Sandi's Reflections - Part 2

[Zues126]

Sandi,

Just reading this list, I don't no any man that doesn't fall into any of these categories. My own parents have been happily married for 38 years. And I can see my own father in some of the things listed. From what I can tell our WS have unrealistic expectations. Don't get me wrong, I can see how some of these can be serious issues. But a lot of these WS leave their H for the reasons listed to end up with OM who are far worse. So why do these WS have this love and respect for OM?

I held off on posting for a few days because this was my reaction exactly. I think this serves well as some things for husbands to be aware of and strive for. Saying these are reasons why WW's lose respect for H's doesn't quite fit for me.

I'd say they are excuses for why a WW loses respect for her H. Each partner is going to have pain in their heart because reality doesn't live up to their inner desires, their fantasy, and their expectations. Being married is a full time job of grieving for the loss of what you wished was possible in this lifetime, and instead focusing on appreciation for what you have. It is about focusing on what you can do to be the best spouse to your partner you can be. And it is about forgiving their shortcomings.

If you do this daily, day after day, letting go of resentment, forgiving, appreciating, and serving your spouse, right around the time that you give up on the idea your spouse could ever meet any of your needs they do something that surprises you. Something that makes you realize how deeply they care. Something that blows you away. Something that makes you remember why you got married and why marriage is worth it.

So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has. This is not a failing of the H for failing to live up to standards that no man can meet. I'd say the same things regarding the selfish choices of walk away husbands. Expectations have gone through the roof and the result hasn't been that marriages have become better, it has been the revolving door of broken homes that come from people looking for the greener grass.

As for why they turn to other people, it isn't about quality. It is about fantasy and pleasure. When a WW abandons a marriage they are down. They have just decided to 'break the rules' by breaking their vows. So they find themselves outside of their faith and depressed, so they figure it's time to do whatever they think will bring them their happiness. Since they've always followed the rules before and they are breaking them now, it makes sense why they choose to do many things that are out of their normal character. OMs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Drugs and alcohol. Partying. Spending. Whatever they can do to change how they feel. Same with the MLC or WAHs. But no, quality in an affair partner is not on their list, they are in straight up pleasure seeking mode.

Again, I do think this list is valuable for men that are married. As long as you have a committed partner these are noble qualities to strive for, and this is where our focus should be as men (as opposed to harboring resentment for how our wives fall short on their lists). They are good things to consider when identifying 180s for those standing by their M during a family crisis. But unfortunately for most women these qualities have evolved from ideals to expectations to deal breakers.

[petri]

I agree with Zues here. We tend to miss our own shortcomings and easily point the finger at other ones. On the fantasy element I think SoMe has a big influence. People showing a little fragment of their life and suddenly their life seems to be perfect all of the time. At least that's what I saw in my W. Compairing our life to other peoples life in SoMe.

[sandi2]

I'd say they are excuses for why a WW loses respect for her H.

It is about focusing on what you can do to be the best spouse to your partner you can be. And it is about forgiving their shortcomings.

I am a little surprised by Your and Thread's reaction about most men having these behaviors. Whether this list seems to be legitimate reasons or flimsy excuses, they are nevertheless, what I have seen, read, and heard that destroy a W's respect.

I can't completely agree about the disrespect being on the wife. Yes, in many things we need to forgive and move forward instead of holding resentment. However, the behaviors on this list are those that continue, in spite of the W's pleas, forgiveness, etc. Some actions can be seen more serious than others, but each one can take a toll in destroying the respect of the wife, if the H refuses to correct it. I have seen several long suffering women who had mean husbands, and no matter how sweet and forgiving the W was, it had no bearing on his behavior.

I agree about the importance of forgiving shortcomings. However, I do not see the items on this list as "shortcomings". Except for maybe very few, they are the H's intentional, ongoing actions upon his W and/or children. Forgiveness does not change or fix a problem in the other spouse.

So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has.

Compare it to setting boundaries. I won't live in a MR where my H abuses me. If I state this boundary to my H and he continues to be abusive.....are you saying it is my fault, b/c I failed to do my part of forgiving and letting go of my expectations of living in a safe environment? What if he turns to criminal activity or places our family in danger? Is that my fault? If he refuses to work and provide for the family, is it b/c I did not appreciate him enough? I believe each spouse is responsible for their own actions.

So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has. This is not a failing of the H for failing to live up to standards that no man can meet.

First of all, there is nothing on that list that is unrealistic and that every man couldn't meet. Each item involves his will. If he couldn't help it, then his W would tend to be more forgiving. Perhaps you see it as unrealistic standards or expectations, but as a woman, I see nothing that requires supernatural abilities. And, I don't believe all men are guilty of these actions.

I wonder if you are seeing this as a case where the H does one of these acts carelessly and the W refuses to forgive him. If so, then I did not make myself clear. If the H tries to do better and his W will not forgive him, etc., then of course, that's a problem that leads to resentment. However, he should not be excused to mistreat her and say it is on her.

Again, I do think this list is valuable for men that are married. As long as you have a committed partner these are noble qualities to strive for, and this is where our focus should be as men (as opposed to harboring resentment for how our wives fall short on their lists). They are good things to consider when identifying 180s for those standing by their M during a family crisis. But unfortunately for most women these qualities have evolved from ideals to expectations to deal breakers.

BTW, I realized I had to forgive my H for the things I resented for so many years, and I chose to show him respect. I don't think the couple can go forward without forgiveness and change.

I appreciate your thoughts, and I hope more people will join in the conversation.

[TBSakaJ9]

I know for me my W was not happy with me becoming a slob, not taking care of the outside of the house, etc. Also sitting around the house watching TV. Those 2 components of loosing respect played a role in my sitch. My W did nag on me to change this but at the time I did not take her naggin seriously and it wasn't until a week before BD, were she really went off on me that I understood how serious she was. I remember making the statement to her that I didn't know how important this was to you and I am sorry.......her response was I guess it is.

So for me and my W, IMO, it comes down to bad communication. This is also stuff that I can easily fix now knowing how important it is to her. Maybe I will get the chance

[sandi2]

I wonder if men ever take their W's nagging seriously......b/c they joke about it, complain about it, ignore it, etc. Do they think it's just a component of the female and she can't help herself? And then when men come to the board, they cry b/c the W didn't tell him the problem in a way he could understand. Whatever, I agree it is bad communication.

If the W has brought it up once, then I would say to take it seriously. I mean, how many times do you think you need to tell someone before they begin to take you seriously?

[sandi2]

I agree with Zues here. We tend to miss our own shortcomings and easily point the finger at other ones. On the fantasy element I think SoMe has a big influence. People showing a little fragment of their life and suddenly their life seems to be perfect all of the time.

Maybe I'm the one missing the point here, but let me try to clarify that the list has nothing to do with a fantasy or her wanting him to be like some other guy. It is his own consistent bad behavior that causes her to lose respect for him before she ever becomes a wayward or a WAW.

[Vanilla]

Actually H could be replaced with W in the list. And some of the behaviours induce fear and who wants to live in fear?

Frankly it's about being an adult who takes responsibility for who they are. Makes a mistake and resolves it. Puts their spouse above all others, provides, loves and commits to their R above all else.

It's emotional maturity.

And looking after oneself physically and mentally, being fit for life.

For all your life.

Oh and great sex helps!

V

[petri]

Sandi: I do see myself on that list. I don't disagree on the fact the things on the list aren't valid. But could the ultimate reason be the fantasy that the OP would fulfill all their dreams? Of course there is the reason to start dreaming about something else. And your list is more about that I think. Just an opinion. Not trying to know better or anything...

[TBSakaJ9]

I wonder if men ever take their W's nagging seriously......b/c they joke about it, complain about it, ignore it, etc. Do they think it's just a component of the female and she can't help herself?

For me I was naive......getting D never crossed my mind because we had never talked about it. I just thought that all W's had complaints and this was just part of being married. OH boy did I learn! She tried to communicate to me the way she knew how but now I know that most women are not that direct.

That is why I am hopeful that my W will work through it.

Whatever, I agree it is bad communication

The funny thing is I thought my W and I communicated well with each other

If the W has brought it up once, then I would say to take it seriously. I mean, how many times do you think you need to tell someone before they begin to take you seriously?

Once is enough for me going forward . It won't happen again with this 1 or someone else in the future.

Naive I was but I was not a bad husband or father.

[Zues126]

First of all, there is nothing on that list that is unrealistic and that every man couldn't meet. Each item involves his will. If he couldn't help it, then his W would tend to be more forgiving. Perhaps you see it as unrealistic standards or expectations, but as a woman, I see nothing that requires supernatural abilities. And, I don't believe all men are guilty of these actions.

I appreciate the conversation Sandi.

I can't speak for all men, so I'll just speak for myself. Personally I know that I can't live up to that list of standards. Reading it felt as if I was looking at a job description and the "required experience" began listing degrees and prior titles that were well beyond me so I didn't bother sending in a resume.

Compare it to setting boundaries. I won't live in a MR where my H abuses me. If I state this boundary to my H and he continues to be abusive.....are you saying it is my fault, b/c I failed to do my part of forgiving and letting go of my expectations of living in a safe environment? What if he turns to criminal activity or places our family in danger? Is that my fault? If he refuses to work and provide for the family, is it b/c I did not appreciate him enough? I believe each spouse is responsible for their own actions.

I agree each person has to have personal boundaries they don't waiver on. I think we can all agree that physical abuse and infidelity are crossing those boundaries and are behaviors that can't be forgiven and accepted.

Then it just becomes a matter of how many deal breaker boundaries there are. If those boundaries help people stay out of harms way and protect themselves, great. If they lead to a string of failed relationships, disappointments, stories of abusive ex's, and frustration that they can't find the person they know is out there for them, at some point it begs the question of whether these boundaries are serving or hindering that person.

This thread is precious information and does speak to the heart of the matter of divorce though. When I entered my marriage I was naive and didn't know about this list of boundaries and requirements. I thought marriage was forever barring abuse and adultery so I felt shocked, betrayed, and heartbroken when my XW left me.

Since then I've come to understand I don't meet today's relationship standards. This has been one of the most important lessons I've learned from my experience and these forums. To the two women I've had long term relationships with I have been dumped as the abuser because I didn't meet expectations. From my perspective they are unrealistic. To me it stops mattering which is 'right or wrong', the moral is I know I'm not a good fit for a modern relationship. Knowing this I have chosen to remain single so I don't hurt myself or others trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I'm sure it's easy to say 'man up and become a better man so you fit everything on this list, it's not that hard'. I agree if a man is able to do that then that is outstanding. For those that can't it at least helps to be aware of this so we can act accordingly.