Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2

[Deckard]

rminer,

I think you not only need a plan for telling her you know, but figuring out your boundries, including financial boundries.

I pulled these from Starsky posts. The first is thinking about a boundry, and the second is enforing a boundry.

Think of it this way. I saved this post from another poster here named Jayne, who summed up boundaries just about the best and clearest way I've ever read:

Jayne, on “boundaries”:

Think about boundaries like this:

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.

If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.

The first time my then-wayward wife stayed out with "a group of friends" (and it was with a group, but OM was part of the group) she said she "wouldn't be home late," and texted me as I remember about 10:30 that night that she'd be out a little later, and ended up coming home at 11:15 or something.

The second time, she also said she wouldn't be home late, and came home past midnight. I then told her (and this was after I had exposed her affair, so she knew I knew) that "this isn't a hotel, if you're going to be out past midnight don't bother coming home. It's disrespectful to me, and disruptive to the kids to have you coming home that late."

The third time, it was 2am and I had shut all of the house lights off -- inside and out -- and armed the home security system. She got the message, and never did it again.


Starsky

[rminer]

I hadn't seen the first quote yet. That is helpful.

I had seen the second one.

I have started on boundries, mainly with the way she is talking to the family (kids and myself).

As far as making a plan to tell her, I still need to decide where I should start, meaning do I start with financial repercussions since she is a stay at home mom and has some of her own bills that I pay, or should I have her/me move out?

I've spoken to an atty, but have come up with a few more questions that I need answered, such as the affect of me vs. her moving out.

[rminer]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it has been an interesting week and a half.

My W and I had a text exchange two weeks ago today, and she started bringing up R stuff. She said a few things in the exchange and has both said and done a few things since that has me curious as to what is going on and what she is thinking.

It was a fairly long exchange, so I am going to give the highlights to keep it shorter.

As a recap:

Her vehicle was having issues and she was complaining about it. I had a place I was going to have it towed to that evening, but when she started complaining I told her she could drive it herself. I didn’t actually think she would, but she did and broke down when she was driving it there. This is after I tried the most common repair for the issue myself. I got an angry phone call and then some angry texts.

I started out strong, keeping her in “her place” not taking her cr@p, but then things started to go to the R. She said things like “I can’t do this anymore,” “You never hear what I am saying,” “I talk and you do whatever you want,” and “You’re in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important.” Typical things that a WW will say.
She went on to say that she was very hurt over the incident in the car, which I did not respond to and that “Sometimes I don’t even know who you are anymore.”

She then said that I went from not really paying attention to her to three weeks of being thoughtful and now just being mad at her all of the time (these three weeks she is referring to was before I found DB). She brought up that I said I wasn’t going to give up on her and was going to show her that I love her some way (again, before I got here).

She went on to say that “I’m terribly hurt and don’t think we can fix this marriage anymore. Seems like you give up and so do I. I won’t leave because of the kids, but I cannot do this forever.”

I stumbled a bit, as I said in my previous post, by telling her I understand she feels that way, telling her we both hurt, she does not communicate with me anymore, our conversations are restricted to business only and I do value her opinion. I also mentioned some things she had done that seemed to be directed at hurting me such as throwing away her birthday card. She gave me a surprise response to this and said that she didn’t throw the birthday card away, and that she “wouldn’t do that.” I finished the R part of the conversation by saying that our marriage can be saved if we are both willing to do it.

From there it was back to me being stronger after realizing what I was doing.

The recurring theme in her messages since this began is basically what I posted above, but she always seems to bring up me not hearing her, not doing things with her and the three weeks I gave her a ton of attention.


Now the interesting part. At least to me.


The next day, it was a typical day between us – minimal talking, business only. Because her vehicle was in the shop, she drove me to work that day and Saturday so she could go grocery shopping and get the kids where they needed to be. When she picked me up, she was in a good mood, singing to the radio when I got in. Conversation was minimal the rest of the day though. Saturday morning on the way to work, there was almost nothing said – just typical pleasantries. When she picked me up Saturday evening it was a different story.

When I got in the car, she immediately asked how my day was; I didn’t give a long reply and asked the same of her. The rest of the way home, she talked to me like normal. We had a pleasant conversation about a lot of things, but nothing personal. It was limited to traffic, kids, weather, how her friend needs to divorce her husband (ironically, for treating her the same way my W is treating me, minus the A). At one point she said “I need to steal your car tonight to go to “restaurant” with “friend’s name.” I gave her the “seriously?” look. In my mind I had figured out why she was being so nice. The rest of the ride she kept talking like we used to.

When we got home, she was still talking and in a good mood. When W went in the bedroom, D14 asked me what was up with W. I said she’s been really nice since she picked me up. D14 responded “she wants your car,” so I wasn’t the only one thinking it. W asked again, and I was expecting a battle. I told her “no” because I had promised D14 and S8 that I would take them to a movie that night. She said “ok, could you drop me off then and ‘friend’s name’ will give me a ride home.” I said that that didn’t work for me. A few minutes later, she said her friend was picking her up, so not to worry about it and was not mad at all. I watched out the window when she left, and it was her friend, not the OM.

The next day I was off and was putting on my clothes to work outside when my W offered to make me breakfast. I said “that would be nice” and thanked her. After I ate, I thanked her again. The rest of the day was the same way. She was nice, joking and talkative. This continued for the rest of the week. She talked, joked, made sure she made enough food for everyone for dinner and started paying more attention to S8 and D14. We never talked about “us” or alone, but she was almost like her old self. She text me every day, which is something she hadn’t been doing. Every text was only business though, and I continued to wait to acknowledge them and gave short replies. The first night of the event we went to where the OM was there, we had a lot of snow so the roads were bad. She asked me to be careful like she still cared about my safety.

Saturday rolled around and she was fine until midafternoon. This is when she announced that she was going out with “friend’s name” again. Because of the vehicle repair and a few unexpected expenses, funds were very, very low. I asked how she was planning on paying for it. “Money” was the response. I told her that wasn’t a good enough answer and she said that she had some cash. I then said that going out with almost no money in the bank and not enough food in the house for the next week was not a good idea. I also told her the kids should be the priority. She came back with “Oh, that’s right, I don’t do anything for the kids. I was up until 3am getting things ready for the event today while you were sleeping.” I simply replied “I didn’t say you don’t do anything for the kids, but going out when there is no money for food is not fair to the kids.” That was the end of the conversation. She did not talk to me the rest of the day, and, of course went out anyway.

The next day, Sunday, she was a little grumpy in the morning, but as the day went on she got back to being like she was the week before. She continued being nice, talking and making sure there was enough food makde the next three days. She even served me birthday cake twice. She hasn’t done anything like that since November.

One of the days, I can't remember which, my W, D14, D18 and S8 were in the kitchen talking and one of the kids said that they loved snow, just not the cold. My W looks at me and says "I hate the cold too. When are you going to get me out of this God forsaken state?" I answered "I always though that would happen when our parents are gone." She came back with "I only see my mother once a year as it is. I can do that from anywhere I live, so we can go right now."

Then came Valentine’s Day. I was off, so I saw her when she woke up on the couch. She was playing on her phone and I said “good morning.” She didn’t reply. Later, I said something to her again. No response. I noticed she had headphones in, so I thought maybe she hadn’t heard me earlier, so I waived at her to get her attention. She took out the headphone and I asked if S8 still had Karate today. She was short and not very nice with her response and said “if he wants to go.” She was the same way the rest of the day and right back to the way she was two weeks ago. We did not acknowledge that it was Valentine’s Day with each other. In full disclosure, I did come and go from home a few times to run errands and I did not tell her I was leaving or where I was going.

This morning she sends a text “Thanks for fixing the sink. Please don’t pretend like you want to work on anything with me though. You obviously can’t stand to even be around me.”


A couple of questions on this.


Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.


She said a few things throughout the week that indicated she still had feelings. When she said that she didn’t throw away her birthday card, she also said that she WOULDN’T do that. Why wouldn’t she if we are through.


Why would she be thinking of the future with me by moving to another state? Is this just idle talk or a hint?


She told me to be careful driving. She hasn’t shown ANY concern for my health or safety since this all began. Why the momentary change of heart?


Almost two weeks of niceness and back to venom? Is she mad that I skipped Valentine’s Day? It has never been a major thing for us – ever. Usually just exchange cards.


During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?


Is this all part of the “normal” process?


I know that she is not the woman I M. Not even close. I can’t comprehend how she could change so much, but I am taking your word for it. I’m trying to understand it, but this is unlike anything I have ever seen.


Accuray, I know you have answered some of these questions in my previous post and I thank you. I am not discounting your answers in any way. Please keep answering my posts with your views as I do value them.


I would, however, like sandi’s views on this as well since she once walked the path my W is.

[rminer]

During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?

Let me rephrase this. I know she probably didn't want to talk, but was she reaching out in any way? So much of what she said and did seemed genuine. I didn't ignore her, but I did keep things polite and let her do most of the talking.

Nothing negative, no arguments other than the night she went out and I called her out. We didn't argue, I just made my point about it.

The way she turned back on Valentine's day has me wondering.

[LH19]

This morning she sends a text “Thanks for fixing the sink. Please don’t pretend like you want to work on anything with me though. You obviously can’t stand to even be around me.”

This is her gas lighting you trying to make you feel like the bad person.

A couple of questions on this.


Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.
Probably a little of all the above accept her wading back in. This will not happen while the A is going on.

She said a few things throughout the week that indicated she still had feelings. When she said that she didn’t throw away her birthday card, she also said that she WOULDN’T do that. Why wouldn’t she if we are through.
Of course she has feelings for you. You are the father of her children. Don't mistake that for wanting to work on the marriage.

Why would she be thinking of the future with me by moving to another state? Is this just idle talk or a hint?
Idle talk.

She told me to be careful driving. She hasn’t shown ANY concern for my health or safety since this all began. Why the momentary change of heart?
Probably just force of habit. Slip up maybe.

Almost two weeks of niceness and back to venom? Is she mad that I skipped Valentine’s Day? It has never been a major thing for us – ever. Usually just exchange cards.
Your'e mind reading which is pointless at this juncture.

During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?
Not sure what you mean. A sexual advance?

Is this all part of the “normal” process?
Nothing normal about this process at all.

I know that she is not the woman I M. Not even close. I can’t comprehend how she could change so much, but I am taking your word for it. I’m trying to understand it, but this is unlike anything I have ever seen.


Accuray, I know you have answered some of these questions in my previous post and I thank you. I am not discounting your answers in any way. Please keep answering my posts with your views as I do value them.


I would, however, like sandi’s views on this as well since she once walked the path my W is.

R,

There was a poster recently on here name Hermes. (check out his thread). His W was in an open A that he new about. He tried to nice his way back into the relationship, cleaned the house, bought her gifts, planned her business trips, ran her baths etc. Needless to say it did not end well for him. One of his last couple posts he wrote about his number one regret was that he didn't kick her cheating ass out of the house the minute he found out about the A.

[rminer]

During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?

Not sure what you mean. A sexual advance?

No, not sexual. Going back to the way I was during the three weeks I was tripping over myself to try to win her back or make some other grand gesture to show her I want her back.

There was a poster recently on here name Hermes. (check out his thread). His W was in an open A that he new about. He tried to nice his way back into the relationship, cleaned the house, bought her gifts, planned her business trips, ran her baths etc. Needless to say it did not end well for him. One of his last couple posts he wrote about his number one regret was that he didn't kick her cheating ass out of the house the minute he found out about the A.

Just to be clear, I did not fix the sink because she asked me to, which she didn't. I fixed it because I used it and it was backed up. All I did was snake the drain and it was working again. A whole five minute process.

Right now I'm sticking to the 37 rules. I'm not doing "H" things for her unless absolutely necessary and I am setting boundaries, at least personal ones and for the kids.

I know you keep saying I should kick her out. While I would love to make that strong of a statement, there are other things at play that I need to get answers to from an atty. Until that happens, I won't be kicking her out.

[LH19]

R,

I am cool with you checking with an attorney first.

What I am trying to do is to get you to not waste any mental energy with what she is saying or doing.

[sandi2]

Are you giving off cold and mad vibes toward her? When we say don't try to nice her back, detach, etc...........we don't mean you are suppose to be cold and give off angry vibrations. As far as she knows, you know nothing about her having an A with OM.......so, if you are coming off as cold/mad at her, then you are just looking like a jerk. Detaching is not giving off these type of vibes.

A wayward wife is very much like a wayward child. If there are no enforced boundaries, no consequences, etc........then her actions can lead to a lifestyle of pain and destruction.
It is not easy for her H and family members. She is can be a manipulator by using only two cards. She will accuse the H of trying to control her or have his own way about everything........or she will lay a guilt trip on him. So, staying balanced while he attempts to lead in the family/home and steer his MR back to a healthy place......is no easy task.

I have seen a lot of newcomer H's who simply did not know how to show strength, detaching, standing up to his W, etc., without acting cold/mad/sullen. They did not know how to separate the picture of detaching from cold/angry. If this is the case with you, then she will not see your strength. All she will see is the cold/mad/sullen behavior. Make sense? Just as you cannot nice her back into being the old W you want, neither can you act punitive, mean, cold, sullen, etc., and expect her to fall into your arms.

After reading your recent post about the car conversation, and seeing some of your comments, I am seeing something surface that I either missed, or it has not previously come up in your posts.

Her vehicle was having issues and she was complaining about it. I had a place I was going to have it towed to that evening, but when she started complaining I told her she could drive it herself. I didn’t actually think she would, but she did and broke down when she was driving it there.

So, I'll start here with some questions. How long had she complained about her car before you tried to repair it? In all honesty, was not having it fixed sooner some attempt to keep her from meeting up with OM? Did you actually tell her your plans to have it towed that evening? I am not finding fault here, but trying to get clarification.

I started out strong, keeping her in “her place” not taking her cr@p, but then things started to go to the R. She said things like “I can’t do this anymore,” “You never hear what I am saying,” “I talk and you do whatever you want,” and “You’re in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important.” Typical things that a WW will say.
She went on to say that she was very hurt over the incident in the car, which I did not respond to and that “Sometimes I don’t even know who you are anymore.”

Okay, let's look at this and see if we can determine how much is true and what is b.s. guilt card playing tactics. First, she associated the situation of you not getting her car fixed (in whatever she felt was a reasonable frame of time) with past experiences with you. Now, being a man, you may only focus on the part of that sentence about not getting the car fixed. I am asking you to take your focus off the car for a moment and hear what I hear her saying. "You never hear what I am saying"......is your W emotionally relating to past incidents and connecting them to the current one. I guarantee every woman on this board will agree with me. She is very frustrated at a continual issue that has not ended. That being that you don't listen with your heart. You may vaguely hear her words......but, apparently, she feels you do not take them seriously. "I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes. "You're in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important", sounds as if she has not felt very valued when it came to important decisions. Bottom line is that only you know if you have given her cause to feel devalued. If you have been guilty of these accusations in the past, then I can see how it would breed a lot of resentment in her heart. I think you need to do some deep self-evaluation.

Frankly, I can't help but think what she said is true to some degree. I am saying this really had very little to do with the car. It goes deeper. I don't think this issue of you never listening to her would have risen to the surface, if it had not been brewing for a long time. IMHO, it's these type of incidents that cause men to shake their heads at women, b/c he sees her making a huge deal out of having a car fixed. (Remember me talking about unresolved issues causing resentment that is pushed down into her heart). The deal with the car not being fixed sooner, was the straw that broke the camel's back. Make sense?

Now, if I'm wrong and everything she said was nothing more than fabrication, then mark it off as her playing the guilt card on you. Maybe it's a little of both, you think? At any rate, do some soul searching, b/c too many H's see this type of "cr@p" from their W as nagging. Based on what they've heard passed down through other men......this is what W's do. They nag. So, the H shruggs if off, and it turns into resentment and is bedded in her heart. Whenever something else comes up to trigger these resentful feelings, she will react in the same manner. She doesn't see him changing, and he writes it down to being something much farther from the truth.

She then said that I went from not really paying attention to her to three weeks of being thoughtful and now just being mad at her all of the time (these three weeks she is referring to was before I found DB). She brought up that I said I wasn’t going to give up on her and was going to show her that I love her some way (again, before I got here).

Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her? Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention? I'm not saying to start doing it again, at least not right now. I am looking at something I have not seen in your story, until now.

She went on to say that “I’m terribly hurt and don’t think we can fix this marriage anymore. Seems like you give up and so do I. I won’t leave because of the kids, but I cannot do this forever.”

How did you respond when she mentioned how you went from paying her attention to being mad at her all the time? To me, it sounds as the next quote was said b/c she wasn't getting much recognition from you......at least, verbally.

The recurring theme in her messages since this began is basically what I posted above, but she always seems to bring up me not hearing her, not doing things with her and the three weeks I gave her a ton of attention.

Then I tend to believe this is something she has needed for a long time. And I am not saying it is definitely the reason she is in an A, but can you understand how it could leave her vulnerable to another man's attention?

I think you attempted to validate her feelings, but it failed. It failed b/c even I can see through it. You did not "understand" her feelings. If you understood you would stop repeating the same offenses that hurt them. It is actually better to not say anything, than to tell a woman you know how she feels. And then......you added how both of you were hurt. That's true, but it was bad timing. She's trying to express her hurt and frustration at the moment, and trying to tell you what is causing it.......and guess what? You are not listening!! At least, not with your heart.

I was going to comment on several of the next paragraphs in your post, but I don't really see anything more than tit-for-tat behavior. From her point of view, you probably looked just as bad as she looked from your view point.

Why did she start being nice to me and the kids? Was it something I said? Guilt? Lure me back in? Insanity? I initially thought that maybe she thought about what I said and decided to wade back in, but now I’m not so sure.

Well, from what you reported, I don't think it had anything to do with you. And, I really don't think it was guilt. Having guilt requires feeling a certain amount of remorse......and she has not reached that point yet.......if she's having an A. I believe I can safely say she was not trying to "lure you back in". Insanity? Who knows. The things you pointed out, such as to how many times she took you birthday cake.....to saying she would never throw away a card from you.......to telling you to be careful driving, is a man over-focused on the small stuff. I mean, where I live, telling someone to be careful is just another way of saying good-bye. You took its meaning way too seriously. It's more habit than anything else, so don't waste energy pondering over little things like that.

It is more important for you to stop repeating the things you've done to cause so much resentment. For instance, the fact she has felt forced to live in a place she hates. I have lived in a lot of different places. While I loved some, and a few I hated. Environment, weather, culture differences, etc., plays a big factor with some people. The way your W sees you refusing to move away from the cold weather state, is you being stubborn, maybe even a little selfish and not wanting to do something she feels is important to her overall well being and happiness. Now, how much difference it would actually make in her, IDK. But these factors have caused significant resentment for a long time, and it apparently had no affect in your decision to stay in the place she hates to live. What if it was reversed and you had to live wherever she decided?

During this time was she trying to tell me she wanted to talk and I missed it? She never once said she did, and all of our conversations were in front of and/or involved the kids. We never got close to the R subject in that time and never talked about anything personal. We were never alone at any time. Was she waiting for me to make a move?

I suggest you stop thinking about talking, and just practice listening. If you are missing anything, it's b/c you are not really hearing her. But no, I don't think she was mysteriously trying to get you to make a move.

[rminer]

Don't take any of this reply as a defense of myself, only explanation in hopes of getting to the root of the issues.

After reading your views I can see how she could feel the way you describe on many of your points.  Both of us are guilty of some of the things you point out.  I say "both" because I have felt the same way many times and I think they have played in to some of my actions/reactions toward her as well, but we are focusing on my actions atm, so...

Are you giving off cold and mad vibes toward her?

No. Not at all.  I'm doing as the 37 rules say.  Not initiating much conversation, but not ignoring her either.  When she speaks to me, I'm polite and to the point.  I try to act happy at all times, but not overly happy, and I am careful not to act mad at her. I just don't talk as much as I used to.  I do greet her in the mornings when I see her and always say goodnight, although it is not necessarily directed at her alone since D14 is usually in the living room with her.  I'll ask how she is as well.  I'm just not going overboard.  No ILY, hugs, kisses at all.   Only the occasional text when necessary and I reply to hers as time permits. Sometimes immediately, but more often delayed.  Responses are kept brief and on topic.  This is all very different than I used to be.


There is not much opportunity for conversation as she does not initiate much either.  Pretty much only about the kids and business.  

How long had she complained about her car before you tried to repair it? In all honesty, was not having it fixed sooner some attempt to keep her from meeting up with OM? Did you actually tell her your plans to have it towed that evening?

She had been complaining since last summer.  The problem is that I could not get the vehicle to duplicate the issue and her description of what was happening was so vague it could have been anything.  I explained this to her and probed for more information,  but she could never give enough information to narrow it down.   I had the vehicle scanned and no error codes showed.  I do understand that she doesn't see it this way though.


No, it had nothing to do with the OM.


No, I didn't tell her I was having it towed.  I never would have dreamed she would have attempted to drive it there.  Taking care of anything outside of the house, including cars has always my responsibility.  She was throwing another tantrum, so I told her she could take it herself to set a boundary.

You never hear what I am saying"......is your W emotionally relating to past incidents and connecting them to the current one.

This is definitely possible.  I can't come up with a specific example of me doing this ATM, but I am sure it has happened. 

"I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes.

Are you saying this in relation to the "You never hear what I am saying" statement or that I'm making decisions without her?  If it is the former, I can see the relation.  If it is the latter, it is simply not true. I will get to that below.


As far as being a jerk or bully, I'm not.  Far from it.  As you have said (as well as my kids), I tend to give in way too easily to her.  Unless, of course, she is referring to me after I came here.  I don't give in much any more for the most part and I am firmly setting boundaries.


I do understand what you are getting at though.

"You're in control of everything and I feel like I have no voice in anything important", sounds as if she has not felt very valued when it came to important decisions.

She has a voice in every decision of any consequence.  If it affects the both of us or the family, she is involved in the decision and we usually go with what she wants.  

The only thing I'm "in control of" is the finances, and that is only to a point. She has free reign to spend within the budget, which is based on getting bills paid and food in the refrigerator first.  She knows this.  


She has always been a spender and not a saver, and since we do not have much extra money, there are things she wants which we can't afford.  I do put my foot down when it comes to being frivolous with money, insisting that bills are paid before extras are bought.

Frankly, I can't help but think what she said is true to some degree. I am saying this really had very little to do with the car. It goes deeper...     ...Make sense?

Yes, you are probably right, and it does.

Maybe it's a little of both, you think?

Definitely possible.

Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her?

When I stopped pursing just over a month ago, she didn't seem to notice, at least outwardly towards me.  I watched very carefully for any reaction from her, even the smallest, and I saw nothing.  Since you asked the question, when we were in the car alone today, I asked D14 since my W talks to her a lot.


I asked exactly like this:  "Think back a month ago when I stopped showering your mother with attention.  What would you say her reaction was?"


D14's answer was "That's easy. She was mad.  Especially when you stopped telling her goodnight. She said she knew you weren't going to keep texting her too.  She's made a few comments about that."


Just for clarification, my morning routine included giving my wife a kiss and saying ILY before I went to work, even when she was still sleeping.   At night I would do the same to all of the kids and my W.  Now it is just a general "goodnight" to everyone in the room.  No one,  including my W gets a kiss, individual ILY or "goodnight" unless they are in a different room.

Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention?

It depended on what I was doing.  She acted as though she was tolerating the hugs and would not hug back.  


Kisses she avoided and seemed annoyed with, except when I started kissing het neck. She giggled when I did that.  No, she is not ticklish.


With both of the above, she would have a smile on her face, but it wasn't a normal smile. It is hard to describe.  It was like she was taking pleasure in my groveling.


ILYs were dismissed. "Sure you do,"  "So you say" and silence were the most common responses.


When I did things around the house,  she didn't mention them.   When I offered to stop at the store while I was out, she said "Thank you."  When I bought her flowers and said that I saw one of her favorite flowers in the bouquet which reminded of me of her, she seemed appreciative.


Text messages from me just to say "hi" or see how she was doing were met with one or two word answers, if answered.

How did you respond when she mentioned how you went from paying her attention to being mad at her all the time?

I told her that I wasn't mad at her and never was.

I was going to say that when I was doing those things she just rejected me or something to that effect, but I remembered you scolding me last time I answered it that way so I didn't. I didn't have a better answer, so I left it alone.


When someone doesn't talk much or simply wants peace and quiet, no matter who they are, she assumes they are mad at her.   Sometimes she forgets that people don't always want to talk.  An example is me in the mornings - I do not want to talk. I leave the radio off when I'm driving to work because I don't want the noise. It took her years to figure this out amd realize I wasnt mad or in a bad mood. I just wanted a little quiet time before I started my day.

Then I tend to believe this is something she has needed for a long time. And I am not saying it is definitely the reason she is in an A, but can you understand how it could leave her vulnerable to another man's attention?

Yes, I can.

that point yet.......if she's having an A.

Are you thinking there is a possibility she's not having an A?  There is every indication that she is, but I would love to be wrong on this.

For instance, the fact she has felt forced to live in a place she hates. I have lived in a lot of different places. While I loved some, and a few I hated. Environment, weather, culture differences, etc., plays a big factor with some people. The way your W sees you refusing to move away from the cold weather state, is you being stubborn, maybe  maybe even a little selfish and not wanting to do something she feels is important to her overall well being and happiness.  Now, how much difference it would actually make in her, IDK. But these factors have caused significant resentment for a long time, and it apparently had no affect in your decision to stay in the place she hates to live. What if it was reversed and you had to live wherever she decided?

We live where we grew up and she hasn't always hated it.  The only time she hates it is in the winter. 


We have talked about it for many years as something we would do someday.  In our discussions we have always agreed it would be best to stay here until our parents are gone since we both have very small families and we felt it was important for our kids to know their grandparents.  She has also said on many occasions that she is the only one her mother has, so she couldn't leave her behind.


Living here is by mutual agreement and choice, not force and she knows that.  I only brought it up because she was talking about future plans while she is telling me she doesn't think the marriage can be saved.


Now, if moving would fix our marriage it would be an option to consider, but I don't think that would be the case.

I suggest you stop thinking about talking, and just practice listening. If you are missing anything, it's b/c you are not really hearing her. But no, I don't think she was mysteriously trying to get you to make a move.

I'm not going to lie, I think about "the talk" a lot and how it might go, but I am not actively pursuing it. 


I wish we could edit posts because that was not what I actually wanted to ask.   I posted again to change what I was asking to was she reaching out in any way to try to work on things, or at least say she was willing to.  She went from cold to very nice back to cold. 


The timing of nice after the text exchange and back to cold on Valentine's Day seemed like each event may have influenced the changes she had.   The week and a half of nice seemingly out of nowhere confuses me, so I guess I was just looking for a reason behind it.

[rminer]

Thank you, sandi.

This is exactly the type of feedback I need.

You are appreciated more than you know!