I have just done so good at not basing my well being on her actions or our interactions.
When you have a spouse that has never been any good at communications you learn to rely on "temp taking". More so than in an M/R were both are better at expressing themselves. 20 years of mindreading is difficult to discontinue.
That said I don't have to be emotionally attached to her "temp".
As I conduct my autopsy on the last several day's derailments, and yes I feel like I go derailed, I realize that the threat that there could be an OM is my kryptonite.
Looking for advice?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I went through a lot of personal stuff last week and this weekend and it has been a good reminder and healthy dose of perspective.
As I continue to work on myself and GAL, I can't help but want to explore any next phases. It's how I am wired. I try to be prepared and beats wallowing in the past, right?
So I have a question for those that may know. In sandi2 wonderful description of a WW there is a statement that I am curious about.
She says that W must suffer some sort of lose.
I agree. I am just wondering what that might look like to different people?
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
"*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog."
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Different losses for different people. The H does not have control over which loss will shake her out of the fantasy. However, as long as he enables the fantasy, the less likely she will not be shaken, IMHO.
I suggest that the first loss the WW experiences should be her H. In other words, she loses his emotional support (Giving her his time, attention, serving as a therapist or sound board or shoulder to cry on, being her BFF, rescuing her......such as, cleaning up her emotional mess, covering for her lies, etc.). She loses his physical support (helping her with home chores, watching the kids while she plays, running her errands, catering to her, cleaning up her physical messes, being her escort to public or family events, covering for her when she fails to fill her responsibilities, etc.). She loses his affection/intimacy (any form of physical touching - sex, hugs, kisses, snuggling, hand holding, etc.).
She loses his sweetness and tenderness in their interactions (Don't misunderstand what this means). She loses his availability. She loses his protection (to a point). She loses his provisions. There are more benefits that are provided in M. As a last resort, those benefits should be taken away. All of these demonstrate tough love in action, and may not be considered, by some, as DBing.
These particular losses may not shake some hardcore WW's from their fantasy. For some WW's, their loss may not be directly connected with the H. In other words, it is something the H had no control in taking away from the WW. For me, it was the loss of high respect from my adult children/family members.........but, it may not mean anything to another WW. Even when suffering from extreme losses, it just takes time for some WW's. There is no garantee that it will cause her to stay in the MR. WW's have a lot of stubborn pride about repentance. IMHO, there is no true reconciliation of hearts without repentance. Even when eyes are finally opened and even when the A ends.......they have a huge amount of work to do in their hearts, b/c of the length of time they've held negative feelings toward their H.
I want to point out that these actions the H may implement, are not intended as punishment. Some people may see these actions as control methods, but I see it as the H pulling out all the enabling factors he contributes to his W through their MR. These are the realistic results that come from a spouse's betrayal and their refusal to end the fantasy. When a WW is in the height of an A, she really does not see the negative side she could experience. Even when she believes she is thinking realistically and looking at all sides, she feels a life with the OM as her last chance at happiness and it outweighs any negative results. Her mind is clouded by all her fairy tale thinking......and all her negative feelings for her H, and she is blind to the true reality that comes from engaging in an A and tearing apart a family. She does not see herself as losing........as long as she is being enabled.
As long as her needs are met by the OM and her H........her fantasy will continue. She may have an accumulative loss that brings her to senses, or it may be a certain something that finally breaks the camel's back, so to speak. Whatever "it" may be, it has to be something so important to her that it tips the scales.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Someone posted awhile ago about things his wife told him after they reconciled and started piecing. What caught my attention about that post was the role reversal the two of them experienced during the process.
Initially, after BD she had him (her safety net) at home, wanting nothing more than to have her come back to him, and all the while she was going out with OM, partying it up, and had nothing to worry about because if her fantasy world fell apart she knew she had another man (H) waiting at home for her.
after about two years of focusing only on her, he finally had enough and started to get a life, started working out, making new friends, picked up sports, etc. He filled his life with things he wanted, put his focus on him and stopped focusing on what WW was doing. He was no longer a safety net for WW.
At some point during his journey to being a man only a fool would ever leave, WW's life started falling apart, she lost OM, no longer had husband, but was to prideful to let H know. She wasn't hanging out with friends, wasn't having fun, and was watching the man that wasn't good enough for her become too good for her. She even started going to movies alone just so that she wasn't at home all the time, trying to make H wonder where she was and what she was doing, etc. But he was no longer paying her any mind; while all her focus was on him (role reversal from beginning of sitch). Eventually she broke down, begged for his forgiveness and for reconciliation.
I tell you that story to demonstrate that she experienced loss, but it wasn't the loss of a single thing and the loss didn't occur in one day. She lost OM (but that didn't cause her to return to H), she lost H's attention, she knew she was going to lose H, it was a long process for her to experience enough loss to humbly return to husband and ask for forgiveness and be willing to do what ever it took to try again.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
I see the importance. I assume this applies to WAWs as well? This lack of loss is probably why I am in the same boat again after 4 years.
As a reminder, W had OEA 4 years ago. Flash forward and she BD last July that she wanted trial S. Expecting me to move out. I said forget it. After going dark (loss) and LRT she stated that she had been going through a lot and things began to go back to normal. No remorse. No real piecing. Just not more threat.
After losing my dad in November during a fight she states that she was moving out of the MBR and that when school gets out she was moving out.
I didn't object and just pulled away. More GAL. I'm working on being a man only a fool would ever leave. Understanding that regardless of what happens it is the best thing to do.
Well, I don't know if it was less pressure or what, but she becomes extra nice. More respect, concern and general niceness. Just no affection.
My concern is that once her deadline occurs and in the event that she decides to stay. I mean who wouldn't ? What if she wants to just phase back into business as usual? I want to avoid the mistakes I made before I discovered DB. I want the loss. I want remorse. I want piecing and proper reconciliation.
I just imagine W skipping the hard work.
What do I do?
BTW, sandi, I don't see what you described as controlling or manipulative. It may be a side effect but it is part of GAL and appropriate.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
I am not familiar with your sitch, so I'm making these suggestions having no idea what your current status actually is, but based on your last post, I'm assuming in house S.
Because this is her second episode, I personally wouldn't reconcile until I knew she understood the gravity of her actions and I was sure that she was 100% in. actually, I wouldn't take her back period, but I also understand the desire save ones marriage, so I wouldn't fault anyone for trying again.
My recommendation would be to continue with your GAL, she doesn't just get to have you back because she decided, and I wouldn't hide the fact that your ok with not getting back together. I would tell her that you don't think you can trust that she won't do this again in the future, and you are not sure that you can trust her.
Let her sweat it out. Live your own life and don't invite her into it. One of three things will eventually happen, either you will decide to end the M, she will end the M on her own, or she will repent for what she has done and her actions will show that she is willing to do anything to be with you.
M - 9 1/2 years 5/5/16 - Bomb drop - 3 week EA 10/31/16 - We sold house 01/10/18 - D Finalized
RR17 you need to take the tact that your old marriage is done. Over. Either you move forward with a new relationship with her or someone else.
My WW went through that about 6 weeks ago. "Cant we just go make to the way things were?" What she meant by that is that we went back to being just roommates. That she didn't care or bother with what i was doing and vice versa. Then she could be free to have her private, online friendships. We'd put back up the facade of being a married couple but we'd be to strangers living together.
I told her flat out. No. Either we start a new healthy relationship or we split up. That I was not open to any other option.
Do not let her slip back into the old patterns. My advice would be to ask her what her plan is once the deadline comes and goes.
My wife worked on her resume for a few days. Then never finished it. That was nearly 2 months ago. I asked about it once. She made some excuse about getting stuck on the summary. I haven't asked her about it again in weeks.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I am not familiar with your sitch, so I'm making these suggestions having no idea what your current status actually is, but based on your last post, I'm assuming in house S.
Because this is her second episode, I personally wouldn't reconcile until I knew she understood the gravity of her actions and I was sure that she was 100% in. actually, I wouldn't take her back period, but I also understand the desire save ones marriage, so I wouldn't fault anyone for trying again.
My recommendation would be to continue with your GAL, she doesn't just get to have you back because she decided, and I wouldn't hide the fact that your ok with not getting back together. I would tell her that you don't think you can trust that she won't do this again in the future, and you are not sure that you can trust her.
Let her sweat it out. Live your own life and don't invite her into it. One of three things will eventually happen, either you will decide to end the M, she will end the M on her own, or she will repent for what she has done and her actions will show that she is willing to do anything to be with you.
Although an in-house S is not official, you are correct.
Her increase of courtesy, respect and overall niceness is confusing. Perhaps she is test driving some sort of future friendship. IDK
As for your suggestions? That is my plan.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
? What if she wants to just phase back into business as usual?