or fix but I'm going to call it a win.

Sandi, I do understand and value your words. You know these creatures better than any book or Dr. that has written a book and I have read a boat load.
What I don't trust is my own judgment.
My W is not a good actor. Not a phony charmer. And when I see a change I think she is turning the corner.

Confession: I tried to initiate sex twice this weekend. Both over text to avoid confrontation. She said no she "couldn't"

I asked her to please stop confusing "can't" with won't. She said she would try and that it would take some practice.
This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.
She doesn't hide her feeling well. She doesn't share them but she is not a faker either.
This morning she moved closer and well I am weak. Sex is how Hs temp check.
We spent the better part of the day together and ate alone without kids.

Last night we had a heart felt R talk and by that I mean I listened and validated. I also told her that she had been self-centered, defiant, rebellious.
Like you have said timing is everything and she stopped and contemplated my words. Didn't get mad or retaliate. She asked how so and I gave her examples of each. She seemed to listen and reflect.
She said she had been under a lot and cried. I encouraged her to let it all go. I comforted her. This was probably why I got laid this morning. I also told her why I suspected the A and she swears there is nothing going on. I caught her quickly stashing her phone Saturday as I walked up. She acknowledged doing it and said it was stupid and she shouldn't have done it and she understood why I would see it as suspicious. She was sorry and understood how it must have looked.
Now I understand how some Ws may use this as an elaborate cover-up, but it is not her MO.
I told her later that I tended to believe her. She was thankful and seemed genuinely pleased. Not like pleased he took the lie but like it mattered to her that I knew that it was not nefarious.

So that leaves this week. I am prepared to slip back into cold going dark if this is moving too fast. I am not so desperate for things to be fixed that I skip doing it the right way.

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure. At dinner tonight I was tempted say that I was surprised that she wanted to eat alone with me based on the awful things that she said in recent past. I didn't as I felt I was fishing for a R talk and why push it.

I need to keep a healthy perspective.
I am prepared to do whatever is best. Should I ask what's up with this change?

Going dark for 4 days doesn't seem long enough, but I do think a loss was felt. I did pull it off without seeming merely manipulative.

Thought?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your reply

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

Sooo, that what I feel I did most all of last week. I was gone before she woke and didn't return until bedtime. Until the dog crap when she got up early.


RR, I have a few 2 x 4's for you but I know you can take it!

"most of last week" is a blink.

The math of this is approach is that

"consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Then you can respond accordingly. Not before. Your w does not yet have a "new you" to respond to. Not enough time or consistency from you.


I know it had an effect as she mentioned that it didn't seem we were even friends these last several days. I got some attention. I'm not sure it was the loss or fix but I'm going to call it a win.


Sorry to seem like a wet blanket, but again, this^^ is so short lived and so "not enough" that you are really setting yourself up for disappointment.

Your timeline must be elongated exponentially, or any "results" you see will be puny or temporary.

You need to do a behavior for 90 days before monitoring for results, or do at least 30. Seriously.


What I don't trust is my own judgment.


Don't be too hard on yourself, b/c this^^ is true for most of us, or we would not have felt blindsided by our spouse's decision.

Unfortunately In the next sentence below, you apply the very judgement you have good reason to doubt.

My W is not a good actor. Not a phony charmer. And when I see a change I think she is turning the corner.


you are trusting your own questionable judgement here^^^ and you are seeing what you hope is true. Not necessarily what is true.

A "change" of any sort in that brief a time is too short to even notice.

Try not to "notice" anything short of a BIG CLEAR behavior on her part. If the time comes, you will not have to guess or mind read.

Let that^^ sink in.


Confession: I tried to initiate sex twice this weekend. Both over text to avoid confrontation. She said no she "couldn't"

Asking to be intimate is serious pursuit. Period.

And doing it by text is not to avoid confrontation, but to avoid facing rejection in person.

It comes across as pursuit done with so much fear attached, that it could not be done in person.

Unless it's consensual flirting by text, an attempt for intimacy made in the least intimate format, is not going to go well imo.


I asked her to please stop confusing "can't" with won't. She said she would try and that it would take some practice.

more pursuit ^^ with a dose of semantics.

She rejected your request and then you seemed to argue about it. It's not a position you want to be in. The more you challenge her choices - the more you force her to defend them, and the more you corner her.

I know this is hard but it's not complex. In this scenario You are setting yourself up for rejection, getting rejected, and then arguing about the use of the term"won't" instead of "can't."

I don't see the point of that.

If she said she "won't" be intimate, as opposed to "cannot" be intimate, how would that make it better?
I'm asking because it's not clear to me what difference that makes.


This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.


I'm confused. What is the "big leap" you're referring to? Is it that she said she'd try to use the term "won't" instead of "can't"?


She doesn't hide her feeling well. She doesn't share them but she is not a faker either.
This morning she moved closer and well I am weak. Sex is how Hs temp check.
We spent the better part of the day together and ate alone without kids.

Last night we had a heart felt R talk and by that I mean I listened and validated. I also told her that she had been self-centered, defiant, rebellious.


I don't see how labeling her behavior and telling her these^^ negative things is validating. And I don't see how it gets you closer to your goal.

Also, What we say here on this site, is usually not something to say to the WAS.
Plus the wording strikes me as a shaming tactic that will push her farther away.


Like you have said timing is everything and she stopped and contemplated my words. Didn't get mad or retaliate. She asked how so and I gave her examples of each. She seemed to listen and reflect.
She said she had been under a lot and cried. I encouraged her to let it all go. I comforted her. This was probably why I got laid this morning.


You said sex is how you temperature check. Which is unfortunate, b/c It may not be hard for her to go alone with it. And you may misinterpret or project your feelings onto her actions. I assume she knows your method of temperature checking, correct?

I also told her why I suspected the A and she swears there is nothing going on. I caught her quickly stashing her phone Saturday as I walked up. She acknowledged doing it and said it was stupid and she shouldn't have done it and she understood why I would see it as suspicious. She was sorry and understood how it must have looked.
Now I understand how some Ws may use this as an elaborate cover-up, but it is not her MO.

what is her MO? So, What do you think She wants from you as a husband?

I told her later that I tended to believe her. She was thankful and seemed genuinely pleased. Not like pleased he took the lie but like it mattered to her that I knew that it was not nefarious.


Yikes, tons more mind reading here^^.

If & When she is ready to commit, you will not need to guess and mind read. You won't always be the marriage police.

Unless there is clarity and commitment from her, why would you agree to a reconciliation anyhow?

Do you get my point?

I'm echoing what Sandi said in her last post to you. And the Swingers script is very much along the "dump" the WAS theme.

It's about real detachment and sometimes you have to fake it till you make it.


So that leaves this week. I am prepared to slip back into cold going dark if this is moving too fast. I am not so desperate for things to be fixed that I skip doing it the right way.


what do you mean "moving too fast"? Why would you pursue again, at this point?

Can you get some short term goals for yourself? Specific short term goals?

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure.

If she is not committed to the m yet, what is being decided right now?


At dinner tonight I was tempted say that I was surprised that she wanted to eat alone with me based on the awful things that she said in recent past. I didn't as I felt I was fishing for a R talk and why push it.


It IS 100% R talk and it is complete pursuit. You are asking her to reassure you.

Maybe one short term goal is to let her initiate a reassuring comment or behavior without any push from you.

You may need to get the proverbial "STFU smoothie" and drink it when you get the urge to have another one of these pursuit R talks


I need to keep a healthy perspective.
I am prepared to do whatever is best.

Should I ask what's up with this change?

No.

It's another request for reassurance from her, which is more pursuit from you.


Going dark for 4 days doesn't seem long enough,

it's not nearly long enough. No question.

You need to put the microscope away and get some space. How are your GAL -"don't obsess" detachment efforts going?

Hang in there.

[RR17]

This quote is getting too long and I need to break it down.

"most of last week" is a blink.

The math of this is approach is that

"consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Then you can respond accordingly. Not before. Your w does not yet have a "new you" to respond to. Not enough time or consistency from you.

The only new me she saw was the me that was prepared to dump her a$$. There was as close to NC as possible while living in the same house. This may not have been long enough but it was very different.

Sorry to seem like a wet blanket, but again, this^^ is so short lived and so "not enough" that you are really setting yourself up for disappointment.

Your timeline must be elongated exponentially, or any "results" you see will be puny or temporary.

You need to do a behavior for 90 days before monitoring for results, or do at least 30. Seriously.

I realize this and it was the point of the whole post. I think I may have done a poor job of communicating some of these points, but the main point is that I know it was a short time and that monitor and adjust is where things get tricky. If she moves closer and I continue to go dark, it will have a very different result than if I validate. See what I mean.
I went dark if only for a few days. It had a profound effect. It did.

you are trusting your own questionable judgement here^^^ and you are seeing what you hope is true. Not necessarily what is true.

A "change" of any sort in that brief a time is too short to even notice.

Try not to "notice" anything short of a BIG CLEAR behavior on her part. If the time comes, you will not have to guess or mind read.

Let that^^ sink in.

This is why I said I don't trust my own judgment. No that I don't know the caricature of this W. I do. I also know she is not acting as herself 100%

Asking to be intimate is serious pursuit. Period.

And doing it by text is not to avoid confrontation, but to avoid facing rejection in person.

It comes across as pursuit done with so much fear attached, that it could not be done in person.

Unless it's consensual flirting by text, an attempt for intimacy made in the least intimate format, is not going to go well imo.

Well, consensual flirting is pursuing IMO. How do you know that it is consensual without first pursuing?

I know that texting was avoiding rejection to a point. "No" in a text is also rejection. What it did do is avoid any chance of an argument. That alone was my reason. I don't care about being rejected. I just don't want an argument. She said "I can't" I said "Okay". No more pursuit. No chance of a fight.

more pursuit ^^ with a dose of semantics.

She rejected your request and then you seemed to argue about it. It's not a position you want to be in. The more you challenge her choices - the more you force her to defend them, and the more you corner her.

Here I disagree. It is way more than semantic.

"Can't" is denying any personal ownership and External Locus.
"I won't" say's I refuse to. Internal Locus
Big difference IMO
It is not arguing. She didn't get defensive. The time seemed right and I said it. It had very little to do with my attempted initiation. More to do with owning one's own decisions.

[RR17]

25yearsmlc

Thanks and I will continue to address your post soon when I get a chance. We are having this eclipse thing today and people are going nuts.

[RR17]

This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.


I'm confused. What is the "big leap" you're referring to? Is it that she said she'd try to use the term "won't" instead of "can't"?

It is a big leap for her stubborn a$$ to say that she will try and that demonstrate a desire to meet my needs.
Huge shift.

[RR17]

You said sex is how you temperature check. Which is unfortunate, b/c It may not be hard for her to go alone with it. And you may misinterpret or project your feelings onto her actions. I assume she knows your method of temperature checking, correct?

I believe all men temp check this way. Does she know it. I have no idea.
Could she go along with sex to deceive? Sure, but I doubt that it wouldn't be obvious. WW/WAW are very focused on being true to themselves, IMO. This is one area that she would struggle with a ruse in spite of being true to herself.

With my W? Possible, not probable.

[RR17]

what do you mean "moving too fast"? Why would you pursue again, at this point?

Can you get some short term goals for yourself? Specific short term goals?

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure.

If she is not committed to the m yet, what is being decided right now?

Okay, here is where I believe left room for confusion.
By "going too fast" I mean lowering my guard. I went from, I'm taking over and suing you cheating butt and it's going to be ugly to NC for 4 days to whatever bliss we had this weekend.
She has pursued me all weekend long.

I hope this better explains thing.