Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[hoosjim]

Sorry I caused all the problems asking about communion. I guess I'll keep my follow-up question about the communion wine to myself. smile

No, no problem, really. I was the one who was a bit imprecise in how I worded that whole thing.

But you're right: The very first time I went to Church with her following BD in January and saw that she didn't take communion I was thinking to myself: "It's because of the affair". I have continued to be on the lookout for her to go to confession and start taking communion again, because I think that would be a REALLY good sign, and not just from the standpoint of "The A is dead", but also from the standpoint of "she's not rebelling against her faith anymore." But, obviously, that's a place she's got to get herself to.

The other thing I was on the lookout for was her taking down her FB front page pic of the flowers OM sent her, which, to me, had been a big sign of her waywardness and rebelliousness--even though she did not know that I strongly suspected the flowers were from OM (though she has since confirmed they were). She did take that down in August, replacing it with a picture of our two boys, which I considered a good sign. OTOH, I should probably ask her why she did NOT take them down sooner (she had supposedly committed to the MC and to no-contacting OM approximately three weeks prior to that), but that and asking about the jewelry was something that completely slipped my mind for some reason at that time.

But Sandi2 is right-- it's actions more than words. Which is why I think communion an confession would be a really big deal for her, and for us.

[TBSakaJ9]

HJ....before my W moved out she was going out all the time hanging with her teacher friends. Getting drunk, not being able to drive home, showing no interest at all in being home and spending time with the family. It felt like the more she did it the more addicted she got. She started sleeping in the other room and looking back was just going through the motions.

I think during that time the resentment started to build and then it led to BD. Then IMO she got scared and said she didn't want a D but also didn't want to go to MC. That lasted for about 1 to 2 weeks and then she went out on a night when my D's had friends over for a sleepover. She was only supposed to be gone for about 2 hours and come home. That 2 hours turned into 4 and she showed up wasted at the house with 4 little girls running around. At that moment I knew it was over, she told me she wanted to be selfish and she didn't care. She wants to do what she wants to do and doesn't care what anyone thinks.

She was dressing up, hitting the gym, going tanning, fake eyelashes, new bathing suit etc. etc. I can tell you from my experience there was nothing I could do to stop the train. She suggested living as roommates and staying together for the kids in a sexless marriage which I told her I didn't want. She also could not give me a reason why she felt the way she felt. Early on when I was grilling her over it she even made a comment that don't you notice I have to drink a beer to even have sex with you. Ouch that stung a little. The thing is that I am an attractive guy but for whatever reason her spidey senses where not digging what I was laying down.

My W has surrounded herself with enablers much like your W has that she can go out with, party and do whatever they want. Not having our children 50% of the time, in her eyes, is the reward.

Unfortunately you have some tough decisions to make as I would agree she is just going through the motions and you are only getting whatever scraps she leaves behind. If my W would have stayed in the home and we did what you are trying to do I would been your same shoes.

Best of luck to you!

[Coconut]

This is you trying to fix it yourself, and doesn't get you anywhere. unless she says "NO, I'm done", you will still be in the same place. You cannot do anything to get her where you want her to be, she needs to do it.

Idunno, I think there's actually quite a bit I can do. I can refuse to live in a sham marriage. I can refuse to participate in sham marriage counseling.

I still don't think you are getting it.. You telling her in M counseling that you need ..., is you trying to convince her to do something.

You not living in a sham marriage, or refuse in participating in M counseling, are actions that you can take. They don't require talking to her about it. Stop thinking that you have to run every decision by her first, decide what YOU want and act on that, without a discussion with her.

But I still recommend you stop spinning before you do anything.

[hoosjim]

Idunno. I'm just... last night was as discouraged as I have been in a while. I mean, I am almost a year into this thing and sometimes I think I'm no closer to a resolution than I was in January.

[doodler]

hoosjim,

You know the common definition of insanity so I won't repeat it. The DR version of that is "cheese-less tunnel." What you've been doing clearly isn't working so it's a good time to switch things up.

Move forward with your life as you'd like it and let her decide to come along for the ride (or not). Give up the fight and go on your own journey and experience life to the fullest.

[sandi2]

she told me she wanted to be selfish and she didn't care. She wants to do what she wants to do and doesn't care what anyone thinks.

Just for anyone who stumbles onto this subject..........

When the core of her waywardness is totally selfishness, and she has the attitude of "to hell with anyone else", I think the H who continues a relationship....hoping she'll "snap out of it", is actually enabling her. A woman of this wayward nature must reap the consequences of that selfishness. People with this level of selfishness, are not going to snap out of it. Forget snapping out of it. , as if suddenly coming to her senses. They have to learn. Don't we have to teach children not to be selfish? She has to learn that there is a heavy price tag for chunking how others feel, in the name of self indulgence. Even after being convinced, there is no promise she will change what's in her heart. It is a choice. She wants what she wants......and she simply doesn't care. That sums it up. She and has no value for anyone else.

Although I am responding to what Joseph said, I am referring to any person who fits the description he gave about his W. It's tragic the suffering that comes from the hands of just one individual with this level of selfishness.

[Coconut]

Life is tough man, you're doing your best to save your M, and it's disheartening to not see the R not move forward. For now, maybe you should take a break, focus on the your sons and the holidays and give yourself a break from the worry and wonder.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, what is it that turns a previously good woman's heart that way? Based on my own sitch, I would be tempted to say neglect or the like. Except that I've seen accounts of several cases on here where, supposedly, everything in the marriage was fine, and you read elsewhere about wives going wayward Wyland marriages that to all outward appearances are just fine.

[sandi2]

Sandi, what is it that turns a previously good woman's heart that way?

The key words in your question are "previously good". These are the women I have hope in turning back to their previous moral & spiritual values. It does sound as if your W is dealing with spiritual rebellion. I've seen it go either way. If the person truly believed in their particular religion, and it wasn't just going through some ritual motions......then naturally, there is hope that they will be spiritually convicted and turn back. That's something she has to work out with God. Right now, she is like a rellious child and doesn't want to hear God's message. Perhaps she was being defiant by not taking communion, or maybe she was being honest.....or both. But it shows she is struggling with two wills, and she doesn't like the "Thou shalt not" commandments at the moment.

Let me comment once more on the selfishly driven WW. The woman who has been a spoiled, selfish brat all her life.......taking what she wants at the expense of others.......is less likely to ever change, without some life altering experience. When I was young, I believed love would change people like this, but now.....I'm not as naive. I've seen selfish people fall in love and seem to change for a very brief time, but their selfishness doesn't stay dormant for long. This WW will usually b'tch at her H, hammering him down and demanding to have her way. She's always had a mean streak in her, b/c of her sense of entitlement......and she doesn't care what others think. She may keep it hidden from the guy she wants to marry, but after the wedding it starts showing up. It's very unattractive!

The woman who does not have that self centeredness and seemly has a good heart.......IMHO, reacts from her MR that has left her feeling empty and emotionally dead. She longs for romantic intimacy, tenderness, fun, etc. with her H. Going without for a long time may cause her to seek out novels or movies that feed an unmet desire in her heart. If she doesn't receive the things she desires from her H and their MR, she will often have an ongoing fantasy of how her life might be with someone else. And this can lead her into a vulnerable emotional state.

She may be dealing with several issues about herself, which adds to her feelings of unhappiness and lack of personal fulfillment. Resentment toward her H and their situation turn to bitterness, anger/rage, and all those negative traits LBH's know so well. These feelings breed disrespect for her H, and how much she shows it......will vary from woman to woman. At some point, she begins to rebel. It may start with small acts of defiance and go on to something that will destroy the M.

There may be a tipping point that leads some WW's to cross the line to have an A with another man. Some women may have a revenge A, or an exit A. IMHO, I think the majority of stories on the board are about women who have dealt with personal loneliness, lack of romantic intimacy and other unmet needs for a long time. They don't actually "plan" to become a WW, but they have developed a WW mindset. Therefore, they continue to push the boundaries and become a little more daring in tempting whatever situation they find themselves at that moment. They feel an excitement, a thrill that tells them they aren't completely dead after all. They are hooked and want more. They are starved for that kind of attention or excitement......whatever it is.

It is usually so contrary (for these women) with who they always were........that they become very defensive, trying to justify their actions. They may think they have spent their life doing what someone else wanted, or giving their time raising kids, and now it's her time. Selfishness seems to fuel her actions. Once she gets a taste of the "thrill", and feeling "alive", she is hooked and that addiction is the driving force. It's as if she's been without food & water for years......and felt she was slowly dying. Now, she feels alive. What will it take for her to see this is all a fantasy? What will it take for her to find her way back?

This does not describe every WW. It would take a book. The personalities, background, and situations all vary. I believe there is definitely a commonality among WW's mindset. Emotionally, I think most women want the same thing in a MR. The couple may have maintained a friendship or sorts, but it doesn't replace the yearning desire in her heart for the romantic closeness & loving relationship that makes her feel special and alive.

[hoosjim]

So, this afternoon, we have a previously-scheduled MC session via Skype. This is the last one we currently have scheduled, though MC has urged us to keep scheduling regular appointments and to schedule at least one "intensive" (2-4 hours) in-office every 4-6 weeks. I am sure that will come up again today as today is our last one on her calendar.

I am seeking input on how I should be thinking of approaching this session, and what issues, if any, I should be bringing up, while keeping in the back of my mind that it is Christmas, a week-long family trip to see both our families looms starting the 26th for the ensuing week, and what effect me dropping too much of a bomb right now would have on everything. So, that is issue 1:

1) In general Should I just soft-peddle this session, play it passive, validate when she talks, and basically keep all my cards hidden for now? If not, how much should I open up about and to what extent? MC, FWIW, has preached and continues to preach full and open honesty at all times, including about what we are feeling and, in general, I am feeling very, very turmoiled and very, very "not safe" right now in this relationship. I have heard input ranging from "bring it up after christmas and tell her I won't work on this if it is not working towards an intimate/sexual marriage" to "don't say anything, just pull back based on your concerns and stop scheduling MC sessions". There is a lot of stuff on my mind including:

2) The recent bout of sleeping apart, when she spent four of six nights on the sofa claiming she was just tired and fell asleep and was too lazy/tired to come upstairs, which bout only ended after I mentioned to her that it concerned me because that had been a dynamic leading up to our recent problems-- either of us finding excuses to sleep outside of the MBR. This relates also to

3) Her talking about "not being able to see us as being intimate, even though she is willing to work towards that". FWIW this was discussed previously and she says she only meant that from "where she was standing now, it was very hard for her to see that happening, even as she understood from what MC said that it is possible." She remains scared that "we will put in the time on that and keep trying but that it won't happen."

4) Her offhand comments on a couple of occasions that, in essence, indicates she sees herself as the kind of person who wants to do some things contrary to "what others think is proper".

5) Related, seemingly, to "4", and a separate issue in itself that we already discussed at LW's MC session, is her intentional visit to a clothing store that is in the same strip mall as OM's favorite pub, on a day he was fairly likely to be there. As a reminder, she told me she was going there, I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, and she went anyway (and told me later), saying she wanted to "show that she could do it" and "didn't need to be afraid of going places."

6) Her seeming discomforture in recent months in church, her failure to go to confession or communion since the advent of the A, and her increased willingness to skip mass. This seems to me to be a rebellion thing, given her fairly strict catholic upbringing, as well as a likely overhang from her affair guilt. (she's always had a difficult time admitting mistakes/failures--as an example took her almost three years to get up the guts to go to confession after a terminated pregnancy in college).

7) Failure to put back on wedding ring-- I have not yet broached this subject with her.

8) Nearly two hour shopping trip she took out of the house two weekends back without her phone (which she knows I can track and volunteered awhile back to enable tracking on). She came back with bags and receipts from three different stores that probably didn't allow her time for any shenanigans but... I have no way of knowing for sure, and very unlike her to go anywhere without her phone.

9) She's had a couple of get-togethers with her WW bff, none really monitored by me, though the one time I did some checking up and am pretty sure given the circs that she just saw bff for dinner. At any rate, every time she gets together with bff, she comes away a little distant, a little more moody. As a reminder, bff is a VERY wayward woman, engaged in an EMA and constantly trumpeting how "she's never been happier", how she and my W were denied happiness for so long, and how "sometimes you just have to pick you"

10) Two recent discoveries of facts concerning her A with Om that I did not previously know about and which I find troubling: First, we were talking after LW's MC session about who knew about what, and I decried the fact that her bff's AP (who is a frat brother and former friend of both mine and of bff's STBXH) knew from bff about our situation and about her R with OM-- W tells me, with certainty, "Oh, he doesn't know, bff hasn't told him..." Which I know for a fact to be a falsehood because a) my own best friend told me that bff's AP told him he knew about it and b) During one of my surveillance phases months ago I overheard bff tell my W that "it's still weird for AP to see pictures of you together with OM" (and not with me-- remember, AP and I were frat bros and friends and he has a long history of seeing me and my W together). I am also pretty sure my BF told me that AP told him he had seen pics of my W and OM. I said nothing at the time my W said "he doesn't know" but... it bothers me. This is in the past and she is supposed to be able to be honest with me about that kind of thing.

11) Second recent discovery about the A is that picture of flowers posted as W's background photo on FB was, in fact, a picture of flowers OM had sent her AT HER OFFICE! (Brazen SOB.) I had suspected this to be the case, though W had previously maintained they were flowers sent to another coworker that she just thought were very pretty and reminded her of Hawaii. When she took the picture down off of her front page and replaced it with a shot of our boys in August, I thought of that as a potentially good sign (if, in fact, the flowers had been from OM.) Well, she confirmed to me LW that those flowers had in fact been sent to her by OM. This did NOT, however, reinforce my feelings that taking the pic down was a "Good sign". Rather, it made me mad (and has been making me increasingly mad) that she left it up as her FB front page for an entire month after we had our big "reveal" and supposed commitment to work on "us" on July 23rd. She will say she uninstalled FB from her phone and did not go on for a lengthy period of time... but she was definitely back on before 8/23 when the pic came down. (she did unfriend and block OM and his friends, and gave me her FB password.) Also, the picture, while taken down, is still in her FB photo archive.

12) I have suspicions about a couple of pieces of jewelry from earlier this year that she still has and wears, but nothing concrete. My MC said I should bring this up to W and discuss my concerns (but this MC thinks we should bring up and discuss everything because "secrets are bad.") I even have suspicions about a necklace she has been wearing-- nothing fancy, just a silver ring bisected by a silver chain-- that showed up a couple of weeks back around the time she had an unsupervised evening outing with bff. I think she says she picked it up at CVS or a discount store (which she does quite frequently with costume jewelry) but... she literally has not taken the thing off, even to sleep, in two weeks. I told her I "really liked it" right after she got it and a few days later but... I sincerely doubt she's wearing it 24/7 for that reason.

13) The two "new data points" in 11 and 12, above, along with the MC's urging for "full honesty" and my insistence to W a while back that she be honest and not tell me any falsehoods about the A, are making me want to revisit the beach trip over July 4 weekend. That was before we entered the intensive counseling phase on week of 7/23 and before my W cut things off with OM, and, so, is "covered" as prior misbehavior BUT... the fact that there is pretty much no way she and bff did NOT hang out with OM during that trip but yet denied, two or three times, that there was any contact continues to really, really bother me. She and bff both had a very close relationship, in my wife's case nearly daily contact for a time, with OM, and that beach trip had been planned since last December. There is no way that OM did not know they were going to be there and no way they did not know Om would be there (which he was, a mere three blocks down the boardwalk-- stupid SOB posted a pic on FB of himself standing outside of a well known beach bar there on that weekend.) It borders on the impossible to think that they did not at some point meet up and it pretty much is impossible to think that W did not at least know Om was going to be there when she left early from our family vacation at a nearby shore destination to go have her three day "girls weekend" with bff and another friend. Yet she denies all knowledge, at least as of the last time this was brought up a couple of months back.

Maybe I'm just obsessing about some of this but, dammit, I want the frigging decks cleared. If we are going to move forward we cant have these things overhanging from the past. And dishonesty or burying it or ignoring it ain't gonna help. We also gotta act like we are married if we are going to BE married and try to re-establish that relationship. If you go into something planning to fail... chances are you're going to fail.

A lot of this stuff amounts to "not acting like we're married", which is probably how I would couch it. Thoughts? Bring any of this up? None of it? Lay low, wait until new year and bring some or all of it then? Just chuck it all, play dumb and quiet during MC today and then go dark and let her figure it out?



Oh, and how could I forget:

14) The "kiss incident". Which, oddly, doesn't tick me off that much about her. I think I even understand why she said what she said and I don't think she was necessarily playing any games with me, BUT... the unreturned kiss I found very, very, very off-turning. It was a BIG turnoff for me. So much so that I did not even find myself attracted to her for a couple of days (and she is a very physically attractive woman and I have a VERY normal male libido these days). That REALLY whigged me out a bit, because I thought I would always be attracted to her no matter what. What I felt those days really troubled me and made me feel very hollow and empty, and has continued to trouble me a since then, though I once again feel an attraction towards the woman. This whole angle of it is something that I did not reveal nor discuss.