WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT- READ THIS!

[EastTN]

I just added it to my list in the resources - keep adding good nuggets to make it even better.

I haven't seen this happen since I've been here, so congrats and thanks Zues for making every DBers life just a little bit better.

[Maika]

Yes Yes!!! Thanks Zeus for this post. This is incredible. From my own personal perspective where WAW was throwing crumbs at me and I had no idea what was going on, it created so much confusion and heartache for me. I wish I understood this much better back then, but I do now.

I also upvote this to be either a sticky or part of the LBS resources.

I just want to add one thing with is keeping with the spirit of this post, but it is slightly tangential. It is probably one of the best pieces of insight that I got here and every LBS should know this. The credit for this goes to AnotherStander who laid it out in plain terms when I was in the throes of my confusion. His insight really opened my eyes and I am putting it here in my words (I will try and go back later and find what AS exactly said)

Quick caveat: I know some people on the board don't like using the word 'fog' as it stands. They think it's too reductive and maybe negative to portray the WAS in that light. I am using the term 'fog' here to describe the mindset and attitude rather than saying that it is negative or not. For me it represents confusion and mental jedi mind-tricks to rationalize the situation - for both the LBS and the WAS.

The 'FOG'

Both the LBS and the WAS spend some time living in the 'fog'. The interesting thing is that this 'fog' is diametrically opposed for the LBS and the WAS.

The LBS 'fog' is all about looking at the MR and their spouse with rose-colored glasses and thinking that the MR breakdown was all their fault. If they can just reverse some of their faults quickly, or do more around the house, or spend more time with kids, or pay more attention to their spouse, the WAS will change their mind or come back. In this 'fog', the LBS can't see clearly that they were not the only one responsible for the MR breakdown, and that they were also unhappy with some things in the MR. But, in the LBS 'fog' all of this is obscured and the LBS tries to grab on to any crumbs or shreds of life from the WAS to restore the MR. Once this fog slowly starts to clear and the LBS can see that they are worthy of love, respect, and can see the MR in a more objective light. They also realize that they were unhappy and that their needs weren't being met either. As soon as this 'fog' clears, the LBS is able to take charge of their life, have more control, and realize that they will not go back into the old MR again.

On the opposing side:

The WAS 'fog' is projecting most of the blame on the LBS and rewriting MR history. During this time they can hold anger, resentment, rage etc towards the LBS. The mindset hinders their ability to take responsibility for their contributions to the breakdown of the MR and that their unhappiness is not the sole result of the actions of the LBS. Once their 'fog' starts clearing, they can see more objectively about the MR and realize their contributions to its breakdown. Whether they want to do something about that is a different story, but until this 'fog' clears, they are really hindered in seeing what they brought to the table as well. Sandi has written extensively about the WW mindset, which every LBS should read as well.

A more simpler way to describe the difference in the 'fog' is that the LBS 'internalizes' the faults and the WAS 'externalizes' the faults. I know this may sound overly simplistic and it isn't always fully true, but it is a start to at least unpacking the feelings and thoughts that accompany the 'fog' mindset.

I apologize if I have misrepresented the concept as someone else understands it. I am just sharing what I thought was very useful insight for me about the 'fog' mindset as this is all consuming in the early stages after BD.

[Ginger1]

Zues,

I think this is the best post on these boards in the 10 years I have been on here.

[chris19]

Zeus +++

Your not the ruler of the Olympian Gods, but rather the LBS's.

I will take your advice and continue to read this thread over and over until I completely understand it; so I can get out of my own way while DB'ing. Each sentence I read, I can think of an exact moment which happened during the past few months within my sitch.

[sandi2]

You know, of course, that I love Zues' post, b/c it is not sugar coated, and brings to light a very important lesson. This is a perfect example of how the LBH has to keep detached, or he will be suckered into every little emotional down time his W experiences.

You LBH's understand what it's like to miss the life you had, before she pulled the rug out from under you. Well, she misses parts of it, too. She misses the comfortable parts, like missing a pair of her favorite house shoes. She misses the family togetherness, the family outings, family traditions, etc. She may miss the friendship or support she felt with you. However, my point is that everything is about her. Everything has a selfish angle, whether you can see it or not. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak. It's all about her feelings.....and hers only. It does not mean she is offering a olive branch, as so many LBH's want to think. It does not mean she's having second thoughts about ending the M.

She may turn to you when she has the blues or feels disappointed/worried, b/c that's what she used to do when you were together. She knows you'll soothe her feelings. So, she uses your shoulder to cry on, to get sympathy. It's all about her feelings.......not yours, not the kids or anyone else.

WAS's are much farther gone that we think.

Very true, and it's going to take more of the right kind of work and a lot more time before she'll be in the right place (mentally & emotionally) to return to a committed MR. For some, by the time the bomb drops, several years have built to that point.....and she's announcing that it's over. Some LBH's misinterpret the BD to mean she wants him to change and work on the MR. That is not what she's saying. She is saying it is over and she is done!

The board focuses a lot on the LBS making changes. I think a lot of newcomers have the idea that these changes are the "work" that gets the other spouse back into the relationship. Well, if it had been caught way before the BD, maybe that would have been the ticket. However, by the time people find their way to the board, it has gone way past that mark. I'm not saying it's a waste of time to work on self improvements. It's never too late to improve yourself. In most of the cases I've read about, the type of changes the LBH needed to make was in the dynamics of the relationship.

Here's the thing, the LBH has a work to do.....and his W has a work to do. Their work is not parallel nor on the same time clock. His work and her work will look somewhat different and her work will appear to come later than his. Much of her work will be internal, but the results should definitely show overtly. She will not feel the need to change until she is convinced she has been very, very wrong. This condition usually doesn't come until she has suffered the loss of something very valuable to her, or an accumulated loss.

The LBH should not fear his W experiencing consequences. It's the only thing that will bring her out of the fantasy she's created. Reality can be a real b'tch, and she needs a lot of it.....and the quicker, the better.

In conclusion, if you are seeing signs that your spouse wants to return, post all about it here. Get it out of your system. Overreact on these forums. Tell us how it's going to work out after all, that we were wrong, that YOU KNEW your WAS, you KNEW they would fall back into your arms, that you think you are in piecing, etc, etc, etc. But please, for all that is good and holy, stay detached from them outwardly and give them time to see if they actually recommit, show true remorse, and prove it to you with consistent behavior over time.

I agree. Plus, I've never seen a successful reconciliation where they just fell into each other's arms. As previously stated by Zues, it's just not that simple. Only in the movies, does that work. In real life, there has to be a lot more, as Zues has pointed out. I don't recommend that any LBH take back his W if she is not remorseful and committed. If she's laying down the terms of their reconciliation......don't do it. She is in no position (unless the LBH was the offender....and that's another subject).

Feeling remorse and actually committing are two separate things. Some women feel regret after they have D and M someone new. Some women feel regret, but it doesn't automatically cause them to want back into a committed MR with the LBH. I think a lot of LBH's try to put words into the W's mouth. They shouldn't. He can ask her questions, if she doesn't say what he needs to hear......like if she's fully committed to do whatever it takes to save the MR. And, let me tell you......there's some women who just don't feel that ready! They want to tell the LBH what he needs to do. All of that can be talked out, once she makes known if she's willing to do what he needs to feel safe in the MR again.

I plead with all the LBH's to not get in a hurry to take back your W. Take time to see if she's changed. Arrange therapy sessions for whatever issues were in the MR. Usually, there is much healing required. During this time, slowly start seeing each other (dating) in fun settings, having shared time with the kids, etc. Don't worry about rushing in too quickly on the romantic stuff, but do find out if she's willing to have an intimate MR. If she not, then you may want to really reconsider reconciling.

Of course, I'm wasting my breath on some of you, b/c you'll want to start living together as soon as she apologizes and jump into bed that night. I wish I could get you to take it much, much slower. It would save a lot of future heartache.

[petri]

When reading the posts from Zues, Maika and Sandi, I know, I'm in the right place for right kind of help. For example in Finland you wouldn't get this kind of help. Everyone just tells you get over it, plenty of fish in the sea, you're never going to save it. Maybe I'm not able to save my marriage but here my thoughts are not crushed totally. So thank you for being here and giving us hope on saving your marriages.

And in Finland if I was to talk about terms like WW or WAW...I would be laughed at.

[Cadet]

Maybe I'm not able to save my marriage but here my thoughts are not crushed totally. So thank you for being here and giving us hope on saving your marriages.

When flying in an airplane that loses cabin air pressure the most important thing you can do is save yourself.

Put your own oxygen mask on first before you try to save anyone else.

The same applies here.

We first need to save ourselves, as your marriage will never survive if YOU are broken.

Learn about relationships, pursuit and distance, and how you can be the best person you can possibly be.

It took me a long time to understand all this but TIME - my favorite GIFT is on our side.

Use your TIME wisely.

[petri]

Thank you Cadet. Being an impatient person this is the hardest part. But you people here know what you are talking about so I really don't have any option but to take all advice do the best with it. After all I think my journey has just begun.

[Sotto]

Some longer-time posters will remember Starsky, a vet who always gave spot on and golden advice IMHO.

Something he posted a number of times (and I always remembered it) was this:

The number one mistake that many LBS's (who have a chance at reconciliation) make is letting the WAS back too soon and too easy.

What he said (and I agree) is that many situations need to have travelled pretty far before a potentially sustainable reconciliation is really possible .

The LBS needs to have taken their own journey and gained more insight into themselves as a person, parent, partner - and grown. They need to understand how their own behaviour may have contributed to a marriage that broke down. They also need to learn how to live a more boundaried existence, understanding what does and doesn't work for them and being brave enough to ask for what they want and need.

They need to have experienced life beyond the marriage and have worked through their own initial desperation to save the marriage, and their possibly codependent ways. They need to know that this may go either way and they will be fine whichever way it does go.

The WAS also takes their journey and they will experience a natural and karmic unfolding of events based on their earlier choices. If they had an affair with someone, they may get to experience what a relationship is like with someone who was willing to date a married man or woman and who might be immature or broken. They get to see how their family feels about their choices, including their children. They get to experience how life actually is compared to how they thought it would be. This takes the time it takes and this can lead to what people call 'rock bottom.' When someone looks around and realises what they have truly lost. Not just in terms of family, ties and friends, but self-respect too.

Only at this point (or similar) does a WAS start to maturely reflect on what has happened and look at their part, face damage they have caused. Not from a 'me' perspective, but from the perspective of others. And they may offer a truly sincere and regretful apology for their part and express a genuine desire to reconcile.

At this point the LBS has grown to a point that they are willing to move slowly and have a degree of self-control and a full 'other' life too. They don't jump in and they are not all in for a good while.

From all that I have seen posted, early reconciliations and quick ones really may not be good news and can lead to a looping scenario, where people find themselves back here sadly, a few years on. Much better to not waste the pain now and learn and grow from present, difficult circumstances. This we never regret - I truly believe that. If you learn and grow, this becomes a 'win' situation for you - however things may unfold.

Xx

[Morbo]

THIS is a great thread with some great replies too.
I particularly liked Maika's, Sandi's and Sotto's insights.

Why didnt I find this forum sooner? bah