INTEL is knowing, it's fact for a D, it enables you place your position. Knowing your S is wayward is important to know but once you know and have the INTEL the rest is snooping.
SNOOPING is pooping, as AS says you interpret what you snoop and it can useless or misleading.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
The situation is strained b/c of your thoughts. Finding balance in the newcomer's emotional responses seems to be their biggest challenge. I am glad Another Stander said what he did, b/c I had originally written the same thing.....and decided to delete it, b/c I am usually the person who bursts the enthusiasm bubble. So, I held back and did not fully express my suspcious WW nature.
We aren't trying to kill your hope for a better ending to this situation. We are trying to tell you not do go flying high through the air without a net. If she has legitimately changed, that's wonderful........and a bit of a miracle, too. And here's the thing, Steve. How long will it last? Sex is very important to a MR. It sets the tone. But a long-term relationship has to have other things, too. If you are basing most of this on her mood........then what happens when the mood changes?
You've mentioned your changes, and I need to go back and read b/c I mainly remember you changed how you reacted to her actions. What other changes have you made in the man? You are totally focused on her......and I can see why. She keeps you distracted, doesn't she? You are too busy watching her actions and reactions. You are possibly putting too much weight on her time spent with the lady from church. Nut it sure doesn't hurt to pray that that lady will be a good influence. You are placing too much weight on her sudden interest in sex. Maybe the lady from church is giving her great advice and encouragement.....I hope she is. Maybe your W is really trying to turn things around.....I hope she is. I'm just saying that it is highly unusual for a WW to suddenly make this drastic of a change, and it coming from a changed heart. If she made a spitital repentence.....had a spiritual revival, then I could see her making a humble comeback. A spiritual high can carry you for weeks, and is wonderful healing for depression.......but if you don't maintain that spiritual level, the excitement of renewal can taper off pretty quickly. Has she humbly apologized for her behavior, and asked for your forgiveness? Did you see any signs of remorse in her? Has she talked to you about any of it? Or have you mainly seen a sudden change in her sexual appetite? Even with repentence, I think WW's have to work on their issues in the MR. Repentance is just the first step in healing.
What other changes have you seen in her? Do you see glimpses of disrespectful feelings she holds for you? It can sneak through in her tone of voice, her remarks, facial expressions (rolling her eyes, the way she holds her mouth, body posturing, etc). There are many ways a disrespectful attitude shows. Maybe you see none of this in her......I hope there is not any felt in her heart.
How is her depression? When she doesn't know what is causing her depression, she starts looking to find the source....b/c you can get very weary of feeling unhappy. If there is nothing legit that jumps out and says, "I am the cause of unhappiness"......she looks at her H, and thinks he is the problem. He is the closest to her. If he were different, or if it wasn't for him.....she'd be happy. Then that starts her going into a direction that can really tear apart the M. It takes a lot of maturity and a healthy mindset to not resent the cause of unhappiness.
Some women stay in a MR for decades, resenting the he!l out her H, b/c she blames him for her lack of happiness. In some instances, she has legit reasons to resent him.....but I won't get off into all of that. I'll just say I believe there is a difference in the wayward mindset.......and a woman who has suffered pain from a H who was mean, selfish, neglectful, and so on....to the point it drove her away from him, in order to be safe and survive on her own. This woman usually doesn't leave her children, especially if the man is abusive and she can get them out of that situation. The walk-away W is more logical, can see her situation more realistically (for the most part), and sets about to do what is best for the sake of herself and her children. The only "hidden" agenda she may have, is to escape and stay safely away from the harm of her H. Her heart may be fearful, hurt, or angry, but she does not hold the self-centered attitude of a wayward. She does not lie, deceive, cheat, betray, and hide the truth.....due to her own inappropriate behavior. She does not selfishly follow lustful temptations, and/or leave her little children in order to live like GGW. She usually does not have someone waiting in the wings, when she leaves her H.
The wayward wife usually has a hidden agenda before she leaves her M. Which means, something is inticing her to leave her M.....and maybe even her kids. She has been looking around.....or is already engaged in an A of some type. Some women can keep this hidden until she moves out, and act as if she has just started dating. When the truth is that something was going on before she ever left her H. Some WW's just want to go wild and do whatever strikes her fancy, without any responsibilities. She feels entitled. This is her time to do what she wants. Before a WW leaves her M, she has a fantasy of seeing herself dating, or in a R with OM, or some type of lifestyle.....that, for the most part, is completely unrealistic. At this point, she is rebelling and her brain is in a "fantasy fog" where she does not think logically, nor take responsibility, nor perceive the serious affect her actions will have on her family. She is in la-la land! Her heart is selfish and deceitful. She betrays trust, lies, cheats, hides the truth, and isn't interested in anything that does not benefit her some way. She tries to justify her wayward actions by blaming her H. When at the height of her rebellion, selfishness is at the center of everything she does!
BTW, the WAW and WW are not differentiated in the DR book. It is JMHO, that the approach to a WW situation often requires tough love, b/c of her willful disrespect. Since a woman's love for her H is tied to the level of respect she holds for him.....the H will need to gain her respect, before her heart will soften and love him again.
Well, I didn't mean to get off into all of that ^^^^^^^ and make a long post.
Try to calm yourself down. Make sure your net is there to catch you when/if you fall. You keep the safety net there, by learning and being realistic about your situation. And let me say this......and I mean no disrespect to Mort or any other sources you've read. If you are going back & forth from DB to his or other material.......you are likely going to get confused. This is not a case where you learn the top ten tricks to improve your MR, which are usually very pursuing behaviors. By the time you come here, the M is looking at the real possibility of D, and in the majority of cases, it involves a wayward spouse. That's just my opinion, of course, based on the accounts I've read from newcomers.
Today and tonight.....do NOT take any action toward anything. When your emotions are spinning, you'll do the wrong thing!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Steve, I remember you saying you were very critical, very belittling and that you were irritable with or around your wife a lot.
You "explained" that it was due to having insufficient sex, though I hope you see the connection between your behavior and hers.
Chicken or the egg, so to speak.
You keep doing you.
If you KNOW with 100% certainty that any form of physical affair would end the marriage,
I could see snooping till you have confirmation of it.
But if you feel you may have played a part in her interest in feeling desirable, then stay on that track and again,
you keep doing you. You are all you control and you want to know you did your best.
The rest is just self inflicted pain.
Keep at your own work and know that she may not believe you have really changed, for a lot longer than you think she should need.
You want her to trust that this new you, is the real you -and that she can rely on your treating her the way she deserved.
make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
This is a letter a WAW wrote to a LBS husband, who said he had changed. He wondered why his WAW had not yet returned to the marriage and he wondered why she'd have ANY interest in OM...
FROM WAW to a LBS (not her own H, but a guy on these boards)...
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.-
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run. Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and an OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP.
Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her - and really have recommitted to her, but you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So I initiated a discussion. I know, never do that when you are spinning.
She offered to let me see her PMs in the singing app. I refused. She then read some to me. All innocent. Mostly people asking her to sing specific songs with them.
One guy messages her quite often, but it was all platonic. When I asked if OM2 still messaged her (she still sings on the app with him occasionally) she said yes, and admitted that some of them are inappropriate. Mostly about things (sexual) that he and his girlfriend do. I bit my tongue and didn't tell her what I thought of him doing that to another man's wife. But that could be the basis of why she has been so insatiable lately.
Still, I regret that all of this happened. We just spent a nice lunch time together, eating some warmed up leftovers from her birthday dinner (I got my bonus yesterday so I disguised it as a bonus celebration dinner) last night. She had taken a nap from about 9am-noon today and woke up in a much better frame of mind.
OM2 is still in my head though. Though she claims he was never more than a friend, it bothers me that a guy that supposedly got cheated on by his wife would behave this way with another man's wife. But then nothing should shock me about people anymore.
Thanks for the responses. I just don't have it in me right now to respond to anyone. I am spiraling and going to a very dark place right now. I feel like just throwing in the towel, filing for D, and moving on with my life. I just don't know what to do anymore. I am 99.9% sure there is no PA. Just not possible with the smart devices on the house, and all of us being on Life360. But whether or not she is hiding an EA I have no idea. And can't control that. The more "snooping" or "intel" or whatever you want to call I've done has just caused her to, potentially, go more and more stealth.
Now that I've fallen off the not-discussing-things wagon, I have a feeling I am going to initiate more and more of them.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Wow those were some amazing posts by Sandi and 25, even having read their writings for all these years I still find them fascinating.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
So obviously what the problem is last night and this morning is that she turns 50 today. She is not dealing with this well. In fact, her impeding 50th birthday is what precipitated a lot of our problems.
Steve, I sense that you are very analytical. You want to break this down into an equation and you want to solve it for X. X = _____ , let's work this out and figure out what "blank" is. Zoloft? MLC? Menopause? Turning 50, that must be it! Hey I get it, man did I scramble looking for the answer in my sitch as well. But you've got to let go of that, there is no one reason and there is no X you can solve for. Your W probably doesn't even know herself exactly why she's on this path. All you can do is work on yourself and give her time and space. Become the best "you" that you can be, the "spouse only a fool would leave".
Quote:
Just read several articles about women turning 50. So many markers of my wife: becoming a cougar and going after younger guys, feeling that something needs to change (IE her marital status), reawakened sexuality, concerns about looks (apparently women either ease up on this or focus more on this, for her it is the latter), focusing more on self and less on others (this is so contrary to who she's been until now).
All of that describes my XW exactly. She was almost 50 at BD, she suddenly started dressing nicer and wearing sexy underwear, started getting her hair and nails done, focused more on herself and less on others, etc. etc. etc. But I don't know (and neither do you) what all of that meant, if anything. And it doesn't really matter unless you are looking for excuses to "blame" her or something she's going through, and not do any work on yourself because of it.
The bottom line is none of us is perfect. We all need to work on ourselves, and we need to keep doing it because it never ends. We can excuse this away as "something he/she is going through" or we can use it as an opportunity to do what we can about what WE contributed to the breakdown of the M. I'm a firm believer that the vast majority of our sitches are caused because BOTH spouses were at fault and went on autopilot and didn't put the work in to make the M work. But we can only work on our part of that and give them time and space to work on theirs.
I feel like just throwing in the towel, filing for D, and moving on with my life.
You want that because you want it to all be over. You don't want to be miserable and sad and depressed. I mean who does? But here's the thing, throwing in the towel and filing for D won't fix that and make you feel better. It's more likely to make things worse.
You're still very early in your sitch. I know you won't take any consolation from this (because I didn't when I was where you are) but you CAN and WILL get better. A lot better. But in the meantime, just break things down. Concentrate on getting through today. That is it. Don't worry or think about tomorrow or next week or next month. Just get through today and deal with tomorrow when it gets here. And if a whole day is too much, then half a day, or an hour, or 5 minutes. Break life down into manageable chunks.
If you start thinking about suicide and especially if you start working out a suicide plan, then go to the doc right away and get an evaluation. There's no shame in it, I did it and many others here did too. I ended up on Viibryd and it may very well have saved my life. In about 2 weeks I went from feeling like I no longer had a soul (hard to describe, almost like there was nothing but a dark hole where my soul should be) to feeling almost completely normal and very much my pre-BD self. Depression is not something you can just pull yourself out of. It is a disease that needs treatment. It's one thing to be "down" about your sitch, but if you're slipping into depression then that is a much more serious issue.
By the way I weaned off the A/D's after about 6 months and never looked back, so it doesn't have to be permanent. Some people fear being "stuck" on them but it doesn't have to be that way.
did you read the letter I posted, from a WAW? Because the next thing you posted was about snooping and you looking at HER behavior. And trying to decode HER behavior...
The good news - and I mean that, is that Unlike many cases of a spouse with an outside interest or an EA,
you actually have a piece of this which you CAN control and a part of things you can own.
How's Your work really going?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Well I guess I owe you all an update. Been a while.
We continue to be headed in the right direction. Wife has mentioned several times how she isn't engaging with anyone online. I know don't believe her but at this point I do. All snooping has ceased even though I have had ample opportunities to do so. We continue to be intimate about once a week now. She does seemed to have cooled down a bit in that regard.
She continues to house hunt. We looked at 6 houses on Saturday. She is still looking for the one that just clicks. I could live in any of the 6 we looked at, though there is 1 that was a bit more than I think I can afford.
We attended MC last Tuesday. It had been a month due to schedule conflicts. The MC was really surprised at our progress. She even asked my wife point blank what direction she was leaning, either staying in the marriage or leaving. W said: "More staying in the marriage at this point." All of her actions continue to agree with that. Including planning family vacation later this year.
I think the only thing that bothers me at this point is Sandi's point above about her not having that pertinent wake up event, and her seemingly lack of remorse for her behavior.
Also, I have quit rescuing her! There have been two fairly significant situations in the last few weeks where normally I would have jumped in and done the work to save her. I am letting her fail this time. It is difficult, especially in one of the cases, but I am just staying out of it and letting her deal with the fallout.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I know, never do that when you are spinning.