Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2

[sandi2]

I wrote a post yesterday that pretty lengthly, and somehow mangaged to lose it. So, this will be shorter

No, I didn't tell her I was having it towed.  I never would have dreamed she would have attempted to drive it there.  Taking care of anything outside of the house, including cars has always my responsibility.  She was throwing another tantrum, so I told her she could take it herself to set a boundary.

I'm not sure how you set this as a boundary. Have you ever mentioned it to her? An example of having a boundary of not tolerating tantrums would be, "W, I feel disrespected when you throw a fit. I will no longer tolerate you throwing tantrums with me. If you engage in an tantrum, then you will be left to your own devices". If she continues, then you would disconnect the call, and she could get the car there the best way she could. If she has no clue about you having a boundary against her tantrums......how will she learn to stop throwing them? Boundaries require that you are steadfast. You can't cave one time and be firm the next.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
"I talk and you do whatever you want to do", is her saying that she feels her views are not considered, appreciated, or respected. By ""doing whatever you want", sounds as if you look like a jerk or bully in her eyes.

Are you saying this in relation to the "You never hear what I am saying" statement or that I'm making decisions without her?  If it is the former, I can see the relation. 

Yes, that's what I meant.

Are you thinking there is a possibility she's not having an A?  There is every indication that she is, but I would love to be wrong on this

.

There is a possibility, but I suspect she is in an EA, at least. What we need to do is figure out where to go from this point.

I see three options:

1. You forget about the EA/OM and act as if you have had an awakening. You focus on becoming a better man, H, and father.
2. You confront her about the EA/OM and lay down a boundary that you won't stay in a MR with three people.
3. You do nothing, and see how it turns out.

Whatever you choose, it will be very challenging, b/c both of you are unhappy and her behavior didn't start overnight.

[rminer]

What we need to do is figure out where to go from this point.

Yes, I agree that this is needed. What I am doing does not seem to be working.

I see three options:

1. You forget about the EA/OM and act as if you have had an awakening. You focus on becoming a better man, H, and father.
2. You confront her about the EA/OM and lay down a boundary that you won't stay in a MR with three people.
3. You do nothing, and see how it turns out.

Only the first two are options to me, but from what you and Acc are telling me, Option two probably won't end well.

I am going to step back and try to look at this a little differently so maybe I can get this figured out.

In the meantime, could you please tell me what you think of the two questions you asked two posts ago? You asked them for a reason that seemed important to me. Depending on your response, it might be a clue as to which way I need to go. I have my own thoughts on them, but your viewpoint would be welcomed.

They were:

Could you tell if she appeared let down when you stopped doing special things for her?

and

Refresh my mind, how did she respond during that time you were showering her with attention?

I appreciate the help.

[sandi2]

In the meantime, could you please tell me what you think of the two questions you asked two posts ago? You asked them for a reason that seemed important to me. Depending on your response, it might be a clue as to which way I need to go. I have my own thoughts on them, but your viewpoint would be welcomed.

This was a little confusing for you wanting to know my response on my questions, so I don't know if I will give the answers you are seeking. The reason behind those two questions was me trying to decide if it was a case that could be resolved with you simply showing your W more appreciation and attention. That's why I wanted to know how she responded during the time you were taking her flowers and helping around the house more, and then how she acted once you stopped doing those things.

From what I gathered by your answers, the only thing she responded half way positive was when you bought her flowers. Otherwise, I couldn't see much difference in her behavior during the time you showered her with attention.....and when you ended it.
Of course, all I have is what you tell us.

You might say that I was trying to give her the benefit of doubt. However, I have little doubt she has the mindset of a WW. She has carried around resentment for a long time. It is very easy for that condition to slide into disrespect.

Again, I'll use the car, b/c that's about the only thing I have currently to demonstrate what I mean. Most of us W's do depend upon our H's to be responsible for maintaining the upkeep of the vehicles. If we detect a strange sound of feel when driving the car, we tell our H's, trusting.......and, yes, expecting him to have it checked out. If it is something he can fix.......great. If he has to take it in to a shop......fine. We just want to have a vehicle that is safe to drive when we need to use it. If the H drags his feet about checking it out, his W could feel a little devalued by his lack of concern for her safety. If he should make the mistake of telling her he found nothing wrong and it must be all in her head........then she's going to feel anger. You said she started complaining last summer, which means it has been several months. I'm just guessing that she felt that her safety must be very low on your priority list, or that you were trying to control her from going out. However, I believe you said you did have it scanned and the mechanic saw no problem. So, you were not totally to blame that the car broke down. . The thing is, she has carried that resentment in her heart for many months .......just about the car. I can nearly feel her fury when the car broke down in route! I don't know how much or how little you explained about having the car checked out. But the problem was that she still had no means to go whenever she wanted. She just wanted a reliable vehicle, and she was fed up waiting on her H, b/c she was seeing the results she wanted. Like I said, this is just one tiny example of how one resentment can be blown out of proportion, and it can quickly turn into disrespect. One resentment builds onto another one. When she has a bed of resentments growing, it's not hard for one little thing to set her off. Her life becomes consumed with resentment toward her H, and until she can forgive him and start working through these unresolved issues, it will be very difficult for him to please her.

So, when the H is ready to turn out the lights at bedtime and make a little nookie.......he's probably going to see nothing but her cold back facing him. Why? B/c she is ticked about something. In this case, it was the car. And if it has been months since the incident, and she is still "tolerating" a kiss/hug from her H..........it's b/c the car incident has been added to her long, long list of grievances against her H. You see, she doesn't really resolve the bad feelings surrounding the entire vehicle situation. She simply pushes it down further in her heart.

Every single woman on the planet may not do this to the same degree. And, it may take much greater or more serious issues to make her feel this anger toward her H. But I will go out on a limb by saying most women have this tendency to push unresolved issues down in their hearts. Now, I will use myself for an example. If I can talk about the problem and express my feelings.....and if my H will communicate with me, then it prevents a lot of stuff being pushed down in my heart. But if he tells me he doesn't want to hear it anymore, or he refuses to acknowledge my feelings.......then it's going to make matters much worse. What am I saying? I am saying I want my feelings validated. The anger, frustration, or hurt will be compounded b/c he has stopped me from talking about what bothers me. That particular problem that upsets me, has been left unresolved, as far as my feelings are concerned. The car may be currently running, but I still have this mess of feelings I am left with to deal. My H would see it like, "The car (the problem) has been fixed, so enough talking about it". But I don't care, b/c it hasn't fixed how it made me feel. Sounds pretty pathetic, doesn't it?

Anyway, if it were not for an A/OM, I think a good pro-marriage counselor might be able to help both of you in learning how to communicate better and how to resolve issues before they get to the point she is screaming and acting crazy. Just learning the differences in how men and women think, can make a huge improvement in a MR.

When the WW has reached the point of acting out her rebellion, like engaging in an affair, then the M is at risk. Any type of an affair needs to be taken deathly serious, b/c it means your MR has died. It means you have already lost her. It means you will not be able to get her back as easily as you got her the first time. B/c this time, she is wayward, and her mindset goes against all logic. That is the first thing the H has to learn and accept. Her thinking is not logical.

So, with all this I've said........I think you need to have a plan of action. By that, I mean a plan of how to deal with your WW. You said option 3 was out. Okay, so you have to choose between the other two. If you choose option 1, then you must stop snooping. If you choose option 2, then I suggest you get enough intell to back up your suspicions (if you are not completely certain). I don't think it is healthy to fall into a habit of snooping or spying, based on the results of what others have written. Once you see or hear it, it's hard to erase from your memory. Plus, some people forget the plan they are suppose to be working ......and all they focus on is snooping. Their life becomes consumed with the activity between their W and OM.

If you go with option 2, you will need to be mentally prepared to get a separation and/or a divorce. She will either deny an affair, tell you it's all in your head, or that they are just friends...........or she'll deny an affair and then proceed to tell you she wants out of the M. As previously discussed, confrontation reveals that you are aware of the affair. You risk her taking the affair deeper unground. Unfortunately, there are apps available that support cheaters. It makes it very difficult to prove an A, if that's what the H is trying to do. For many men, it is important to them that their WW admits to having an A. Don't expect it. It is extremely rare to get admission, even if the H has solid proof. Btw, he should never tell her his source of intell. She can guess till the cows come home, but he is to never....ever tell her how he knows.

Let me comment about boundaries here. If you choose to confront her about an affair, and you tell her you will not stay in an open M (or a M of three, or however you state it), you will have to back up your words when she doesn't end the affair. She will test it. Stating a boundary to your WW is only words. Remember, she does not respect you, and she won't believe you'll follow through with what you say. Enforcing a boundary is when you put action to your words. So, think carefully before you make any grand pronouncements. Several newcomers have rushed into confronting their WW about an A, and would tell her his boundary of no open M. But they mistakenly believed that once she heard he would not stay in an open M, it would automatically end the A. I want you to clearly understand that confronting her and laying a boundary is not an automatic end to the affair. If anything, you give away your hand, and you are forced into a tough love plan of action.......that has no let up for a long time,if ever. So, please.......think very carefully before you decide. And if you decide to take that route, then you will need to sit down and put together a plan of action.

If you confront her, there are at least three things you should require from her, in order for her to remain in the M: She will have no further contact of any type with the OM, for life. She is committed to do whatever it takes to save the M. She will cooperate in a transparency plan that you choose. I'm sure you can already detect some problems in those three things. But if you confront her, you either have to get her agreement to these three requirements, or else plan to separate. And, she will need to be told she has the choice to end the M or agree to these three stipulations. Otherwise, you'll leave the confrontation not knowing where you stand. You have to be strong and don't leave the confrontation moment without her giving an answer. If she says she'll have to think about it........then that's the wrong answer. It means she doesn't want to save the M, she only wants time to figure out how to continue the A and keep one foot in the M. You see, she benefits both ways. She doesn't want you for her H, but she wants the benefits she gets by being legally M to you.

At this time, I won't get into what all the transparency plan covers. The last thing a WW in an affair wants to do is to be transparent with her H. She doesn't want him seeing her private messages, knowing about her activities, etc. But if the MR ever heals and has trust again, it needs to be a requirement, IMHO.

Don't know if this was what you were looking for, but if not.....break it down and simplify for me.

[CW2017]

I can only echo what Sandi's (ever wonderful) advice is pointing to.

[quote]
So, with all this I've said........I think you need to have a plan of action. By that, I mean a plan of how to deal with your WW. You said option 3 was out. Okay, so you have to choose between the other two. If you choose option 1, then you must stop snooping. If you choose option 2, then I suggest you get enough intell to back up your suspicions (if you are not completely certain). I don't think it is healthy to fall into a habit of snooping or spying, based on the results of what others have written. Once you see or hear it, it's hard to erase from your memory. Plus, some people forget the plan they are suppose to be working ......and all they focus on is snooping. Their life becomes consumed with the activity between their W and OM.

Yep, been there, got the t-shirt!

If all goes to plan with your sitch, whatever plan you go with will crystallise over time. Without dwelling on my own sitch, 8 months after a major confrontation (with no willingness on her part to leave her job, a degree of "owning", extensive MC but some sort of contact continuing afterwards which I hadn't realised) I no longer snoop, am in a relatively good place (thanks to some fantastic IC) but am ready for the nuclear option if it comes to it (and she knows this will happen). I have protected others up until now but the mental health has to come to the forefront at some point (the IC had a marvellous analogy of cabin pressure dropping, you decide to put the air masks on your family before yourself but unfortunately you don't get a chance because you're dead!).

the Best of British (as we say)!

[LH19]

R,

It’s PEW1974. Read his story.

[Accuray]

rminer,

I'll just chime in that I think you're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. She is unhappy in the marriage and on some level wants to leave it. At the same time, she doesn't want to be the bad guy and be responsible for breaking up the family, so she's looking for any excuse to pin that responsibility on you. If you're the bad guy she doesn't need to be.

Therefore, when you do nice things for her, she likes that you're addressed past complaints, but at the same time she resents that you're not playing your role as the bad guy.

If you don't play to her historic complaints, then she resents you for your ongoing shortcomings (in her eyes) but appreciates that you're validating her decision to leave.

See the trap there? You can't win.

Unfortunately there's not a path forward that doesn't suck. That's not an easy thing to accept. It took me a couple months to accept the fact that there wasn't a "win" hidden somewhere and surrender to the fact that *any* path forward implied pain and badness.

Once you've accepted that, the consequence of your choices doesn't seem as severe, if that makes sense.

You're putting a lot of focus on her, what she says, what she does, and trying to distill the hidden meaning from her seemingly contradictory behaviors. That path only leads to frustration.

As Sandi has spelled out for you, her issues with you are deep seated and long running.

You focus, ideally, will be this:

1) Understand and articulate (to yourself) her *long term* complaints. If you don't feel you have a grasp on them, let's explore it. If you do truly feel you understand what she was upset about long term, what made her resentful, then proceed.

2) Evaluate the complaints. Just because something bothered her about you doesn't mean the complaint or criticism was valid. If it bothers the hell out of her that you wear shorts in the summer instead of long pants, and wearing shorts is important to you, then that's really her issue to deal with and not yours, or you can open yourself to some form of compromise. Point is, there's a spectrum for complaints to totally reasonable and well-founded to irrational and batshit crazy, and you don't want to respond to the crazy ones -- that's where you have to be assertive and establish your boundaries. Sometimes your own yardstick is not effective at evaluating how reasonable a particular complaint is, so it can be useful to discuss with an IC, group of friends, or here. Often an LBS will give too much weight to BS complaints.

3) For the complaints you agree with that bother you as well, chances are they'll bother anyone you interact with on a long term basis. Come up with a plan for yourself to address them. Make the plan reasonable. If you think you're too beta, don't make your plan to suddenly become Tarzan. That will only frustrate you and make you feel worse. For anything you want to improve, evaluate where you are on a 10 point scale. If you're a 2, focus on being a 3. If you're a 3 focus on being a 4. Small, incremental improvements.

The focus of this plan is entirely on you. If you're being the man you want to be, then W will either see and appreciate that, or she won't. Either way, you'll know you're living with integrity and being true to yourself, and in that context her decisions won't really matter.

Acc

[rminer]

Thanks for the well wishes. I had a British friend in college and she used that saying quite often. I always got a kick out of it!


I'm sure it will come in to focus over time but right now it is still a bit foggy. The good news is I'm not protecting her any more. No more excuses for her because she is doing this to herself. I am, however, still protecting the kids. At least in the sense that they see and feel as little of this as possible. They still are getting too much IMO.

It is all very draining.

[rminer]

Read all of it.

Hope that wasn't supposed to make me feel better about this sitch!

[LH19]

R,

I just wanted you to get a sense of what happens when you sweep the A under the rug.

[rminer]

I get the picture.

When I decide to go that route I will need more intel on her before I consider it. I've been advised that since she is in an A, any settlement would be more favorable if I could prove beyond a doubt she was the one breaking up the M. EA's are not truly considered A's around here apparently.

What I currently have is little more than innuendo as far a the courts would be concerned when it comes to a PA.