Newbie In Need Of Guidance #2

[LH19]

I’m sure a PI can get you what you are looking for as far as evidence.

[CW2017]

I have bookmarked p.5 of this thread. Abs marvellous stuff

[rminer]

She is unhappy in the marriage and on some level wants to leave it. At the same time, she doesn't want to be the bad guy and be responsible for breaking up the family, so she's looking for any excuse to pin that responsibility on you. If you're the bad guy she doesn't need to be.

I agree that I am in a no win situation at this point. I'm currently looking to turn the tables a bit and see if I can improve my standing in her eyes. There are times I can still see in her eyes or hear in her voice that she still cares at some level. How deep that is buried is another question, but I still think there is hope. I just need to find the path there.

I know most here will say that I am grasping at straws, but I've known this woman virtually all of my life and intimately for 33 years. I know the look in her eyes and tone of her voice when she is showing true care for me. It is still there occasionally, but as I said, can I bring it to the surface?

The only ones she will be able to make me out to be the bad guy to are her "friends" and herself. I have had conversations with all of my kids the past week except S8 and all of them are on my side. That is a terrible way to put it, but that is the way it was said to me. S23 said that if this ends in D, my W will be "dead to me." Scary thing is, he means it. This kid does not BS about anything.

I think she is starting to see the kids gravitate towards me, so I am hoping she will eventually see the loss and rethink what she is doing. No guarantees though.

Therefore, when you do nice things for her, she likes that you're addressed past complaints, but at the same time she resents that you're not playing your role as the bad guy.

I refuse to play the bad guy, at least in a mean spirited or vindictive way. My kids will see that I am doing everything possible to save this M. If it comes to us separating or D, I want everyone involved to understand who was the one who chose this course.

If you don't play to her historic complaints, then she resents you for your ongoing shortcomings (in her eyes) but appreciates that you're validating her decision to leave.

See the trap there? You can't win.

I see the trap. You are right I can't win at this battle, but I have to at least try to find a way to win the war (reconcile).

You focus, ideally, will be this:

1) Understand and articulate (to yourself) her *long term* complaints. If you don't feel you have a grasp on them, let's explore it. If you do truly feel you understand what she was upset about long term, what made her resentful, then proceed.

Let's explore a little bit then.

Most of her complaints that she has vocalized since this all started in November have been centered on how I don't make her feel loved, wanted or desired, I don’t listen to her and we don’t do anything with each other. I can see how she would think this if what the DR book says is true. We show love the way WE want to be loved and this is exactly how I believe we have been showing our love for each other.

I tell her and make physical contact to show my love. I touch her in certain ways and make suggestive comments to show I want and desire her.

She doesn't do these things much, but she did do things FOR me to show her love. It used to bother me that she didn't tell me she loved me spontaneously or give me hugs much. I finally realized this just wasn't her way and accepted it. It never dawned on me that this is how she wanted me to show my love too. Don't get me wrong, I did things for her, but the things I did were not always visible to her or unexpected.

She says I don't listen to her. This is BS, but not in her eyes. I listen, but as sandi said, I am not listening with my heart and letting her know I understand, at least not in a way that she recognizes. I can see this. Many things she says sound like complaints not only to me, but to the whole family. The WAY she says things have made it easy to overlook her needs and her tendency to justify wants as needs have contributed too. Some of the complaints are out of my/our control or simply not doable. Even though I have explained, by not listening with my heart and validating, I have fallen in to this trap.

She says we never do things together/spend time together and that we only do it when she arranges it. This is partially true. Her ideas and my ideas are different on this subject. She likes going out and doing things. So do I. We certainly don’t do it enough. The issue with this is that she will go do things with the kids and not invite me, or invite me at the last second when I am filthy from working and then say that I don't want to go. This comes from when I was building the house. At that time I was very focused on the house and this was mostly true. Since then I have asked her to tell me ahead of time so I can make plans to go, but she rarely does. When she does do this I go the vast majority of the time.

She will also spend the "extra" money on her and the kids, leaving nothing for us to go out with. We have talked about this many times, but she doesn't seem to understand there is not an unlimited supply.

She is very much a “live in the now” sort of person and doesn’t give much thought about how what she does now will affect the future. When I suggest things that don’t cost money, she isn’t all that interested.

She does do most of the planning, so she does have a valid point when she says she arranges things.

2) Evaluate the complaints.

She does have some very valid complaints. I can’t disagree there. Before coming here I would have, but since then I have looked at how I do things and can see where she is coming from. I don’t always agree, but I could handle it differently.

Do you think I am starting to get the picture? If so, how do I change them now?

According to the program, I am not supposed to ask for dates, do things for her that a H would do or tell her I love her/hug her. Communication is for the most part superficial, but I am trying to get her to open up a bit by the way I phrase questions.

What would be your suggestion at this point?

[Accuray]

What would be your suggestion at this point?

My suggestion would really be to take the spotlight off of W and focus on you. The challenge is that due to your current situation, trying to correct the sins of the past by pursuing her will make things worse versus better because she has a roadblock up that will prevent her from being able to receive.

She needs to have space to process her feelings and flush out her resentment without feeling pursued.

If you use that time to address her complaints in your own life, it will be noticed, but you have to do it *for you* and not peacock it in front of her or she won't believe it.

She complained you didn't plan enough activities far enough in advance? Start planning things for you and the kids to do, and plan it in advance. She'll notice.

It sounds like your analysis of her complaints is fundamentally a "Five Love Languages" issue so I definitely recommend getting that book and reading it.

Acc

[rminer]

My suggestion would really be to take the spotlight off of W and focus on you. The challenge is that due to your current situation, trying to correct the sins of the past by pursuing her will make things worse versus better because she has a roadblock up that will prevent her from being able to receive.

The thing is, I'm NOT pursuing. At all. The most that could be considered pursuit is asking how her day was. I will engage in conversation when she starts it, but I let her do most of the talking.

If you use that time to address her complaints in your own life, it will be noticed, but you have to do it *for you* and not peacock it in front of her or she won't believe it.

I'm not peacocking anything. I go about my business and so does she.

She complained you didn't plan enough activities far enough in advance? Start planning things for you and the kids to do, and plan it in advance. She'll notice.

She complained I didn't do enough with her. I complained that she didn't give me enough notice to plan to participate.

It sounds like your analysis of her complaints is fundamentally a "Five Love Languages" issue so I definitely recommend getting that book and reading it.

I will look for it.

[rminer]

The first two paragraphs answered what I was looking for; although it wasn’t the answer I wanted. I was really hoping that you would say something like “Hey! Stupid! Show her more attention and this will all be over!” As I said, I was hoping.

I’ve been trying to remember any signs that she was disappointed that I stopped doing those things, but I can’t recall any. The only thing that tells me that I should have kept doing it is her bringing it up multiple times. From what you said, that would have been the wrong move, so I am sticking with what you say.

As I said, the only outward reaction is what D14 said – she was mad – and she could have been mad I stopped for any number of reasons I suppose. She never displayed this towards me, so I am taking D14’s word on it.

I am back and forth on which option to take. I don’t want to blow this thing up and drive her away permanently, but on the other hand, keeping this secret is wearing on me. I think about it way more than I should and I am tired of being suspicious of her every move. I haven’t snooped in a while because I was becoming obsessed with it and was killing me mentally. Mentally I am getting better but I still have a ways to go.

Right now it is probably best that I stick to the 37 Rules and make myself better. Would you agree?

To do this I will need to get better at GAL, I know. Outside of my kids I have no one to socialize with, so, after resisting many, many years, I’ve created a Facebook profile. The plan is to try to reconnect with old friends. My question to you on this is should I try to “friend” my W? She still has a picture of the two of us as her profile picture, I assume to keep up appearances. Would it be wise for me to do the same?

I see two sides to this. It could show her I am living without her just fine and make her notice more. It could also stir negative feelings because some of the people I would/could connect with she could be jealous of. There are some girls from the past I think she would feel this way about that I will most certainly come in to contact with because they were part of the circle of friends I used to have. One of them she is sure I had a romantic interlude with in college, which I didn’t. We were merely good friends.

With all of that being said, I have a new potential problem that has cropped up.

A few days ago I was digging through the recycling to find paper to start a fire and I ran across an envelope with her writing on it. On the envelope was a travel website address, the name of a resort, dates and prices. It appears that she is planning a vacation next month. D21 saw that she was tagged in a post from her enabling friend saying this was going to be fun, referring to somewhere warm. Her other friend who she thinks should get a D was also tagged, so D21 thinks it is just the three of them.

Thing is, we can’t afford this, so she is getting the money from somewhere else. Either she has been skimming off of the grocery money or the OM is footing the bill if he is going. Either one is possible.

I have been starting to question whether the A is really “just” an EA instead of a PA for several reasons. When I was snooping, I saw she was texting him the entire time when she would go out. Also, she doesn’t usually drive when she goes out – her enabling friend picks her up and brings her home. They always come back shortly after the bars close. This would take a lot of planning and effort on her part with the texts and a lot of cooperation from the enabling friend. I’m not sure she would go to these lengths because she doesn’t think I know about the A and she doesn’t know I can see her text logs. Besides that, she has been getting a little more carless lately.

The kids also tell me that she really doesn’t go out during the day unless it is to the store. She is gone the normal amounts of time, brings home the normal amounts of items or some of the kids are with her. He also works during the day. I’m not saying it isn’t a PA or wasn’t one at one time and she decided to stop that part. I’m just questioning if it is now.

With that information, what do you think I should do about the vacation? She has told no one about it, so should I confront her or just say nothing about it until she brings it up? My though is that me saying something early could drive things deeper underground, but potentially stop her from going. By not saying anything, she will surely be going. She will have to say something to me at some point about it and when she does I feel like telling her that since she can afford to take a vacation and go out to the bar every Saturday night while I am struggling to pay bills, she can start contributing financially because I will no longer be paying her student loans or credit cards.

My end goal is to preserve the M, so this is an opportunity to set a boundary and be Alpha, but I can almost guarantee that she will go no matter what is said.

When you said that she was going to make this hard, you were certainly not kidding.

[Accuray]

Rminer,

Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?

It’s really not your place in any circumstance to tell her that she can or cannot go on a vacation right? You can tell her you can’t afford to give her money for it if she asks, but if she somehow has the money that’s her business right?

If you then seek to punish her by taking away something you’ve been doing forever like making student loan payments she’s probably going to resent being treated that way.

If you need to have a budget discussion with her about how each of you contribute to loans, credit cards, and groceries you should — but it should not be as retribution for planning to take a vacation with a friend.

I think you need to wait for her to mention it before you say or do anything. If you then seek to force her to stay home she is going to resent you for that right?

Let’s say she goes on a vacation with OM and you hire a PI who gets pictures and undeniable proof. What would you do or say then?

Think a move ahead, consider what *you* want and what your boundaries are. You can’t control her, she’s going to find a way to do whatever she wants. So what will you do? You can only control what you will do.

Acc

[SteveLW]

Rminer,

Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?

It’s really not your place in any circumstance to tell her that she can or cannot go on a vacation right? You can tell her you can’t afford to give her money for it if she asks, but if she somehow has the money that’s her business right?

If you then seek to punish her by taking away something you’ve been doing forever like making student loan payments she’s probably going to resent being treated that way.

If you need to have a budget discussion with her about how each of you contribute to loans, credit cards, and groceries you should — but it should not be as retribution for planning to take a vacation with a friend.

I think you need to wait for her to mention it before you say or do anything. If you then seek to force her to stay home she is going to resent you for that right?

Let’s say she goes on a vacation with OM and you hire a PI who gets pictures and undeniable proof. What would you do or say then?

Think a move ahead, consider what *you* want and what your boundaries are. You can’t control her, she’s going to find a way to do whatever she wants. So what will you do? You can only control what you will do.

Acc

Very well said. I like what you said about being an Alpha. And how that should drive your behavior. I'll need to remember that when I would be tempted to snoop on my wife. That is not what an Alpha does.

[rminer]

Really you shouldn’t know about any vacation discussions because you found out about it by rifling through the trash. Would someone who is being more alpha rifle through the trash to find out information about his wife?

I wasn't "rifling through the trash."

As I said, I was using paper from the recycling to start a fire. It was just one of the pieces of paper I grabbed. She knows that this is what paper in the recycling bin is used for in the winter. Has nothing to do with alpha or beta.


She is a Stay At Home Mom. Unless the money is coming from the OM, she is using money that is meant to feed the family for her own pleasure. That bothers me.


I understand what you are saying though.

[SteveLW]

rminer, there is going to be a lot of things that bother you. Some of the things I've found since BD:

-Nude pictures sent to OM #1 (EA).
-Paid account and full profiles on two dating sites.
-Messages sent to guys on both sites AFTER I confronted her about the profiles/accounts.
-Sexual messages from OM #2 (EA).
-Several sex toys that I was not privy too.

Everyone of these discoveries was like a hot pickaxe too the chest. These are on top of some very hurtful things she has said to me in a very matter of fact way. Things like "the thought of having sex with you is like the thought of having sex with X" where X was a very unflattering person. Or "when the preacher was talking about how sex is a gift for you and your spouse and you need to be committed to the person you took vows with, it made me very sad because I don't think I'll ever feel that way here". There are a dozen more. Again, the words hurt, but the matter-of-fact way in which she stated them, as if she was reciting her social security number, was even more hurtful.

So buckle in. You are in a long ride full of things that are going to bother you. Even hurt you. It is all part of the process.